Cons to Debate Things Normal Canadians like

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

1. Change was necessary. No one said that they had DEI. 

2. It's kind of obvious that there is a cabal if you actually look around.

• Why did the Dems and their MSM accomplices pretend that M Brown was the 'Gentle Giant' for 3 months after the videos of him violently robbing that store came out? None of that rioting needed to happen. 
• why did they pretend that G Floyd was the new 'Gentle Giant' when they knew about his violent past, and K Ellison had the bodycam footage under his thumb? None of that rioting needed to happen
• What divides the country more than manufactured race riots? "You can always get one half of the poor people to kill the other half". 
• there are people who benefit from DEI, and they're the angriest, loudest, emptiest vessels in the room. They keep the hate going non-stop
• why did our gov't in Canada pretend that there was a genocide against 215 kids in Kamloops when they knew that never happened?
• why did our gov't insinuate that the the MMIW were all killed by white men, while that's the least likely scenario? 
• why does our gov't constantly pretend that white men commit most of the terrorist attacks? It's absurd. You can only name 2 off the top of your head, and there were several islamic terrorist attacks here: they're only 1% of our population...
• why does our gov't like to pretend that conservatives commit the most acts of political violence? They don't even commit 1% of political violence. BLM easily did 10,000x the destruction of Jan 6thers. J6 was a few hours, with a few hundred people, and all they did was smash a few windows and bust 1 or 2 doors. BLM rioted for hours and hours, several days a week, in multiple cities, for years. Plus there's Antifa. And now there are the ICE riots. Leftists are rioting an awful lot, destructively, and this time it's to protect pedophiles. 
• Why did the CBC try so hard to characterize the Freedom Convoy as destructive and violent, but never said that they were "in support of youths who are being forced to vaccinate"? They constantly put a positive spin on BLM riots, described the BLM protests and riots, describing them as "protesting anti-black violence"? After the Freedom Convoy left, months after they started, there wasn't a broken window or a McDonald's box laying on the ground. Leftists kill people and burn down buildings at their riots, that's an undeniable fact.

3. When was the last time that you felt like the Dems/Libs were really on the right side of history? 

4. The Libs have been re-elected 3 times now. What was their last real win? When did they score a W for Canada?

When did it even seem like they were really trying to score a W for Canada? 

5. Was forcing kids to vaccinate really ever supposed to be good for us? Really?

1. That's the point I'm confused on.  To me, "Affirmative Action" (which is what it was called in my day) is virtually the same thing.  Have a look at the Link I posted.  You seem to be saying that it was needed then, and so maybe we're more on the same page than I thought.

2. Yes, you posted those incidents above.  I acknowledge your point about the differences in the current context Versus, say, 1961.  I also acknowledge that there are political machinations that advance campaigns based on the incidents cited.  I'm not familiar with all of the incidents, so I don't have the bandwidth to research and respond to each point.

3. I've never been a fan of the Democrats in the way you describe: being "right".  Parties are coalitions that move forward with a collective set of agendas.  In the rare case where they have to make a hard moral choice, they tend to break a lot of eggs, let's say.  Such as LBJ's Democrats in 1965.

4. I made this point last night, speaking to a friend.  Apply it to any of the Canadian governments... What are the big initiatives of the last generation? I would say three trade deals: FTA, NAFTA, China.  

5. Yes.  And unlike trade deals, Canadians clearly support it..

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/article/most-canadians-still-confident-in-vaccines-but-hesitancy-has-increased-poll-says/

[Barquentine]

21 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Then every culture is not good

Touche!

[Barquentine]

20 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I'm being kind of flippant, but surely you can see there's a bit of chauvinism in every single culture right?

Yes. At the basest level, survival of my species, my family, my tribe is inherent in humans. But we also have intelligence and free will, knowledge of good and evil, etc... so we can live and let live. 

[I am Groot]

On 1/16/2026 at 9:33 AM, ExFlyer said:

Well, it was the Liberals that also allowed statues to be removed, bridges, buildings, towns, villages and highways to be renamed.

It is  not a political party affliction , it is a societal politically correct thing

Yes. But that political correctness is coming from the Left, and so it afflicted the left-wing political parties much more than the right-wing ones. 

