Carney Is Failing

[CdnFox]

31 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Preceding that however...the poor condition of the shipbuilding industry was well known...

It's a shame then that the NDP instead of building it up chose to kill it by mismanaging this project

 

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The condition of which had been deteriorating for decades under other ideologies and governments far and wide across the land and spectrum than just a few lefties in BC.

Bullshit

 

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The problem isn't government so much as the governed. It's been like this for generations.

Also bullshit. The problem is the shipbuilders themselves and more specifically their unions can't make themselves remotely competitive. And that's a problem

 

The condition of which had been deteriorating for decades under other ideologies and governments far and wide across the land and spectrum than just a few lefties in BC.

The problem isn't government so much as the governed. It's been like this for generations.

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Maybe we can do something about that but in the meantime we need new ferries now if not sooner. IDGAF where they come from.

Yeah, for all the belly aching about giving it to china, really there wasn't much other choice. Even if things change they're not going to change today and today is when they need new boats

 

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, LinkSoul60 said:

I don't at all disagree that ships for BC ferries should be built in Canada, but fact is they don't have the bandwidth to build them any time soon and up to a decade or more out.  As a resident in one of the BC coastal communities that depends on the ferries you'd be okay living with the delays and cancellations because of the aging fleet for another 10 years or more right?

The government and BC Ferries could do anything if they really wanted.  It is just a matter of leadership.

The could even bring skilled ship building people in from other countries and have them build some ferries faster in B.C. if they really wanted to.  They could hire some experienced builders from anywhere and bring them in and hire and train new people as well.  It is a question of will.  They don't care and won't bother.

They have access to all the capital they need from BC and the federal government.  I'm sure lots of companies would be attracted if the money were on the table.  Investors go where the money is.

But like everything the government touches, it is a failure.  Government means bureaucracy and you know how that works.  It is like a slow-moving train.

Edited September 30, 2025 by blackbird

[eyeball]

32 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It's a shame then that the NDP instead of building it up chose to kill it by mismanaging this project

It couldn't be anything but mismanaged given the state and  incapacity of the shipbuilding industry. That's what the gradual  hollowing out of an economy does, consequences pile up and are unavoidable.

32 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Also bullshit. The problem is the shipbuilders themselves and more specifically their unions can't make themselves remotely competitive. And that's a problem

That's probably more a consequence than a cause.

43 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Yeah, for all the belly aching about giving it to china, really there wasn't much other choice. Even if things change they're not going to change today and today is when they need new boats

We can always start changing things tomorrow. 

[CdnFox]

57 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It couldn't be anything but mismanaged given the state and  incapacity of the shipbuilding industry.

If that were true then they should never have put the project with them in the first place. So were the leftists inompetent for doing it or were the trade unions and the leftists incompetent  during the build?

Literally everybody at the time agreed that the shipyards were perfectly capable of it. So basically you're back to lying again. Big shock

58 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That's probably more a consequence than a cause

It can't be a consequence before the fact. Consequences are what happened after the fact

59 minutes ago, eyeball said:

We can always start changing things tomorrow. 

If we can't get you to even speak the truth today, there's no chance of changing things for the positive tomorrow. As long as people are willing to be dishonest with themselves to hold on to their political ideology in the face of facts nothing will ever change.

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Literally everybody at the time agreed that the shipyards were perfectly capable of it. So basically you're back to lying again. Big shock

They were lying not me. No big shock you blame the messenger when they're a leftie.

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It can't be a consequence before the fact. Consequences are what happened after the fact

And the fact is we'd hollowed out their capacity and sent it to China where nobody can compete with it. That's a consequence. Pay attention.

13 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

If we can't get you to even speak the truth today, there's no chance of changing things for the positive tomorrow. As long as people are willing to be dishonest with themselves to hold on to their political ideology in the face of facts nothing will ever change.

Sure kid.

[LinkSoul60]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The government and BC Ferries could do anything if they really wanted.  It is just a matter of leadership.

