Is it time to throw out multiculturalism

[Leafless]

"In the shadow of Sept. 11, it is time to confront the unsettling truth that radical multiculturalism creates tribes that could destroy the society that produced it."

I to am convinced that the Liberal concept of multiculturalism involving freedom, equality and tolerance has been distorted into their opposites.

For instance it is acceptable under our definition of free speech to attack Christianity, but say anything critical of Islam and you could risk being charged with hate speech.

By accepting this Liberal concept of multiculturalism as in the federal public service with it's twisted qualifications normally dependent on a variety of skills as been readjusted to include primary qualifications derived from an obsolete minority language that form the base of federal hiring practices.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...;k=9844&p=1

Official Multiculturalism should be eliminated before it's to late.

[jdobbin]

Official Multiculturalism should be eliminated before it's to late.

What do you suggest as an alternative?

[Renegade]

What is Multiculturalism?

Canadian multiculturalism is fundamental to our belief that all citizens are equal. Multiculturalism ensures that all citizens can keep their identities, can take pride in their ancestry and have a sense of belonging. Acceptance gives Canadians a feeling of security and self-confidence, making them more open to, and accepting of, diverse cultures. The Canadian experience has shown that multiculturalism encourages racial and ethnic harmony and cross-cultural understanding, and discourages ghettoization, hatred, discrimination and violence.

Through multiculturalism, Canada recognizes the potential of all Canadians, encouraging them to integrate into their society and take an active part in its social, cultural, economic and political affairs.

link

As defined above, I see nothing wrong in the goal or idealogy of accomodation. What I would take exception to is going beyond simply not passing laws which do not discrimminate on a cultural basis. By this I mean, that we should not be funding cultural programs. Those should be left for the cultures themselves to fund. We should not promote discrimminatory practices in the name of promoting diversity.

[Leafless]

Official Multiculturalism should be eliminated before it's to late.

What do you suggest as an alternative?

A return to normal provincial and federal control of minority concerns prior to the 'Charter of rights and Freedoms' along with a form of guaranteed assimilation dedicated to Canadian national values especially directed at any new immigrant but generally encouraged and promoted for all Canadians to harbour.

[Renegade]

a form of guaranteed assimilation dedicated to Canadian national values.

Exactly what are "Canadian national values"?

[jdobbin]

A return to normal provincial and federal control of minority concerns prior to the 'Charter of rights and Freedoms' along with a form of guaranteed assimilation dedicated to Canadian national values especially directed at any new immigrant but generally encouraged and promoted for all Canadians to harbour.

I'm not sure what that means.

[Argus]

a form of guaranteed assimilation dedicated to Canadian national values.

Exactly what are "Canadian national values"?

You would not have asked that thirty years ago. They were more evident then. But thirty years of liberalism have done their best to eliminate all traces of our national values. Liberals don't even like the word "values" much less the concept that we all have the same ones. Worse still is the idea our values are in some way better than the values of, say, the Syrians or the Liberians or the Chinese.

Trumpeting or even mentioning our values or culture, therefore, was seen as offensive to immigrants, or simply anyone who didn't share them, and so over the decades, mostly in small ways, but again and again and again, traces of Canada's history, of its past, of its culture of its native values, have been wiped away or driven underground.

[Renegade]

You would not have asked that thirty years ago. They were more evident then. But thirty years of liberalism have done their best to eliminate all traces of our national values. Liberals don't even like the word "values" much less the concept that we all have the same ones. Worse still is the idea our values are in some way better than the values of, say, the Syrians or the Liberians or the Chinese.

Trumpeting or even mentioning our values or culture, therefore, was seen as offensive to immigrants, or simply anyone who didn't share them, and so over the decades, mostly in small ways, but again and again and again, traces of Canada's history, of its past, of its culture of its native values, have been wiped away or driven underground.

I think you would have to go back further than 30 years to find a homogenous Canadian society with a uniform set of values. Yes, Canada has evolved toward openness and accommodation so that it set of values are ambigious and ill-defined.

Still, if you want to obligate immigrants to adopting a set of "Canadian national values", someone should define what that is.

[Michael Hardner]

someone should define what that is.

Indeed, someone - everyone - should always ask Leafless to clearly define what he's talking about as it can be very murky. In a recent thread, he suggested that France - a country that expects immigrants to eventually ascribe to their culture - is a country that practices multiculturalism.

These types of posts pine for a homogenous Canada that may or may not have existed in the past, but can't practically happen in the future unless immigration is severely restricted or eliminated. They say they want immigrants to adopt Canadian values, but have no suggestion on how to identify these values or how to enforce the reculturing of immigrants.

How about some more details, Leafless ?

[Riverwind]

How about some more details, Leafless ?

I think this is what he has in mind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Immigration_Act_of_1923

[jdobbin]

You would not have asked that thirty years ago. They were more evident then. But thirty years of liberalism have done their best to eliminate all traces of our national values. Liberals don't even like the word "values" much less the concept that we all have the same ones. Worse still is the idea our values are in some way better than the values of, say, the Syrians or the Liberians or the Chinese.