And it STILL comes from America. It comes from their elite universities, filters down into their society, into their entertainment mediums, into their arts groups, and then gets broadcast to the world through the exports of the powerful American culture machine. 

The world would be a better place today if places like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Berkeley had been torn down fifty years ago. Their prestige lent these absurdist ideas weight they should not have had

[ExFlyer]

Just now, I am Groot said:

Yes. But that political correctness is coming from the Left, and so it afflicted the left-wing political parties much more than the right-wing ones. 

And it STILL comes from America. It comes from their elite universities, filters down into their society, into their entertainment mediums, into their arts groups, and then gets broadcast to the world through the exports of the powerful American culture machine. 

The world would be a better place today if places like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Berkeley had been torn down fifty years ago. Their prestige lent these absurdist ideas weight they should not have had

"While Stephen Harper was Prime Minister (2006-2015), there weren't widespread, federally driven statue removals, but discussions about historical figures like Sir John A. Macdonald (Canada's first PM) were happening, with some debates and eventual removals occurring".

" Several buildings and public infrastructure sites were renamed  during Stephen Harper's tenure as Prime Minister of Canada (2006–2015). These actions were often part of a broader, politically driven focus on Canadian history and the "restoration" of historical memory,"

[I am Groot]

On 1/16/2026 at 5:56 PM, Moonbox said:

No, but unless you think the Chinese model where mono-ethnic, mono-cultured and religiously suppressed allegiance to the Party is the best model, you probably have to acknowledge that a certain level of diversity is pretty good. 

For decades, the Nordic countries with their 'mono-ethnic' culture were synonymous with safe, secure, prosperous, well-run societies that were the most egalitarian and forward-thinking on Earth. Excellent economies combined with excellent social welfare programs and enormous freedoms.

Then they decided, "Hey, a little diversity is a good thing!"

Now there are daily hand grenade battles in Sweden, of all places, which is now the rape capital of the world. There's violence and shootings between drug gangs out in the streets, and riots and arsons by the newcomers who, for the most part, don't work and live on welfare.

Yay diversity?

On 1/16/2026 at 7:08 PM, Michael Hardner said:

I would agree with him more if he had said Muslim Canadians are Canadians like the rest of us. 

If your first loyalty is to another nation, and another people, how can you be Canadians like the rest of us?

Edited January 18 by I am Groot

[Michael Hardner]

12 minutes ago, Barquentine said:

Yes. At the basest level, survival of my species, my family, my tribe is inherent in humans. But we also have intelligence and free will, knowledge of good and evil, etc... so we can live and let live. 

I agree, and I think the genius of the Christian philosophy... extended to the constitutional framework of the United States also... Is that it recognizes And defines a strong border between the self and the other: 

Do unto others as they would do unto you 

I have the right to pursue happiness, and the state will not impose restrictions on my metaphysical beliefs and religious practices. 

...

Maintaining these philosophies on a personal and National basis requires constant reflection, and internal dialogue. 

When that breaks down... Well look what happens 😔

[I am Groot]

On 1/17/2026 at 9:15 AM, Barquentine said:

What is a culture? Are you talking about nationalities, ethnicities, or groups that hold common beliefs?

MAGA is a 'culture' that is not good. White supremacy is a culture that is not good. Any culture that thinks it's culture is the only good one is not good.

So then Islam is not good. Go ahead. Say it. You had no difficulty saying white supremacy and MAGA were no good (which I largely agree with). 

Now tell me Islam is no good.

[I am Groot]

23 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

"In Canada,

it is generally not allowed for job applications to ask for personal information regarding race, gender, or other protected characteristics. 

Such questions are prohibited because they can directly or indirectly lead to discrimination in the hiring process, violating human rights laws like the Canadian Human Rights Act and provincial human rights code"

"Prohibited Topics

Employers should not ask about the following in job applications or interviews: 

• Race, Colour, Ancestry, or Ethnic Origin: Questions about your ethnic background, where you are from, or the origin of your name.
• Sex, Gender Identity, or Gender Expression: Questions asking if you are male/female, your gender identity, or your pronouns.
• Marital or Family Status: Whether you are married, divorced, or have children (including questions about future family plans).
• Age: Asking for your age or date of birth.
• Religion/Creed: What religion you practice or if you observe certain holidays."

