Is it time to throw out multiculturalism

[Leafless]

a form of guaranteed assimilation dedicated to Canadian national values.

Exactly what are "Canadian national values"?

Our traditional basic Canadian values are freedom, peace, law and order support for Judeo-Christian intellectual and moral perspectives, strong support for democracy and associated democratic principles with a cultural traditions inspired by both Canadian and American sources including the arts, literature and sports. Included also would be an excellent understanding of Canadian history and our relationship with the Monarchy.

But redefining the country based on three founding national identities coupled with our Charter of Rights and Freedoms has greatly diluted traditional Canadian values.

Canadian identity and values are now dictated by the federal government as to what a Canadian is and means rather than supporting traditional national values.

All of this coupled with globalization including the effects of NAFTA which is a social economic constitution that overrides government law and acts as a charter of rights and freedoms for corporations has hurt Canadians financially and their families contributing to further decline concerning national values.

There appears to be little interest in this board regarding support to reintroduce or try to re-establish traditional values which if not pursued could guarantee an unstable, unorganized society possibly with another culture impressing majority control.

[Charles Anthony]

Our traditional basic Canadian values are freedom, peace, law and order support for Judeo-Christian intellectual and moral perspectives, strong support for democracy and associated democratic principles with a cultural traditions inspired by both Canadian and American sources including the arts, literature and sports. Included also would be an excellent understanding of Canadian history and our relationship with the Monarchy.

That is quite a lot to ask. Why not add a Nobel Peace Prize to everybody's list too?

I think shutting up and paying your taxes is more than enough to earn the right to call yourself Canadian.

Civility helps in not attracting unwanted attention that might prevent you from boarding the plane. A country needs far more than that to work.

Yes. We enjoy telling people how to live their lives outside of the realm of "civility" and we refuse to mind our own business.

Getting past my snarky sarcasm, I understand your point. My point is that many social problems in Canada (and possibly elsewhere) can somehow be boiled down to people trying to tell their neighbors how to live their lives or jealousy at other people's success or some hypocritical do-gooder obsessive disorder or simple racism -- rather than minding one's own business and treating eachother with respect.

[Leafless]

My point is that many social problems in Canada (and possibly elsewhere) can somehow be boiled down to people trying to tell their neighbors how to live their lives or jealousy at other people's success or some hypocritical do-gooder obsessive disorder or simple racism -- rather than minding one's own business and treating eachother with respect.

Please name me a multicultural country that is void of national values and the associated leadership required to maintain traditional and historical values which rather instead that chore being left totally to it's population to successfully socially intertwine it's societies many different values and believes and be successful doing so?

[M.Dancer]

Official Multiculturalism should be eliminated before it's to late.

What do you suggest as an alternative?

I believe the alternative is "now that I got mine the rest of you can bugger off"

Multiculturalism is a fact of life...from the time the first gaelic and the french settlers met and exchanged fiddle tunes in Cape Breton to the thai restaurants run by Sri Lankans in Ottawa......

[M.Dancer]

A return to normal provincial and federal control of minority concerns prior to the 'Charter of rights and Freedoms' along with a form of guaranteed assimilation dedicated to Canadian national values especially directed at any new immigrant but generally encouraged and promoted for all Canadians to harbour.

I'm not sure what that means.

I don't know about the harbour but I would say ihe's been into the port

[M.Dancer]

Still, if you want to obligate immigrants to adopting a set of "Canadian national values", someone should define what that is.

Thing is....Canadian National values are too easily confused with Canadian National Railway share prices.......but, as far as Canadian Values are concerned......I am hard pressed to discover what the differences betwwen the values of my immigrant neighbours and myself. Do we value our parents differently?children? Education? Community? Entrepreneurialism? The democratic process? I grant my hagis is superior to the Rosens or the Tarquirs....but....that's not an issue.

I think when someone starts on about "Canadian National Values", you can usually count on one or two things.

1) They haven't really thought about how those values are defined

2) They mean white.

[M.Dancer]

My point is that many social problems in Canada (and possibly elsewhere) can somehow be boiled down to people trying to tell their neighbors how to live their lives or jealousy at other people's success or some hypocritical do-gooder obsessive disorder or simple racism -- rather than minding one's own business and treating eachother with respect.

