Nationalist Posted February 10 Report Posted February 10 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: How exactly I'm supposed to automatically assume 'skin colour' is what you meant by denomination is beyond me. In any case, explain to me why identifying with similar skin colour is rational OR instinctual. People evolved in tribes and rarely warred with people from different climates. What constitutes an outsider is in question and - yes - it could be skin colour, but also religion, nationality and uncountable other things. So I will keep my point - there's no true pride in being any race, sexual identity, nationhood or somesuch. You were born into it, AFAIC. Ever try to hand a young child to a different color skin person? It scares them. Race/denomination is an instinct. Fear of "the other". Its a survival instinct which each and every one of us has. Thus, if we are able to be absolutely honest with ourselves, every human being feels some measure of racism. The trick is to deal with this instinct in a civil manner...which is not always possible. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Michael Hardner Posted February 10 Report Posted February 10 17 minutes ago, Nationalist said: 1. Ever try to hand a young child to a different color skin person? 2. It scares them. 3. Race/denomination is an instinct. Fear of "the other". Its a survival instinct which each and every one of us has. 4. Thus, if we are able to be absolutely honest with ourselves, every human being feels some measure of racism. 5. The trick is to deal with this instinct in a civil manner...which is not always possible. 1. Yes, I have been doing this a lot recently. 2. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In any case, even if you were right then that observation wouldn't translate to any conclusions about 'pride'. I will absolutely concur with your point that people are naturally AFRAID of different skin colours in certain contexts, specifically if they have no experience with them and probably if they're past the formative age. Case in point, the story of my great aunt who ran out of an elevator in Montreal in the 1950s when a black man got in. Not a woke person. I, on the other hand, had a black family friend when I was a toddler - shortly after that era and had an affinity for black folks thereafter. And there were basically no black folks in Toronto (my neighbourhood) at that time. 3. Absolutely I concur. 4. I concur. 5. I concur here also. Back to the question of 'Pride'... it's a pretty foggy notion. I can be 'proud' of my city but I had nothing to do with building it. I can be 'proud' of my skin colour but it's not an achievement either. We need to separate things we can really proud about - maybe a new word - such as achievement of ourselves or our family. 1 Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
TreeBeard Posted February 10 Report Posted February 10 2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: We need to separate things we can really proud about It’s very odd that the folks who encourage “white pride” cuz the Greeks did stuff 3,000 years ago and their skin was a similar shade can’t explain how they are connected to that happening whatsoever. And if there’s no connection, how could they ever feel some sort of pride that it occurred? Quote
CdnFox Posted February 10 Report Posted February 10 3 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: It’s very odd that the folks who encourage “white pride” cuz the Greeks did stuff 3,000 years ago and their skin was a similar shade can’t explain how they are connected to that happening whatsoever. Just like people who are black who were born in America 200 years after slavery ended can't explain why they deserve reparations today. And you may not have heard this but there were actually some things that were done by European people more recently than 3,000 years ago 1 Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
Nationalist Posted February 10 Report Posted February 10 3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. Yes, I have been doing this a lot recently. 2. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In any case, even if you were right then that observation wouldn't translate to any conclusions about 'pride'. I will absolutely concur with your point that people are naturally AFRAID of different skin colours in certain contexts, specifically if they have no experience with them and probably if they're past the formative age. Case in point, the story of my great aunt who ran out of an elevator in Montreal in the 1950s when a black man got in. Not a woke person. I, on the other hand, had a black family friend when I was a toddler - shortly after that era and had an affinity for black folks thereafter. And there were basically no black folks in Toronto (my neighbourhood) at that time. 3. Absolutely I concur. 4. I concur. 5. I concur here also. Back to the question of 'Pride'... it's a pretty foggy notion. I can be 'proud' of my city but I had nothing to do with building it. I can be 'proud' of my skin colour but it's not an achievement either. We need to separate things we can really proud about - maybe a new word - such as achievement of ourselves or our family. You dont feel any pride in the Caucasian denomination having driven the industrial and technical revolutions? No desire to see that be perpetuated? Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Michael Hardner Posted February 10 Report Posted February 10 41 minutes ago, Nationalist said: You dont feel any pride in the Caucasian denomination having driven the industrial and technical revolutions? No desire to see that be perpetuated? Read GUNS GERMS AND STEEL by Jared diamond. It's an entertaining read and it will explain one good theory as to why Europe was dominant for a good while. I don't feel pride in German Intellectualism, French culinary excellence, British governance and the Victorian era.. 1 Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
CdnFox Posted February 10 Report Posted February 10 3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Read GUNS GERMS AND STEEL by Jared diamond. It's an entertaining read and it will explain one good theory as to why Europe was dominant for a good while. I don't feel pride in German Intellectualism, French culinary excellence, British governance and the Victorian era.. of course you don't. You probably refer to it as:Ial and it's on your list of things you'd like to see destroyed to pave way for the glorious new socialist utopia 🤣🤣🤣 Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
Michael Hardner Posted February 10 Report Posted February 10 8 minutes ago, CdnFox said: of course you don't. You probably refer to it as:Ial and it's on your list of things you'd like to see destroyed to pave way for the glorious new socialist utopia 🤣🤣🤣 🤔 You're weird. 1 Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
