Why Are We Doing This U.S. Vs. Canada Thing?

[herbie]

paxamericana

If you actually believe every bit of the MAGA bullshit about Canada, you're even dumber and less credible than I could even imagine possible.
But all you accomplish trolling Canadians is more disrespect for average Americans which is definitely not something to take pride in.

We can understand how any country can have a massive electoral brain fart, even two, but we refer to the words on the Peace Arch: Two brothers of a common Mother.
We realize and accept who is the big brother, but we all know many big brothers can be arseholes sometimes and some can't help bragging about it.

Try thinking about that.

[paxamericana]

28 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

China and India

They both are sub replacement in fertility, by 2040 the average Indian would be older than the average American, China would have ceased to exist as a coherent economic society by then. Canadian manufacturers are not globally competitive, your work forced has aged past retirement. 

[paxamericana]

52 minutes ago, herbie said:

big brothers can be arseholes

You think Americans enjoy punishing Canada? We do not. America is only doing what is needed to be done , to redirect Canada’s bad behavior, so that Canada can make the right choice. It’s called tough love. America actually want Canada to stop being a petulant little brother and join the family business. All Canada’s Elbows up has managed to do in the past year is waste our time and hurt yourself. Trump has a vision for Canada and its far grander than what your Canadian pride allows you to see.

Edited November 24, 2025 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, paxamericana said:

They both are sub replacement in fertility, by 2040 the average Indian would be older than the average American, China would have ceased to exist as a coherent economic society by then. Canadian manufacturers are not globally competitive, your work forced has aged past retirement. 

But every developed country pretty much except Israel isn’t replacing itself through reproduction.  The U.S. has a much smaller population than China and India and flatter growth than both.  Both countries will have bigger economies than the U.S. very soon, even if their populations decline over time at a slightly greater rate.

Let’s not split hairs here.  I don’t think most Canadians want less trade with or more distance in relations from the U.S., but it doesn’t serve our long term interests to be so dependent on one country.  It’s not desperate, but if exports to the U.S. represent 20% of our GDP, and at any given time a U.S. president/government can take away even 20% of those jobs and revenue, it doesn’t serve us to face that kind of volatility.  We have no choice but to diversify our trade.  

Edited November 25, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, paxamericana said:

You think Americans enjoy punishing Canada? We do not. America is only doing what is needed to be done , to redirect Canada’s bad behavior, so that Canada can make the right choice. It’s called tough love. America actually want Canada to stop being a petulant little brother and join the family business. All Canada’s Elbows up has managed to do in the past year is waste our time and hurt yourself. Trump has a vision for Canada and its far grander than what your Canadian pride allows you to see.

But he hasn’t articulated that vision and shown us why it’s a better position to be in.  He jumped straight to coercion and disrespect.  Making Canada one US state is a silly non-starter.  Adding economic threat just stokes anti-Americanism.

Present a serious, inspiring vision that captures people’s imaginations on both sides of the border.  Anything less will fail flat.  Canada has too much going for it to simply hand itself over, especially to a divided country with some serious problems to contend with.  Canada has its own problems.

Edited November 25, 2025 by Zeitgeist

[herbie]

4 hours ago, paxamericana said:

America is only doing what is needed to be done

Wish that was true. The reality is that Trump is doing what he wants to do, regardless of the USA's best interests.

[Down East]

I thought that Trump might screw with Canada after being elected due to past relationship with Trudeau, but I never knew to what extent. I had a couple minor pet peeves myself with Canadian trade, but this is the sort of thing that real leadership would be able to fix with a few phone calls back and forth.

To be honest, I sort of agreed with Trump as when it came to Trudeau.  I always thought Trudeau was a arrogant douche, and a weak leader.  

Looking in from the outside, Carney appears to be more measured and restrained. Regardless of his politics, he seems like a guy that you could have a long polite conversation with and make a deal. He is what Canada needs right now when dealing with the likes of Trump.