The could even bring skilled ship building people in from other countries and have them build some ferries faster in B.C. if they really wanted to.  They could hire some experienced builders from anywhere and bring them in and hire and train new people as well.  It is a question of will.  They don't care and won't bother.

They have access to all the capital they need from BC and the federal government.  I'm sure lots of companies would be attracted if the money were on the table.  Investors go where the money is.

But like everything the government touches, it is a failure.  Government means bureaucracy and you know how that works.  It is like a slow-moving train.

I don't think spending whatever it takes regardless of cost is the answer.  It's not realistic to think a company can just go out and build the needed infrastructure, and then go wherever it may be in the world to bring in skilled labor to build ships and be aware of responsible costs at the same time.  The Chinese bid was ~$1.2B less than the European bid and BC ferries expects to save ~$650M in interest over the terms of the loan. No Canadian bids because they knew they couldn't be competitive with union labor and the final price. BC needs updated ferries as soon as possible, not 10 years or more from now.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, LinkSoul60 said:

 It's not realistic to think a company can just go out and build the needed infrastructure,

Of course they could be built in B.C.  As I explained it is a matter of will to do it.  Politicians and bureaucrats just don't have the will and ability.  Manpower and skilled people could be brought in from anywhere. 

They took the easy way out and just signed a contract with China to do it all.  The present ferries are breaking down all the time and it will get much worse before the new ones arrive.

Edited September 30, 2025 by blackbird

[Nefarious Banana]

1 hour ago, LinkSoul60 said:

I don't think spending whatever it takes regardless of cost is the answer.  It's not realistic to think a company can just go out and build the needed infrastructure, and then go wherever it may be in the world to bring in skilled labor to build ships and be aware of responsible costs at the same time.

Perhaps a large portion of the BC Ferries contract could have been awarded out of country with a smaller portion awarded to a Canadian company . . . just to get the Canadian company up to speed and used to building these boats.  There will be more ferries needed in the future, and a Canadian company would know what was needed and expected of them.  Canada is capable of fulfilling its ferry needs.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

They were lying not me. No big shock you blame the messenger when they're a leftie.

Turns out two things can be true.  More of a case of  "AND' rather than "NOT' i think  

Sorry but the shipping industry could have handled it, but the unions screwed up and the gov't screwed up and now we don't have a shipbuilding industry. 

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

And the fact is we'd hollowed out their capacity and sent it to China where nobody can compete with it. That's a consequence. Pay attention.

That was still after the fact.  Something that occurs AFTER something cannot be the CAUSE of something. That's not how the universe works. Pay attention. 

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Sure kid.

[LinkSoul60]

42 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Of course they could be built in B.C.  As I explained it is a matter of will to do it.  Politicians and bureaucrats just don't have the will and ability.  Manpower and skilled people could be brought in from anywhere. 

They took the easy way out and just signed a contract with China to do it all.  The present ferries are breaking down all the time and it will get much worse before the new ones arrive.

Of course they could be.  With a much higher cost and time period before they receive....with both BC ferries and the province not being able to afford either.  You said it...these ships are breaking down and need to be replaced. Waiting a decade for a Canadian built ships isn't going to work, especially for the people who depend on this transportation. 

Again, I agree that ideally the ships are built in Canada, but that doesn't appear to be the reality right now. 

[LinkSoul60]

45 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Perhaps a large portion of the BC Ferries contract could have been awarded out of country with a smaller portion awarded to a Canadian company . . . just to get the Canadian company up to speed and used to building these boats.  There will be more ferries needed in the future, and a Canadian company would know what was needed and expected of them.  Canada is capable of fulfilling its ferry needs.

Absolutely, that would be the ideal solution to this situation they're in so long as Canadian bidders come forward and everyone is on board with inevitable much higher costs. 

[Shady]

Yep.

 

[ExFlyer]

On 9/30/2025 at 4:20 PM, blackbird said:

The government and BC Ferries could do anything if they really wanted.  It is just a matter of leadership.

The could even bring skilled ship building people in from other countries and have them build some ferries faster in B.C. if they really wanted to.  They could hire some experienced builders from anywhere and bring them in and hire and train new people as well.  It is a question of will.  They don't care and won't bother.