Trumpeting or even mentioning our values or culture, therefore, was seen as offensive to immigrants, or simply anyone who didn't share them, and so over the decades, mostly in small ways, but again and again and again, traces of Canada's history, of its past, of its culture of its native values, have been wiped away or driven underground.

What was Canada's culture like thirty years ago?

[August1991]

These types of posts pine for a homogenous Canada that may or may not have existed in the past, but can't practically happen in the future unless immigration is severely restricted or eliminated.

Restricting immigration is only part of it...

I have the impression that Argus and Leafless want to return to some imaginary world. A world without cheap air travel, the Internet, diverse magazines and newspapers, satellite TV, cheap international phone calls, without restaurants, imported items.

That world is long gone and it never really existed. Immigration didn't cause these changes. Modern technology did, and people being better off.

The suggestion that the government can turn culture on or off is almost laughable if it weren't frightening. There are millions of people in Canada each doing whatever they happen to want to. The cumulative effect of what they do is called "culture". We have "multiculturalism" because this is in the nature of the modern world. This is not something controlled by the government. Canada is not a totalitarian state.

We have discussed immigration in other threads and if the argument here is that we should restrict immigration, then so be it. Canadians are going to travel around the world nonetheless. We cannot cut ourselves off from the rest of the world.

Let's be serious. Canada and other western countries face a specific threat from a group of fanatical Muslims. Dealing with that threat doesn't mean we have to pose silly questions about multiculturalism. Instead, we merely have to think seriously about what a liberal society is, and why freedom is important.

[Argus]

Official Multiculturalism should be eliminated before it's to late.

What do you suggest as an alternative?

I would suggest emphasising Canadian values and culture, an end to any taxpayer money that aids cultural or ethnic identity politics or the perpetuation of foreign cultures through festivals, school or community centres, an end to Muslim immigration, and a two thirds cut to total immigration. All future immigrants, including family members, should be required to posess adequate Canadian language skills.

[Argus]

The suggestion that the government can turn culture on or off is almost laughable if it weren't frightening. There are millions of people in Canada each doing whatever they happen to want to. The cumulative effect of what they do is called "culture". We have "multiculturalism" because this is in the nature of the modern world. This is not something controlled by the government. Canada is not a totalitarian state.

Since you're so outword looking, August, I assume you agree that all of Quebec's language laws should be abolished, including those which make it difficult for children to attend English schools, and that Quebec should cease to run its own immigration system based almost solely on ensuring immigrants speak French.

[jdobbin]

I would suggest emphasising Canadian values and culture, an end to any taxpayer money that aids cultural or ethnic identity politics or the perpetuation of foreign cultures through festivals, school or community centres, an end to Muslim immigration, and a two thirds cut to total immigration. All future immigrants, including family members, should be required to posess adequate Canadian language skills.

I thought all immigrants who wished to be Canadian citizens had to be able to speak English or French.

[jbg]

Official Multiculturalism should be eliminated before it's to late.

What do you suggest as an alternative?

A melting pot, where all would be Canadians first, and then pay homage to their ancestral past.

[Argus]

You would not have asked that thirty years ago. They were more evident then. But thirty years of liberalism have done their best to eliminate all traces of our national values. Liberals don't even like the word "values" much less the concept that we all have the same ones. Worse still is the idea our values are in some way better than the values of, say, the Syrians or the Liberians or the Chinese.

Trumpeting or even mentioning our values or culture, therefore, was seen as offensive to immigrants, or simply anyone who didn't share them, and so over the decades, mostly in small ways, but again and again and again, traces of Canada's history, of its past, of its culture of its native values, have been wiped away or driven underground.

What was Canada's culture like thirty years ago?

I think someone else noted that probably isn't long enough. You'd probably have to go back to before Trudeau opened up immigration and expanded on Pearson's determination to break our historical ties with the UK.

And I don't think anyone especially wants to go back to that time. I don't think many people are that much afraid of a sprinkling of foreign cultures among us. What many don't like is being overwhelmed by foreign cultures, by having our cities, now including Toronto, soon to include Vancouver, populated by more foreign born people than by Canadians.

And I think people are especially concerned about groups which show little inclination to adapt to Canada, groups which essentially constitute rapidly expanding foreign populations within our borders which have cultures and values inimical to Canada's culture and values. And we have bent over backwards so as to accomodate these newcomers even to th extent of shrinking away from having any pride in our own cultural heritage for fear it will alienate the foreigners among us we now call Canadians.

But then Angelou's sentimental distortion of history is typical of the multicultural agenda, as anyone who's been on a North American campus in the past 30 years will recognize. The demands of multiculturalism have corrupted the curriculum, particularly in the arts and humanities and social sciences. As historian Keith Windschuttle says in his essay The Cultural War on Western Civilization: Until recent decades, most people raised in a western culture were taught that "Its art and its music were glories of its civilization." Literary critics, he says, once extolled the genius of western writers and their contributions to the betterment of the human condition. Nowadays, says Windschuttle, "much of the academic debate about western literary heritage claims that it is politically contaminated: Othello is ethnocentric; Paradise Lost is a feminist tragedy; Jane Eyre is both racist and sexist. Similarly, the teaching of western history has, in many cases, been reduced to a denunciation of the West.