Edited November 25, 2025 by Down East

[John Stone]

5 hours ago, Down East said:

I thought that Trump might screw with Canada after being elected due to past relationship with Trudeau, but I never knew to what extent. I had a couple minor pet peeves myself with Canadian trade, but this is the sort of thing that real leadership would be able to fix with a few phone calls back and forth.

To be honest, I sort of agreed with Trump as when it came to Trudeau.  I always thought Trudeau was a arrogant douche, and a weak leader.  

Looking in from the outside, Carney appears to be more measured and restrained. Regardless of his politics, he seems like a guy that you could have a long polite conversation with and make a deal. He is what Canada needs right now when dealing with the likes of Trump.

Carney has the bona-fides to lead, a proven leader. For the life of me i can't understand HOW Justin  became leader of the Liberal Party and even less how he became PM with tenure ......nice guy but a dreamer and no leader and certainly no international  respect. (India debacle???). Definite post-turtle! 

[CdnFox]

13 hours ago, Down East said:

I thought that Trump might screw with Canada after being elected due to past relationship with Trudeau, but I never knew to what extent. I had a couple minor pet peeves myself with Canadian trade, but this is the sort of thing that real leadership would be able to fix with a few phone calls back and forth.

To be honest, I sort of agreed with Trump as when it came to Trudeau.  I always thought Trudeau was a arrogant douche, and a weak leader.  

Looking in from the outside, Carney appears to be more measured and restrained. Regardless of his politics, he seems like a guy that you could have a long polite conversation with and make a deal. He is what Canada needs right now when dealing with the likes of Trump.

He sees Carney as weak. Trump will always go for the throat with a weak opponent.

And Carney has been weak. He's given trump every single thing he wanted as fast as trump could ask for it. You just can't do that with trump, he assumes that if you give up that easy there must be more that you're willing to give up.

Carney has absolutely no experience with government to government negotiations and unfortunately we're seeing the results

[eyeball]

On 11/17/2025 at 11:18 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Sometimes I think the Canadian government is exactly what’s holding Canada back, but Canadians hear the coercive rhetoric from the south and cling to what they know.

Speaking about Canadians clinging to what they know, what did you think about the various ideas for reforming our government and how to represent Canadians better that were kicked around back in the day?

A Citizens Assembly was always my favourite idea - a Parliament drafted at random from the general population. Vetted like jurists. I think something like that coupled with a professional science-based technocracy, occasional public referenda and of course the process guardians I often talk about to observe, record and report what our government is doing would be the bees knees.

Political parties should be treated no differently than any other social club like the Kiwanis or Masons. All things being equal these political clubs could always expect a certain percentage of the Assembled Citizens will also belong to their club giving them lots of opportunities to be influential and maybe even relevant.

Edited November 26, 2025 by eyeball

[eyeball]

On 11/24/2025 at 9:37 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Low birth rate is cultural suicide.

OTOH a high birth rate is suicide by overpopulation. Especially if every culture starts believing it faces an existential threat by not keeping up or worse getting ahead.

The catastrophism being spun here seems to mirror that which is often attributed to people concerned about climate change and you see the very same thing if not worse coming from the economy trumps virtue along with everything else  crowd.

We're all gonna DIEEEEEE!!!! no matter what it seems. Somehow I doubt it but it'll still feel like it's forever imminent.

Of course beings all over the universe probably get that too so...maybe just take a deep breath.

[Down East]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

He sees Carney as weak. Trump will always go for the throat with a weak opponent.

And Carney has been weak. He's given trump every single thing he wanted as fast as trump could ask for it. You just can't do that with trump, he assumes that if you give up that easy there must be more that you're willing to give up.

Carney has absolutely no experience with government to government negotiations and unfortunately we're seeing the results

I don't see Carney as a weak leader. He's just not a blowhard.  He is trying to make deals with other countries while Trump makes all the noise with his shifting tariffs. If Carney continues with diversifying the Canadian economy and can show at least some signs of success, then Trump's influence will become less of a factor on Canada's economy.  Carney is playing the long game here.