Please name me a multicultural country that is void of national values and the associated leadership required to maintain traditional and historical values which rather instead that chore being left totally to it's population to successfully socially intertwine it's societies many different values and believes and be successful doing so?

Is english not your first language? Serioulsy, I'm trying to grope through the syntax here and I'm having difficulty...could I lend you a comma? Maybe it's the looming fallacy in your first sentence......

That being said.....ever heard of Switzerland?

[M.Dancer]

support for Judeo-Christian intellectual and moral perspectives,

This is nebulous and so vast you could drive a double wide through it.

For 15 points and a chance to win a divinity scholarship at Metropolitian Church.....

Define Judeo-Christian and Moral perspectives, starting with the birth of humanism......

[Leafless]

A return to normal provincial and federal control of minority concerns prior to the 'Charter of rights and Freedoms' along with a form of guaranteed assimilation dedicated to Canadian national values especially directed at any new immigrant but generally encouraged and promoted for all Canadians to harbour.

I'm not sure what that means.

I don't know about the harbour but I would say ihe's been into the port

Who did you say was into (iehe's) port?

Assimilation is a BASIC requirement of any successful society.

No society can be everything to everybody without major problems.

These problems are beginning to surface in a substantial way pertaining to Canadian society.

I'll ask you the same question: Name me a successful country that is void of traditional national values that incorporates Canada's type of official multicultural policy or any country that incorporates a multicultural policy that is not experiencing substantial problems.

Your example of multiculturalism is laughable:"Multiculturalism is a fact of life...from the time the first gaelic and the french settlers met and exchanged fiddle tunes in Cape Breton to the thai restaurants run by Sri Lankans in Ottawa......"

This is not representative of the serious problems induced on Canadian society by basically a Liberal government who has NO RESPECT for an already established society and who wished to dictate their own version.

[M.Dancer]

<cue sinister voice> whoooooo...serious problems ...whoooooo....scarey!</cue sinister voice>

[August1991]

You'd probably have to go back to before Trudeau opened up immigration and expanded on Pearson's determination to break our historical ties with the UK.

The immigration act changed in 1976 after a green paper and a long consultation.

The idea of multiculturalism started in Western Canada. When Trudeau promoted the bicultural/bilingual nature of Canada, he ran into opposition from the West where people felt that Canada was more than French and English. Hence, multiculturalism.

Trudeau then presented the idea that Canada is a bilingual and multicultural country. One third of Canadians are of French origin, one third of English origin and one third from somewhere else. Canada cannot be a melting pot because French Canada will not assimilate.

All of this is interesting but I'm not certain how multiculturalsim is connected to the threat of Muslim fanatics setting off a nuclear bomb in a large city. That's like blaming the Bill 101 for the Hell's Angels since many of them speak French.

[M.Dancer]

That's like blaming the Bill 101 for the Hell's Angels since many of them speak French.

Not to mention that many of Les Hells are federalists.......

[Black Dog]

As historian Keith Windschuttle says in his essay The Cultural War on Western Civilization: Until recent decades, most people raised in a western culture were taught that "Its art and its music were glories of its civilization." Literary critics, he says, once extolled the genius of western writers and their contributions to the betterment of the human condition. Nowadays, says Windschuttle, "much of the academic debate about western literary heritage claims that it is politically contaminated: Othello is ethnocentric; Paradise Lost is a feminist tragedy; Jane Eyre is both racist and sexist. Similarly, the teaching of western history has, in many cases, been reduced to a denunciation of the West.

Philosophers from Socrates to Hegel are regarded as "old, dead, white males" with nothing to say to the modern world; never mind that it was those dead, white men who articulated the concepts of freedom and tolerance that the new barbarians distort in perpetuating their anti-western program.

Ah, so western culture is also to be free from criticism or analysis? IMO, if "traditional culture" is so weak as to be unable to sustain itself in the face of different perspectives, then it can't really be as great as its advocates say.

[Leafless]

Ah, so western culture is also to be free from criticism or analysis? IMO, if "traditional culture" is so weak as to be unable to sustain itself in the face of different perspectives, then it can't really be as great as its advocates say.

This is especially true when the federal government works against it's own Canadian culture and defends and promotes others by force.