How nice. But you left out the part that says they have to abide by the Employment equity act,

The federal government must abide by the Employment Equity Act (EEA) for its own public service, as well as for other federally regulated employers, requiring them to eliminate barriers and ensure representation for women, Indigenous peoples, people with disabilities, and racialized groups in the workplace, with specific obligations for public administration set out in the Act itself. 

Who Must Comply?

• Federal Public Administration: The Treasury Board and Public Service Commission are responsible for implementing the Act for federal employees.
• Federally Regulated Employers: Private-sector companies with 100 or more employees in federally regulated industries (like banking, telecommunications, transport) must also follow the EEA. 

Key Obligations Under the Act:

• Identify & Correct Disadvantage: Employers must find and fix barriers that disadvantage the four designated groups.
• Proportional Representation: Aim to have these groups represented in their workforce in numbers similar to their representation in the Canadian labour market.
• Workplace Equity Plans: Develop and implement plans to achieve these goals. 

21 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Then every culture is not good 🤔

A culture has extremely complex and subjective attributes.  Binary morality only works towards making people smug.

What about a culture that not only says it is the only acceptable one but that all other cultures must submit to it and be absorbed by it? Through force, if necessary. 

[ExFlyer]

3 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

How nice. But you left out the part that says they have to abide by the Employment equity act,

The federal government must abide by the Employment Equity Act (EEA) for its own public service, as well as for other federally regulated employers, requiring them to eliminate barriers and ensure representation for women, Indigenous peoples, people with disabilities, and racialized groups in the workplace, with specific obligations for public administration set out in the Act itself. 

Who Must Comply?

• Federal Public Administration: The Treasury Board and Public Service Commission are responsible for implementing the Act for federal employees.
• Federally Regulated Employers: Private-sector companies with 100 or more employees in federally regulated industries (like banking, telecommunications, transport) must also follow the EEA. 

Key Obligations Under the Act:

• Identify & Correct Disadvantage: Employers must find and fix barriers that disadvantage the four designated groups.
• Proportional Representation: Aim to have these groups represented in their workforce in numbers similar to their representation in the Canadian labour market.
• Workplace Equity Plans: Develop and implement plans to achieve these goals. 

What about a culture that not only says it is the only acceptable one but that all other cultures must submit to it and be absorbed by it? Through force, if necessary. 

OK

[Barquentine]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I agree, and I think the genius of the Christian philosophy... extended to the constitutional framework of the United States also... Is that it recognizes And defines a strong border between the self and the other:

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself,"

Isn't the Christian message trying to break down the border between the self and the other?

[I am Groot]

On 1/16/2026 at 12:07 PM, Army Guy said:

Is that because we are ashamed of our past, or is it that some Canadians feel uncomfortable with those statues, or names...and so we try to erase it...hoping we will forget, that our nation has some warts attached to it....Have we really grown that soft....You should not be trying to change history, but rather learning from it...can't do that if it is erased...

If the people who worked and continue to work so hard to shame us with our history had any integrity or honesty, they'd have a look around the world that existed during those times and be forced to admit that, for their times, our ancestors were a lot better than almost everyone else's ancestors. What warts we have are tiny compared to those of other countries.

As for changing history.

The past may be many things, but it is clearly irrevocable. Its sins can no more be purged than its achievements can be expunged. Those who suffered in centuries past are as much beyond our help as those who sinned are beyond our retribution".  - Thomas Sowell

[I am Groot]

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. That's interesting. Effectively, DEI WAS started with good intentions then....

 

Ok.

Hey, Michael, can you tell me what the road to hell is paved with?

On 1/16/2026 at 11:10 AM, Michael Hardner said:

3. Indeed I DID forget about education, mea culpa.  And I agree there that people who are less qualified in terms of marks might get in ... however there is also a thing called legacy admissions... would you be ok with outlawing all of it and making a double-blind admission test ?  I don't mean to say that DEI is 'fair' but the idea that it puts unqualified people into jobs is not 100% true and often a situation where people aren't implementing it properly.

• Small Boost, Not a "Magic Key": Being a legacy can improve your chances, but you still need to be a qualified candidate.
• Highly Selective vs. Public Schools: Legacy status matters most at private, highly selective universities (e.g., Ivy League) that want to maintain donor relationships. Public universities, especially in Canada, rarely consider legacy status and tend to focus almost entirely on grades.