Regardless of how good the US/Can relations were prior to Trump, I'm still dumbfounded as to why Canada's past leadership allowed it's export economy to be dependent to the tune of 80% +/- on the US.  

[John Stone]

4 hours ago, Down East said:

I don't see Carney as a weak leader. He's just not a blowhard.  He is trying to make deals with other countries while Trump makes all the noise with his shifting tariffs. If Carney continues with diversifying the Canadian economy and can show at least some signs of success, then Trump's influence will become less of a factor on Canada's economy.  Carney is playing the long game here.

Regardless of how good the US/Can relations were prior to Trump, I'm still dumbfounded as to why Canada's past leadership allowed it's export economy to be dependent to the tune of 80% +/- on the US.  

 

4 hours ago, Down East said:

I don't see Carney as a weak leader. He's just not a blowhard.  He is trying to make deals with other countries while Trump makes all the noise with his shifting tariffs. If Carney continues with diversifying the Canadian economy and can show at least some signs of success, then Trump's influence will become less of a factor on Canada's economy.  Carney is playing the long game here.

Regardless of how good the US/Can relations were prior to Trump, I'm still dumbfounded as to why Canada's past leadership allowed it's export economy to be dependent to the tune of 80% +/- on the US.  

Trump's concern with Carney is that Carney has international respect............. 

I'll be forever curious how Carney would have handled the so-called '2 Michaels' fiasco.

............... no question Justin was punked by Trump - OMG

 

[Zeitgeist]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

Speaking about Canadians clinging to what they know, what did you think about the various ideas for reforming our government and how to represent Canadians better that were kicked around back in the day?

A Citizens Assembly was always my favourite idea - a Parliament drafted at random from the general population. Vetted like jurists. I think something like that coupled with a professional science-based technocracy, occasional public referenda and of course the process guardians I often talk about to observe, record and report what our government is doing would be the bees knees.

Political parties should be treated no differently than any other social club like the Kiwanis or Masons. All things being equal these political clubs could always expect a certain percentage of the Assembled Citizens will also belong to their club giving them lots of opportunities to be influential and maybe even relevant.

Yes I think more transparency and accountability to the public are good things.  I see a lot of programs and policies come out of the PMO that are costly and of little or no value to most Canadians.  It’s usually for an international audience that barely exists in an attempt to say, Look how progressive we are.   Well now we’ve overspent and the government is trying to salvage our economy and sovereignty, and having to put us further into debt to do it.   No one had a public discussion about the kind of country we want and what it will take to get there.  

[CdnFox]

9 hours ago, Down East said:

I don't see Carney as a weak leader. He's just not a blowhard.  He is trying to make deals with other countries while Trump makes all the noise with his shifting tariffs. If Carney continues with diversifying the Canadian economy and can show at least some signs of success, then Trump's influence will become less of a factor on Canada's economy.  Carney is playing the long game here.

 

Insanely weak when it comes to negotiations. Remember his entire pitch for being elected was that he could handle Donald Trump and he knew how to do negotiations. But the number one thing with trump is you can't look weak and unfortunately Carey looked very very weak.

If you give something to trump that he wants without getting something in return then he assumes you'll always give him whatever he asks for and he will always ask for more. As a result we are now negotiating from a place of weakness.

There's no arguing that it's just the way it is. We've reduced almost all our tariffs, and trump has several times increased his so he's happy making more money. 

Now he won't even talk trade with us. Trump could not give a flying fig whether or not any trade agreements are reached right now and that hurts Canada and Carney has nothing to use to get that going again because he's giving them everything he wanted.

Meanwhile we haven't got any new trade deals. Do we.  He's been working on this for almost a year now and no new trade deals and it doesn't sound like we're close to anything.  And none of that will replace what we've lost with the us even if it did happen. 

And what about all the other 'trump defense' tools?  We were going to "build baby build" remember?  Yet again we're almost a year in and there are NO new projects that weren't underway already and didn't need help, and a Canadian company just announced they're building billions worth of new terminals in the us and not canada.  Why didn't carney help get us that deal?