[Leafless]

My point is that many social problems in Canada (and possibly elsewhere) can somehow be boiled down to people trying to tell their neighbors how to live their lives or jealousy at other people's success or some hypocritical do-gooder obsessive disorder or simple racism -- rather than minding one's own business and treating eachother with respect.

Please name me a multicultural country that is void of national values and the associated leadership required to maintain traditional and historical values which rather instead that chore being left totally to it's population to successfully socially intertwine it's societies many different values and believes and be successful doing so?

Is english not your first language? Serioulsy, I'm trying to grope through the syntax here and I'm having difficulty...could I lend you a comma? Maybe it's the looming fallacy in your first sentence......

That being said.....ever heard of Switzerland?

It's obvious English can't be YOUR first language as you can't even spell the word.

English is my only language.

I try to condense as efficiently as possible and use run on sentences.

It's hard to imagine a seasoned member complaining about this. Are you MALE?

If you don't understand my post don't reply. Another personal criticism in order to belittle me and I'll report you to the moderator.

BTW--Switzerland has cultural problems.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041...2727r_page2.htm

[crazymf]

Exactly what are "Canadian national values"?

One major Canadian value is the ability to talk a subject to death and then have the ability to truly believe that by ignoring it, it will go away. ie The federal government.

[Black Dog]

Please name me a multicultural country that is void of national values and the associated leadership required to maintain traditional and historical values which rather instead that chore being left totally to it's population to successfully socially intertwine it's societies many different values and believes and be successful doing so?

So what your saying is (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that maintaining culture is a task that cannot be left to members of that culture and must be supported by the government. Yes? Not aparticularily conservative viewpoint, I must say.

[daddyhominum]

That is true for skilled worker and family classes. You can take the test at http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/assess/index.html and see if you would get enough points .

But an entrepreneur who invests $400,000 or more in Canada can get in without a successfull test, afaik.

I don't know that many that have that type of entry fee. And seems to me that if they do, they probably do speak English or French.

Considering the populations of Eastern Asia, I suspect that there is an unending supply of such investors because 0.5% of a billion people might be millionaires leaves yo with some 50 million potewntial investors.

It was amusing to us poor people when the change for Hong Kong became imminent and Hong Kong businessmen bought palatial properties in West Vancouver for multiple millions and the bulldozed them and built new homes. The outrage of Canada's elite was a joy to behold!

[M.Dancer]

If you don't understand my post don't reply. Another personal criticism in order to belittle me and I'll report you to the moderator.

Are you MALE?

Coffee, Nose, Spurt......

Okay..you found an article after hour of googling.....from the Unification Church Times......

Except that you didn't read it......

"Where people live together and see [foreign] people every day, there is less fear."

"As far as the class being multicultural, there is no problem. It is an enrichment to be educated in this environment. But as a teacher, I need a great variety of professional skills, great tolerance and more engagement [than if they were all Swiss]. These are great kids; they come to school early, eager to learn," she said.

"Society asked these workers to come. We have 30 years' experience in integrating them. I think we've managed very well," said Mrs. Strauli, who specializes in working with Kurdish and Turkish students.

"When the parents are educated, the children get it. The immigrant children from middle-class families don't have any problem.

"The problem we face is not language or culture, but social structure, the poor, uneducated. The parents, although they want to very much, cannot help their children very much."

Asked about the anti-immigration campaign and racism, he said: "There are dumb people everywhere, and Switzerland is no exception."

I wouldn't dream of belittling you, not when you are doing such a good job all on your own.....

[daddyhominum]

Multiculturalism is a fact of life...from the time the first gaelic and the french settlers met and exchanged fiddle tunes in Cape Breton to the thai restaurants run by Sri Lankans in Ottawa......

I think you are right and I think that it is a global fact, not just Canadian.

For the sake of some analysis, assume that separate cultures, typified by language, developed because of geographical separation only. That is certainly close to the truth if not the complete truth. Simple analysis reveals that without geographic separation separate cultures would never have developed. If mankind had always had at least the communication technology of today's world, there would never have been an opportunity for the 'other culture' to develop. Accepting the fact of technology, therefore, implies recognition that independent cultures are as doomed as the reign of the Pharaohs. Accomodating communication technology means accommodating other's cultures. Multiculturalism is recognition of global fact rather then a political policy.