They have access to all the capital they need from BC and the federal government.  I'm sure lots of companies would be attracted if the money were on the table.  Investors go where the money is.

But like everything the government touches, it is a failure.  Government means bureaucracy and you know how that works.  It is like a slow-moving train.

Oh yeah, let them build it at a fishing pier in Steveston on the Fraser River LOL

You clearly are a fool.

There is no ship building facilitates in BC, that is not already under big contracts long term and building a facility would take many years.

That is why no shipbuilders made bids. No amount of money could make the ferries be built in BC.

[Shady]

26 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Oh yeah, let them build it at a fishing pier in Steveston on the Fraser River LOL

You clearly are a fool.

There is no ship building facilitates in BC, that is not already under big contracts long term and building a facility would take many years.

That is why no shipbuilders made bids. No amount of money could make the ferries be built in BC.

We could have at least made part of the deal building with Canadian steel, etc.  It was an epic failure during our “buy Canadian” phase:  stop apologizing for incompetence.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Shady said:

We could have at least made part of the deal building with Canadian steel, etc.  It was an epic failure during our “buy Canadian” phase:  stop apologizing for incompetence.

The ferry deal was in the works long before Trump. It began in 2021.

Canadian steel? When we were buying steel from China and selling it to the US and that is what pi$$ed off Trump??? 

"No Canadian companies placed a bid for BC Ferries' contract to build new vesselsaccording to BC Ferries and various news reports. Canadian shipyards like Davie and Seaspan declined to bid, citing the procurement process's focus on lowest price"

Incompetence?? By who? The Canadian shipyards???

The whole thing was a BC issue...no federal involvement at all.

 

Edited October 3, 2025 by ExFlyer

[Shady]

9 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

The ferry deal was in the works long before Trump. It began in 2021.

Canadian steel? When we were buying steel from China and selling it to the US and that is what pi$$ed off Trump??? 

"No Canadian companies placed a bid for BC Ferries' contract to build new vesselsaccording to BC Ferries and various news reports. Canadian shipyards like Davie and Seaspan declined to bid, citing the procurement process's focus on lowest price"

Incompetence?? By who? The Canadian shipyards???

The whole thing was a BC issue...no federal involvement at all.

 

Who cares if was in the works in 2021?  It's our money.  We can decide who we pay for this service.  Canadian steel as in it must be used for this project.  It's called putting Canada and Canadians first.  I know that's probably foreign to you, pun completely intended.

No companies placed a bid because they can't compete with Chinese companies, because Chinese companies don't have an industrial carbon tax to deal with.  But it shouldn't matter, buy Canadian should mean buy Canadian, even if it's more expensive.   Incompetence by the federal government.  You make it sound like they're so powerless.  If they wanted to make the changes they could have.  They dropped the ball.  It's federal tax money that should have been better allocated.  Stop trying to apologize for incompetence.  

[Shady]

Carney creates a new bureaucracy to streamline bureaucracy.

 

Carney appoints one of his banker buddies to lead the new agency on defence procurement, who has no defence experience.

 

[ExFlyer]

38 minutes ago, Shady said:

Who cares if was in the works in 2021?  It's our money.  We can decide who we pay for this service.  Canadian steel as in it must be used for this project.  It's called putting Canada and Canadians first.  I know that's probably foreign to you, pun completely intended.

No companies placed a bid because they can't compete with Chinese companies, because Chinese companies don't have an industrial carbon tax to deal with.  But it shouldn't matter, buy Canadian should mean buy Canadian, even if it's more expensive.   Incompetence by the federal government.  You make it sound like they're so powerless.  If they wanted to make the changes they could have.  They dropped the ball.  It's federal tax money that should have been better allocated.  Stop trying to apologize for incompetence.  

Wow....what a uninformed person you are.

It is BC taxpayer money.