And how about interprovincial trade? Carney said THAT ALONE would replace the lost business the US Tariffs were costing us, if trade barriers were removed between provinces we'd have billions more in revenues. He was going to work with all the provinces, he was going to be the great leader and negotiate and get a deal between all of them. 

Instead interprovincial tariffs have gone up not down since he's gotten elected

Our economy is basically in recession and we're losing ground to all our partners in the g20. 

 

The problem isn't that carney is weak. It's that he's incompetent. He has no idea what he's doing. But the US looks at that as being weak. 

[CdnFox]

9 hours ago, Down East said:

Regardless of how good the US/Can relations were prior to Trump, I'm still dumbfounded as to why Canada's past leadership allowed it's export economy to be dependent to the tune of 80% +/- on the US.  

The reason for that is pretty simple, the biggest driver was interprovincial trade barriers.  It's literally easier to do business with the states than it is with neighbouring provinces.  The provincial leaders didn't want to fix that because they needed the protectionism and revenues from that. The feds didn't want to weigh in because there's no benefit for them to meddle with the provinces politically. 

[paxamericana]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

The reason for that is pretty simple, the biggest driver was interprovincial trade barriers.  It's literally easier to do business with the states than it is with neighbouring provinces.  The provincial leaders didn't want to fix that because they needed the protectionism and revenues from that. The feds didn't want to weigh in because there's no benefit for them to meddle with the provinces politically. 

Ah yes the patchwork of hatred.

[John Stone]

 

.................... World opinion of the U.S. 

[paxamericana]

9 minutes ago, John Stone said:

 

.................... World opinion of the U.S. 

Please explain why the world’s security guarantor, currency reserve and largest economy should care in the first place?

Edited November 26, 2025 by paxamericana

[John Stone]

2 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Please explain why the world’s security guarantor, currency reserve and largest economy should care in the first place?

................... 

[paxamericana]

7 minutes ago, John Stone said:

................... 

Not really. Genuinely curious of why America should care. Isolationism is an American pastime.

[John Stone]

28 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Not really. Genuinely curious of why America should care. Isolationism is an American pastime.

oh man, on the contrary!! I suspect you know the correct answer but want to be stroked. 

The United States is a great power  - a superpower - no question.  That said, the idea that a great power can survive as such and be isolationist is absolutely absurd. HISTORICALLY the U.S. has engaged in international affairs using economic or its  military as leverage.   (Marshal Plan?) Isolationism is a no-win strategy in terms of national security or in growing the  economy  (freedom of the seas?). ACTIVE ENGAGEMENT in World affairs has been crucial to the U.S. in attaining supremacy and is even more crucial if it hopes to maintain influence and security. 

Teddy Roosevelt is quoted as saying, 'walk softly BUT carry a big stick'? Sound advice, especially in todays world.  

Edited November 26, 2025 by John Stone

[Legato]

37 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Not really. Genuinely curious of why America should care. Isolationism is an American pastime.

Youse guy's call witch-pi*s beer. Isolate that first.

The Bud's so light it needs a girly-man can, to hold it down.

[paxamericana]

25 minutes ago, John Stone said:

oh man, on the contrary!! I suspect you know the correct answer but want to be stroked. 

It’s not good enough that I know. My fellow country men has to agree. Why should we pay for another alliance economic or otherwise. 

 

26 minutes ago, John Stone said:

ACTIVE ENGAGEMENT in World affairs has been crucial to the U.S. in attaining supremacy and is even more crucial if it hopes to maintain influence and security. 

You can thank Stalin for that. But again, the Soviets are defeated , why should we maintain the global order or in layman terms, care?

[John Stone]

38 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

It’s not good enough that I know. My fellow country men has to agree. Why should we pay for another alliance economic or otherwise. 

 

You can thank Stalin for that. But again, the Soviets are defeated , why should we maintain the global order or in layman terms, care?

Simple, because the U.S. has the MOST to lose, baby!