Remember Marshall McCluhan's dictum that, "The medium is the message". Instant communication is the medium: intertwined cultures is the message.

If one pushes the analysis to relate current events to the facts, a new cause for 'fundamentalism' is recognizable. Whether religious, language, racial, military, artistic whatever was culture is under stress all over the world resulting in diehard conflicts. Ironically, bin Laden defends his view of traditional values employing TV, cellular phones, and the Internet. Nothing his enemies do will undermine his efforts as seriously as the technology he himself spreads among his chosen people. Similarly, we extend our culture through military means led by the USA and supported by the Western Democracies. In doing so, we make available all the technology that enables everyone instant communication with everyone and, thus, weakens our own language and culture.

So what is a growing boy to do?

Hasten the inevitable. Free cell phones to all the citizens of the world. Broad access to the Internet even in the most remote communities.

BTW, I love the irony created when some argue to defend "Canadian" culture in the same Forums that others are calling for Indian Nations to assimilate!

[Leafless]

<cue sinister voice> whoooooo...serious problems ...whoooooo....scarey!</cue sinister voice>

You are one weirdo sick puppy!

[Argus]

A melting pot, where all would be Canadians first, and then pay homage to their ancestral past.

I don't know that this isn't already what happens by the third generation anyway.

A study in Sweden found that over 90% of third generation Turkish "Swedes" went "Home" to Turkey to find a proper wife, so they could raise their children as proper Turks.

[Argus]

All of this is interesting but I'm not certain how multiculturalsim is connected to the threat of Muslim fanatics setting off a nuclear bomb in a large city. That's like blaming the Bill 101 for the Hell's Angels since many of them speak French.

I think we can all agree that not all Muslims are crazy wacko terrorists. We can even agree that most Muslims don't sympathise with crazy, wacko terrorists.

But the more Muslims you bring into Canada, the greater the odds become. If only 1% of Muslims believes terrorism against the evil infidels is justified, that's still 10,000 Muslims living in Canada who believe terrorism is justified. If you have that many people living here who believe terrorism is justified (and frankly, I think the percentage is much higher) then the odds of some of them eventually setting off bombs and such is fairly high.

And the odds don't get any better when there are two million Muslims in Canada. Or three. Or four.

Multicuralism is based, in large measure, on cultural relativism. We shouldn't encourage others to adapt to our ways, to become "canadian" because that would be arrogant and ethnocentric of us. Their culture is every bit as good as ours (even if they are massively racist, sexist, mysogynistic, bigoted and ignorant) so they should be encouraged to glory in it and stay as they are. It also says we shouldn't care anything about the cultures or cultural backgrounds of people coming to Canada because, as you know, all cultures have equal value, and we shouldn't judge any peoples as less than others.

Which is all BS, of course. We should be taking in far fewer immigrants, and the ones we do take in should be primarily from cultures which have value systems as similar to ours as possible so they adapt more easily to Canada, and yes, that means European countries first, and Muslims dead last.

[Argus]

That is true for skilled worker and family classes. You can take the test at http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/assess/index.html and see if you would get enough points .

But an entrepreneur who invests $400,000 or more in Canada can get in without a successfull test, afaik.

I don't know that many that have that type of entry fee. And seems to me that if they do, they probably do speak English or French.

I think that entry fee is ridiculously low. You can't buy a decent house in Toronto for that much. It ought to be at least ten times higher.

[Argus]

I think someone else noted that probably isn't long enough. You'd probably have to go back to before Trudeau opened up immigration and expanded on Pearson's determination to break our historical ties with the UK.

And I don't think anyone especially wants to go back to that time. I don't think many people are that much afraid of a sprinkling of foreign cultures among us. What many don't like is being overwhelmed by foreign cultures, by having our cities, now including Toronto, soon to include Vancouver, populated by more foreign born people than by Canadians.

I think much of western Canada has been fairy diverse for well over a 100 years, espeically in the urban areas. Perhaps Toronto is just catching up.

I can think of a time when a large segment of Canada was not anti-immigrant.

How old are you?

There is a difference between a Canada which has a lot of British and French immgirants, and a Canada which has a lot of Muslim immigrants.