[I am Groot]

36 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

"While Stephen Harper was Prime Minister (2006-2015), there weren't widespread, federally driven statue removals, but discussions about historical figures like Sir John A. Macdonald (Canada's first PM) were happening, with some debates and eventual removals occurring".

" Several buildings and public infrastructure sites were renamed  during Stephen Harper's tenure as Prime Minister of Canada (2006–2015). These actions were often part of a broader, politically driven focus on Canadian history and the "restoration" of historical memory,"

How does this negate anything I said? Harper wasn't the dictator of the nation who could give orders to everyone not do stupid crap. There were and still are a lot of useless twats in office across this country. Hell, the statue of Sir John A was torn down off its pedestal at Queens Park while Doug Ford hid under his desk. Then it was boarded up and left boarded up for years because Ford pissed himself every time he thought of the OPP pushing away native or pro-native protesters trying to tear it down again, or of those people succeeding and demonstrating yet again that he had no balls.

[ExFlyer]

55 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

How does this negate anything I said? Harper wasn't the dictator of the nation who could give orders to everyone not do stupid crap. There were and still are a lot of useless twats in office across this country. Hell, the statue of Sir John A was torn down off its pedestal at Queens Park while Doug Ford hid under his desk. Then it was boarded up and left boarded up for years because Ford pissed himself every time he thought of the OPP pushing away native or pro-native protesters trying to tear it down again, or of those people succeeding and demonstrating yet again that he had no balls.

Just saying it was not just Liberals...Harper did it otoo

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Barquentine said:

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself,"

Isn't the Christian message trying to break down the border between the self and the other?

I think it's about benchmarking the rule of engagement to one that locks in a path towards coexistence.

[eyeball]

12 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

No one said that they had DEI. 

It was called affirmative action back in the day.

[herbie]

The existence of the extreme right depends on invisible bogeymen, misrepresentation, scapegoating and denial.

Wahhh the extremist leftwing faculty wouldn't hire Andrew Tate as Professor of Women's Studies because he's white....

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

It was called affirmative action back in the day.

Yes, back to the Wikipedia post I submitted.... Seems to have started way back in 1961 during JFK's brief administration. 

But you can see WestCan seems to acknowledge there was a better reason for DEI/ affirmative action then. 

Understandable say because we were pre-civil rights in 1961. 

So if I read him correctly, it morphed into something more familiar today as identity politics and their membership in The culture Army.  Certain conservatives like Graham and WestCan see such Culture warriors as the cause of many of our current ills. So be it.

There's still a debate to be had there, however the lesson I take from this is a little discussion with someone who seems to have very different views can lead you to the realization that their views are not so different from yours.

[ExFlyer]

23 hours ago, I am Groot said:

So then Islam is not good. Go ahead. Say it. You had no difficulty saying white supremacy and MAGA were no good (which I largely agree with). 

Now tell me Islam is no good.

Islam is a religion??? As opposed to a culture?

"A Muslim is a follower of Islam, which is a monotheistic religion,"

[I am Groot]

3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Islam is a religion??? As opposed to a culture?

"A Muslim is a follower of Islam, which is a monotheistic religion,"

Islam is a complete societal guide, from religion to law to social behaviour to government.  Or to quote Gad Saad, "Islam is 10% spiritual, 90% political". 

Do you think it's a mere coincidence that being openly gay is illegal in all Muslim countries across the globe? That no Muslim country, out of 50, treats men and women equally under the law? Tell me about the lotteries and casinos in Muslim countries. There aren't any. Tell me about the great corporations and banks of the Muslim world. There aren't any. Do you know that more books are translated into Spanish every year than have ever been translated into Arabic? A bright young man in the West goes to university and studies law, or commerce, or medicine, or science. A bright young man in the Muslim world goes to university and studies Islam.

Islam and all its prohibitions and demands on social behaviour, on commerce, on morals and criminality has had a massive impact on culture in Muslim-majority countries.

[ExFlyer]

Just now, I am Groot said:

Islam is a complete societal guide, from religion to law to social behaviour to government.  Or to quote Gad Saad, "Islam is 10% spiritual, 90% political". 