If Canadian companies cannot bid...that is their and their unions problems. Are you so uninformed as to why so much of our manufacturing left Canada?? We cost ourselves out of business. Not a federal government problem...our personal problem.
And, once again, the BC Ferry procurement is not a federal procurement...it is a BC government procurement.

The only incompetence is your failure to understand and accept the facts LOL

 

[Shady]

4 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Wow....what a uninformed person you are.

It is BC taxpayer money.

If Canadian companies cannot bid...that is their and their unions problems. Are you so uninformed as to why so much of our manufacturing left Canada?? We cost ourselves out of business. Not a federal government problem...our personal problem.
And, once again, the BC Ferry procurement is not a federal procurement...it is a BC government procurement.

The only incompetence is your failure to understand and accept the facts LOL

 

You're the one uninformed, and you continue to apologize and excuse incompetence.

Anger over BC Ferries deal with China in wake of leaked report on building locally

https://cheknews.ca/rob-shaw-anger-over-bc-ferries-deal-with-china-in-wake-of-leaked-report-on-building-locally-1281640/

 

[eyeball]

33 minutes ago, Shady said:

Who cares if was in the works in 2021?  It's our money.  We can decide who we pay for this service.  Canadian steel as in it must be used for this project.  It's called putting Canada and Canadians first.  I know that's probably foreign to you, pun completely intended.

It's even funnier when I recall people protesting against barge full after barge full of Canadian timber being shipped off to Asia instead of us benefitting from the value foreigners added to it. That was decades ago.

When it came to putting Canadians first back then you people usually pointed at countries where people work 18 hours a day for a fraction of the wages lazy unions in Canada demanded - roll up your sleeves you people said with elbows up and a smirk.

Of course anyone who complained was an anti-capitalist commie. 

 

 

[Shady]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's even funnier when I recall people protesting against barge full after barge full of Canadian timber being shipped off to Asia instead of us benefitting from the value foreigners added to it. That was decades ago.

When it came to putting Canadians first back then you people usually pointed at countries where people work 18 hours a day for a fraction of the wages lazy unions in Canada demanded - roll up your sleeves you people said with elbows up and a smirk.

Of course anyone who complained was an anti-capitalist commie. 

 

 

I don’t know what you’re talking about.  Cool story though.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, Shady said:

I don’t know what you’re talking about.  Cool story though.

Yeah, you were probably just a little kid back then.

[Shady]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yeah, you were probably just a little kid back then.

Ok.  Let me know when you have something to say about this specific issue.  

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Shady said:

Who cares if was in the works in 2021?  It's our money.  We can decide who we pay for this service.  Canadian steel as in it must be used for this project.  It's called putting Canada and Canadians first.  I know that's probably foreign to you, pun completely intended.

No companies placed a bid because they can't compete with Chinese companies, because Chinese companies don't have an industrial carbon tax to deal with.  But it shouldn't matter, buy Canadian should mean buy Canadian, even if it's more expensive.   Incompetence by the federal government.  You make it sound like they're so powerless.  If they wanted to make the changes they could have.  They dropped the ball.  It's federal tax money that should have been better allocated.  Stop trying to apologize for incompetence.  

Here's the challenge, and while I admit that it's somewhat unfair it's also entirely fair.

The last time the NDP was in power back in the day they decided that they wanted to invest in local shipbuilding and have local shipyards build their new fairies. The shipyards would grow into it and while they weren't perfectly set up yet they would be and it was a great way to build BC's businesses.

It failed so spectacularly that it played a huge role in the absolute destruction of the NDP a short time laterIt cannot be stressed just what a disaster it was

So if we're being honest I can kind of understand how the current NDP might look at things and say they were going to keep their hand absolutely 100% out of it and not put their neck out again considering how badly it went for them.

That might not have been the right thing to do, but it was probably the correct political thing to do and it's hard to be really mad at them considering if they were right nobody would care and if they were wrong they'd be destroyed.

Politics is still a part of politics.

[Legato]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

The last time the NDP was in power back in the day they decided that they wanted to invest in local shipbuilding and have local shipyards build their new fairies. 

 

They tried without a magic wand.

Good one 🤣