Philosophers from Socrates to Hegel are regarded as "old, dead, white males" with nothing to say to the modern world; never mind that it was those dead, white men who articulated the concepts of freedom and tolerance that the new barbarians distort in perpetuating their anti-western program.

[daddyhominum]

I would suggest emphasising Canadian values and culture, an end to any taxpayer money that aids cultural or ethnic identity politics or the perpetuation of foreign cultures through festivals, school or community centres, an end to Muslim immigration, and a two thirds cut to total immigration. All future immigrants, including family members, should be required to posess adequate Canadian language skills.

I thought all immigrants who wished to be Canadian citizens had to be able to speak English or French.

That is true for skilled worker and family classes. You can take the test at http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/assess/index.html and see if you would get enough points .

But an entrepreneur who invests $400,000 or more in Canada can get in without a successfull test, afaik.

[Argus]

I thought all immigrants who wished to be Canadian citizens had to be able to speak English or French.

That is true for skilled worker and family classes.

No, actually it is not. You get a certain number of points for having Canadian language skills under the Skilled worker class, but it's not necessary to speak English or French in any category. And especially irrelevent in terms of children and spouses - there is no requirement they have any language skills whatever.

[Charles Anthony]

I have the impression that Argus and Leafless want to return to some imaginary world.

I know the feeling... but mine is a very different imaginary world.

Official Multiculturalism should be eliminated before it's to late.

What do you suggest as an alternative?

A melting pot, where all would be Canadians first, and then pay homage to their ancestral past.

Uhmm..... personally, I could not care less what people's patriotic allegiance happens to be. I care more about what people do and how they treat each other.

I don't think many people are that much afraid of a sprinkling of foreign cultures among us.

Somehow, I get the feeling that we do not have to go very far to find some of those people.

What many don't like is being overwhelmed by foreign cultures, by having our cities, now including Toronto, soon to include Vancouver, populated by more foreign born people than by Canadians.

Those "many" people do not include me. I do not care about anybody's culture. Canadians can wave any flag they want.

And I think people are especially concerned about groups which show little inclination to adapt to Canada, groups which essentially constitute rapidly expanding foreign populations within our borders which have cultures and values inimical to Canada's culture and values.

I was born here and, other than paying my taxes, I "show little inclination to adapt to Canada" too. Where do I fit into all of this multi-culturalism???

Imagine yourself in an international airport and surrounded by a continuous crowd of different people each primarily minding their own business as they each try to their destination. Now, why in the world would anybody at this airport not be civil??? Why in the world would any of them give a damn about anybody else's nationality or patriotic allegiance other than for the sake of trivial curiosity???

Now, I ask: why can we not be equally civil when we come home to Canada?

[jdobbin]

A melting pot, where all would be Canadians first, and then pay homage to their ancestral past.

I don't know that this isn't already what happens by the third generation anyway.

I don't even pay homage to any ancestral past beyond Canada. My wife is first generation and she doesn't pay homage to her birth country at all.

[jdobbin]

That is true for skilled worker and family classes. You can take the test at http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/assess/index.html and see if you would get enough points .

But an entrepreneur who invests $400,000 or more in Canada can get in without a successfull test, afaik.

I don't know that many that have that type of entry fee. And seems to me that if they do, they probably do speak English or French.

[daddyhominum]

I thought all immigrants who wished to be Canadian citizens had to be able to speak English or French.

That is true for skilled worker and family classes.

No, actually it is not. You get a certain number of points for having Canadian language skills under the Skilled worker class, but it's not necessary to speak English or French in any category. And especially irrelevent in terms of children and spouses - there is no requirement they have any language skills whatever.

Actually, it is true. You need an adequate knowledge of an official language to obtain citizenship and become Canadian as jdobbin surmised.

Points are used to assess an applicant for acceptance to immigrate.

[jdobbin]

I think someone else noted that probably isn't long enough. You'd probably have to go back to before Trudeau opened up immigration and expanded on Pearson's determination to break our historical ties with the UK.

And I don't think anyone especially wants to go back to that time. I don't think many people are that much afraid of a sprinkling of foreign cultures among us. What many don't like is being overwhelmed by foreign cultures, by having our cities, now including Toronto, soon to include Vancouver, populated by more foreign born people than by Canadians.

I think much of western Canada has been fairy diverse for well over a 100 years, espeically in the urban areas. Perhaps Toronto is just catching up.

I can think of a time when a large segment of Canada was not anti-immigrant.

[jbg]

Imagine yourself in an international airport and surrounded by a continuous crowd of different people each primarily minding their own business as they each try to their destination. Now, why in the world would anybody at this airport not be civil??? Why in the world would any of them give a damn about anybody else's nationality or patriotic allegiance other than for the sake of trivial curiosity???

Now, I ask: why can we not be equally civil when we come home to Canada?

Because the interactions needed to make a country or even a village or city work are more extensive than those needed to make an airport work. The only value one is committed to in an airport is reaching your destination. Civility helps in not attracting unwanted attention that might prevent you from boarding the plane. A country needs far more than that to work.