CdnFox Posted February 10 Report Posted February 10 2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: 🤔 You're weird. That's not you saying no Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
Michael Hardner Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 40 minutes ago, CdnFox said: That's not you saying no Well here's my answer: I think her system of government is superior. I've always loved French and Italian cuisine, as served in the countries themselves. I will never read enough German intellectual material, until the day I die. But why I would be proud of a German who died hundreds of years ago is beyond me. And the idea that people would think I obviously should be is very strange to me to the point where I doubt they're sincere. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Nationalist Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: Read GUNS GERMS AND STEEL by Jared diamond. It's an entertaining read and it will explain one good theory as to why Europe was dominant for a good while. I don't feel pride in German Intellectualism, French culinary excellence, British governance and the Victorian era.. That's sad. But it explains some things. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Michael Hardner Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 6 minutes ago, Nationalist said: That's sad. Are you actually proud of nationalities to which you don't belong? That just strikes me as weird. Where do you cut off the line? At a certain point people get kind of.... Mixed. Like Malta? Corsica? Anyway... Far be it for me to tell you who you're proud of. 1 Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
CdnFox Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 38 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Well here's my answer: I think her system of government is superior. I've always loved French and Italian cuisine, as served in the countries themselves. I will never read enough German intellectual material, until the day I die. But why I would be proud of a German who died hundreds of years ago is beyond me. And the idea that people would think I obviously should be is very strange to me to the point where I doubt they're sincere. As I said, the left takes no pride in our history or the accomplishments of any of our forefathers. They would rather see that history erased. They would refer to anybody who was proud of their European past as being Colonial and anybody who is proud of their canadian history is being racist. Everything you are and everything you have is the culmination of the people that came before you plus whatever you put on top. Canada was founded and built by European nations including France germany and Britain and the number of other countries. Looking at their accomplishments and their roles in what would eventually become Canada combined with our own contributions is something that normal people would take some pride in. The fact that you take no pride in it indicates either that you're so egotistical that you think that nothing anybody did in the past contributed to who you are today or you think Canada is not something to be proud of. Given many of your comments I suspect the latter. This really wasn't complicated. Most people understand that they Built what they have today on the top of the efforts of people that came before them but apparently you consider those people to be worthless and not worthy of your pride. Says everything anyone needs to know about you as far as I'm concerned 2 Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
Nationalist Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 22 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Are you actually proud of nationalities to which you don't belong? That just strikes me as weird. Where do you cut off the line? At a certain point people get kind of.... Mixed. Like Malta? Corsica? Anyway... Far be it for me to tell you who you're proud of. I am a Caucasian and proud of it. 2 Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
CdnFox Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 35 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Are you actually proud of nationalities to which you don't belong? That just strikes me as weird. I'm proud of the efforts of every person and culture a contributed and eventually became part of what Canada is today. And that goes back thousands of years. One way or another a whole bunch of people did a whole bunch of them amazing things and eventually built up cultures and technology that allowed them to come here and create this country. Then even more people moved here and helps build this country. Obviously having pride in your country is something you feel is weird. No shock 1 Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
Michael Hardner Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 44 minutes ago, CdnFox said: 1. Looking at their accomplishments and their roles in what would eventually become Canada combined with our own contributions is something that normal people would take some pride in. 2. The fact that you take no pride in it indicates either that you're so egotistical that you think that nothing anybody did in the past contributed to who you are today or you think Canada is not something to be proud of. So weird. 1. So I guess I should also be proud of Chinese people since they built th the railroad? What is it? I'm supposed to feel proud of everybody who contributed to Canada? 2. So because I'm not proud of other people... I'm egotistical? That's a stretch. People should be proud of their achievements, but grateful for those who made it happen. There. .. I think this is your habit of furiously rubbing sticks together trying to get smoke. I can't even say that I disagree because the point you're making is such a stretch. Let's find something else to disagree on. 1 Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
I am Groot Posted February 11 Author Report Posted February 11 (edited) 23 hours ago, TreeBeard said: Why should you feel pride for things done by fellow white-skinned people 3,000 years ago in a culture you have no attachment to? You’re not Greek, are you? Why are we supposed to feel shame and accept being punished for the things whites did centuries ago? Why is there a black history month? Are blacks supposed to be proud of something some other blacks have done somewhere? Edited February 11 by I am Groot Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
Michael Hardner Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 1 minute ago, I am Groot said: Why are we supposed to feel shame and accept being punished for the things whites did centuries ago? You shouldn't. 1 Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