Do you think it's a mere coincidence that being openly gay is illegal in all Muslim countries across the globe? That no Muslim country, out of 50, treats men and women equally under the law? Tell me about the lotteries and casinos in Muslim countries. There aren't any. Tell me about the great corporations and banks of the Muslim world. There aren't any. Do you know that more books are translated into Spanish every year than have ever been translated into Arabic? A bright young man in the West goes to university and studies law, or commerce, or medicine, or science. A bright young man in the Muslim world goes to university and studies Islam.

Islam and all its prohibitions and demands on social behaviour, on commerce, on morals and criminality has had a massive impact on culture in Muslim-majority countries.

Incorrect "Islam is a monotheistic religion based on the Quran, teaching submission to the one God (Allah) and following the guidance of the Prophet Muhammad, emphasizing peace, justice, and a complete way of life, with core practices known as the Five Pillars, including faith, prayer, charity, fasting, and pilgrimage. Followers are called Muslims, and it's the world's second-largest religion, connecting to earlier prophets like Abraham, Moses, and Jesus"

[I am Groot]

Just now, ExFlyer said:

Incorrect "Islam is a monotheistic religion based on the Quran, teaching submission to the one God (Allah) and following the guidance of the Prophet Muhammad, emphasizing peace, justice, and a complete way of life, with core practices known as the Five Pillars, including faith, prayer, charity, fasting, and pilgrimage. Followers are called Muslims, and it's the world's second-largest religion, connecting to earlier prophets like Abraham, Moses, and Jesus"

Dude, don't quote me some entry from Wiki as if you know or even care what you're talking about.

Edited January 19 by I am Groot

[ExFlyer]

49 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Dude, don't quote me some entry from Wiki as if you know or even care what you're talking about.

I don't know that is why I quoted AI (as opposed to wiki).

Seems both Wiki and AI know a lot more than you so...you are welcome for being enlightened

[WestCanMan]

On 1/17/2026 at 11:18 AM, Michael Hardner said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity,_equity,_and_inclusion

Ok, read enough of it. It's crap

• DEI policies are often used by managers 1. to increase the productivity and collaborative efforts of their workforce and to reinforce positive communication.^[6] While DEI is most associated with non-elected government or corporate environments, it's commonly implemented within many types of organizations, such as charitable organizations, schools, and hospitals.^[7][8] 2. DEI policies often include certain training efforts, such as diversity training.

• DEI efforts and policies have generated criticism and controversy. Some criticism has been directed at 3. the specific effectiveness of its tools and 4. its effects on free speech and academic freedom, while other criticism has related to broader political or 5. philosophical objections. In addition, the term "DEI" has gained traction among conservative groups as a 5. derogatory term for minority groups in the United States.^[9][10]

1. That's just a lie. None of it is even remotely true... "Increasing productivity" is not a goal at all, it's a spin. You could rename "beating children" patience and sensitivity training if you wanted to, and say that it increases their "productivity and collaborative efforts" as well, but that's not how we should duscuss the topic of beating children.
2. "Certain training efforts" lol. They're talking about "revisionist history lessons and white guilt/shaming sessions" there, but even that's not the main "policy" of DEI any more than wearing clean gloves is the main goal when one is standing in the batter's box. DEI "alters hiring requirements to prevent the hiring of whites" just like a batter "uses a bat to hit a ball". Right? When you're describing something, usually start with the more important and prominent features first, like: T Rexes had big eyes and a long tail, vs T-rexes were enormous predators with oversized mouths that huge, sharp teeth for killing and eating prey, and comically small front legs.
3. Again, it's "effectiveness" isn't one of DEI's problems, but hamstringing businesses by forcing them to choose lesser candidates is. 
4. that's at least partially accurate, but it would be more accurate to say that it legitimizes racist tropes and slander
5. DEI isn't "a derogatory term for minority groups" at all, and I've never heard it used that way in my lifetime. It's a term that is used to accurately describe minority workers who are underqualified, useless, and unfireable. 

 

Does wiki describe islamic state as

• "a large group of people who live in complete harmony with one another and who share common goals and display an inspiring level of unity & dedication to their leaders. Their women are famously modest in their attire and attentive to their husbands and fathers"?

What I said there is all true enough for wiki, and I touched on almost all of the main points of islamic state society, but at the same time I stripped all of the starkly negative features from that description, making it not only worthless but also entirely misleading.