I am Groot Posted February 11 Author Report Posted February 11 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: You shouldn't. Then why does the government insist we do? Why do I keep seeing cites for adverts from various public sector outfits, particularly universities, that basically say 'no whites need apply'? Why does the government allocate grants to universities based on the race of graduate students and professors conducting studies? The Canada Research Chairs Program (CRCP) mandates strict Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion (EDI) policies, requiring institutions with five or more chairs to implement action plans that address systemic barriers and meet specific, population-based targets for four designated groups (FDGs): women, Indigenous Peoples, persons with disabilities, and visible minorities. Key elements of the CRCP EDI policies include: Equity Targets (2021-2029): Institutions must meet specific percentage targets for representation within their chair allocations for each of the four designated groups (FDGs). Action Plans & Accountability: Institutions must submit and publicly report on EDI action plans, which include employment systems reviews and environmental scans to identify and remove barriers. Recruitment Requirements: Mandatory, transparent, and open recruitment processes are required, including the use of unbiased language,, and explicit encouragement for applications from underrepresented groups. Edited February 11 by I am Groot Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
TreeBeard Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 (edited) 2 hours ago, I am Groot said: Why are we supposed to feel shame and accept being punished for the things whites did centuries ago? Why are you doing that to yourself? Don’t. 2 hours ago, I am Groot said: Why is there a black history month? Are blacks supposed to be proud of something some other blacks have done somewhere? To celebrate black history, obviously. Every month over many centuries has been white history month. I’m pretty sure it’s about the suppression of their humanity, the fact they were enslaved, etc, etc. It’s really weird that you would take such offence at this that you would make up a victimhood to try and “fight back” Edited February 11 by TreeBeard Quote
User Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 1 hour ago, TreeBeard said: To celebrate black history, obviously. I’m pretty sure it’s about the suppression of their humanity, the fact they were enslaved, etc, etc. It’s really weird that you would take such offence at this that you would make up a victimhood to try and “fight back” Would you take offense to a month specifically dedicated to celebrating white history? Quote
CdnFox Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: So weird. As usual when you have no intelligent argument you try to dehumanize your opponent. Quote 1. So I guess I should also be proud of Chinese people since they built th the railroad? What is it? I'm supposed to feel proud of everybody who contributed to Canada? well those were Canadians at the time for the most part and sure, why not feel proud about that? The creation of the railroads was a very impressive thing. You think that doesn't deserve pride? Quote 2. So because I'm not proud of other people... I'm egotistical? No i'm pretty sure you were egotistical long before htat 4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: I think this is your habit of furiously rubbing sticks together trying to get smoke. Ahhh yes.... "why are we even talking about this". Your other favourite go to. What you seem to be saying is people shouldn't be proud of their heritage. I assure you you are in the minority when you claim that that is somehow "weird" Quote "That which doesn't kill me... Had better start running."
Michael Hardner Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 8 hours ago, I am Groot said: Then why does the government insist we do? You made a big leap there... I'm not interested in hysteria on this question. I just want down to earth discussion... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 4 hours ago, CdnFox said: well those were Canadians at the time for the most part and sure, why not feel proud about that? The creation of the railroads was a very impressive thing. You think that doesn't deserve pride? Well I DO think it's weird, but I want to assert that I think there's something honest in your stance in all this. Even though you want to make it about deficiencies in my part, I don't feel the same about you here. You seem to have a consistent and axiomatic "ethic" about this and I admire that. But still weird to me, In that you're describing a foreign feeling. That doesn't mean I think your take is bad, or worse than mine, just that I can't relate. Maybe You could understand me better if I said I admire these things we're talking about, that I have a deep affection for the work that my ancestors and others put in to building... I don't know.... Canada, Western civilization.... I stood at the amphitheater at Nimes, I think, when I was a young man.. And standing there I could feel the force of the Roman will to build, and create. I could really feel in my heart that they intended to be there forever. It was awe-inspiring. I have felt that way every time I visited a Roman site ... Such as Pompeii or the aqueduct. And I suppose for Canadian cities and American cities I visited. But pride? That's a very personal feeling I think. I can only really feel pride over my achievements and the ones close to me. And I'm a perfectionist so I don't even feel that about myself very often despite how hard I've worked to achieve what I have in my life. I would say not egotistical, but maybe the opposite.... I don't really feel like I've ever done enough. But I commend you for having a principled take on this. Interesting talk. Thanks. You made me think a lot about what pride means. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Barquentine Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 18 hours ago, Nationalist said: Race/denomination is an instinct. Fear of "the other". Its a survival instinct which each and every one of us has. Thus, if we are able to be absolutely honest with ourselves, every human being feels some measure of racism. 18 hours ago, Nationalist said: The trick is to deal with this instinct in a civil manner...which is not always possible. I'd say maybe 10-20% is biologically based. Every living thing has an imperative to pass along its genes and continue its particular species. But as humans 'fear of the other' is more a taught reaction, passed down by generation, exacerbated by politics and media. "The trick is to deal with this instinct in a civil manner...which is not always possible. " BINGO! Quote
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