A serious discussion on racial profiling respecting mass murder and se

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

Newbie - im going to reiterate what i wrote to Argus in a previous post - Temagami made one statement that almost all the serial killers and mass murderers in Canada were caucasian. If you have supporting facts to the contrary id like to read them.

I also made a statement to Argus - relating that if he couldnt provide a constructive argument he could just read the articles and not reply to them. Youve chosen not to ad any more to this thread - Is it because you have nothing constructive to add, or are you the intolerant one who cant stand to read an opposing viewpoint? and therefore has shied away from it.

I do agree whole heartedly that some of Mr. T's comments have been sarcastic - however, he has never crossed the line by threatening anyone.

big·ot ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bgt)

n.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Actually T, you'd get much further if you calm down a bit. You haven't won the argument; you've only shown your true colours with your bigotry and sarcasm. You will have no further response from me.

[August1991]

OMG.

I alternately find this thread repugnant and fascinating. Burns' post above is particularly over the top and I, for one, have reported it. Making empty threats on an Internet forum is ultimately pathetic but a threat is a threat.

Many years ago, I arrived at the observation that white North Americans view three groups in North America as never-happy-whiners: blacks, Indians and the French. There is some sense to this. These three groups never chose to come here. Indians were already here when all these people suddenly showed up. Blacks were forced to come here. The French were here and then the English took over everything.

Nowadays, of the three groups, the French have arguably the better lot since Quebec is a place to call home and over time, the Quebec government has achieved a degree of autonomy.

Betsy has noted that she is an immigrant and so she chose to come here. As a result, she had to accept many adjustments and difficulties but she did this voluntarily since it was her choice. There are many people in the world who choose not to make these adjustments, preferring instead to stay with the known and traditional.

I don't know if it is reasonable to speak about the situation of an individual alive today by referring to the situation of one of their ancestors alive three centuries ago. But many people identify with a collective if only through language and the accent used to speak it. It would be foolish to deny this or pretend it doesn't exist.

...and I'll say this again: Serial Killing and mass murder can happen anywhere in the world, and can be committed by anyone of any race, HOWEVER, IN CANADA serial killings and mass murder have been the domain of one subgroup of society. That indicates a social problem. I want to help overcome that problem, as well as not become a victim.

My point was that if a whiteman points to an Indian and asks, "Why are so many of you in prison?", it is lame for the Indian to repond, "Why are all serial killers white Caucasian?" Well, lame according to my way of thinking.

While both questions are legitimate, they don't really get anyone anywhere.

It's a fact that Canadian prisons hold a far larger percentage of Native Indians than are found in the general population. Pointing out that mass murderers tend to be white males doesn't change that fact, anymore than pointing to a female shoplifter somehow changes the fact that most people in prison are men.

You've gone off-topic again. I don't see the relevance between incarcerated Aboriginal people and serial killers and mass-murderers.

See above.

IOW, if you think you are helping whites to understand better Native Indians, pointing to white mass murderers is not the way to go.

What? I'm not trying to help anyone better understand Native people....

listen August, don't get any idea that I'm some Noble Indian here to set the record straight. I've learned a long time ago that people in this country by and large already have preconceived ideas that are unshakeable. I know damn well that the minute my back is turned, that someone makes a comment. If you haven't figured that out yet, then we live in different worlds, but to me, that is reality.

Noble? As in wise old man of the woods? No. But I have been impressed with your sense of humour and lively style.

And I do think you're here to change people's minds and I think you might succeed too.

With all that said, I'll add a final point. The hallmark of North American life is freedom of the individual, and that implies many things. For many on this planet elsewhere, family, community, social, religious pressures confine individual freedom.

Now, you tell me, which society will be more successful inthe long run: the society that allows individual freedom (with its good and bad points) or the society that tries to llimit an individual's choices?

The society that lets the individual know that they are free to do as they please as long as they do not harm others, and that the individual abides by the social norms. That is the perfect society.

but between you and I, it's too bad the Indian Act only affects me.

The Indian Act. God, I feel sorry for any politician who has to oversee that monstrosity or any bureaucrat caught up in its maw. It's like a wedding in dysfunctional family. Disastrous as it will be, you can't not go.

[betsy]

I already asked the moderator to lock the thread two days ago as I knew it was going where it currently is, so I'm left to wait and rebut until that time.

I will comply with the request and refrain from adding anymore to this thread.

[Argus]

Argus:

Except it wasn't your house. It didn't belong to you. You lived on tiny pieces of it. The vast land holdings was a European concept to begin with.

Besides, half the time you stole what you had from some other tribe, and killed them all so they couldn't complain afterwards.

please, can you prove that Natives didn't own the land before Europeans stepped foot here?

Prove they did.

[Argus]

Argus - Temagami has never advocated violence against anyone, or threatened anybody

And I dont think the intention of this thread was to bring about posts like that.

Sure it was. The intent of this thread was to make people angry and get them to say nasty things about natives. That's the whole reason for the title and his behaviour. How many people have already called him on it?

[BubberMiley]

Sure it was. The intent of this thread was to make people angry and get them to say nasty things about natives. That's the whole reason for the title and his behaviour. How many people have already called him on it?

Actually he clearly said a "serious" discussion. You however have started threads like "What's so wrong with kiddy porn anyway?" Talk about trolling.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

I agree the post was definitely engineered to provoke a response. AND for the most part a reasonable discussion took place on both sides of this argument. I guess I felt the core of the subject was racial profiling in general and not bashing one race or ethnicity.

But why would people single out Natives to say nasty things about?

Just becasue the topic starter is presumed Native?

So....some people are offended by a part of the opening statement and focus on it..., and again i say - skipped over a large issue in racial profiling, and a potentially succesful debate.

I personally feel racial profiling is the wrong path, I just cant see how harassing people without proof based on race is going to help in any situation. I realise this may not be a popular viewpoint but id rather see more effort directed towards real threats by using vigilance instead of wasting time detaining innocent people. I wonder, if by detaining some of these innocent people are we distracting oursleves and letting potential threats go unnoticed?

[newbie]

I agree the post was definitely engineered to provoke a response. AND for the most part a reasonable discussion took place on both sides of this argument. I guess I felt the core of the subject was racial profiling in general and not bashing one race or ethnicity.

But why would people single out Natives to say nasty things about?

Just becasue the topic starter is presumed Native?

It be like me starting a thread saying, "Why are there so many Indians in jail?" and adding "Don't think for a minute that this thread is about bashing Natives, although they may be prone to become lazy, shiftless addicts." Get the point?

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

If you are going to make those comments back up your statements with facts not hearsay

Temagami's opening comment is factual - but if you can refute that statement with facts and not bash another race with stereotypical and racist commentary in the process - I really do want to read about it.

Further - those examples of stereotypes you provided - while not used as Thread starting material, are no strangers to this forum.

I agree the post was definitely engineered to provoke a response. AND for the most part a reasonable discussion took place on both sides of this argument. I guess I felt the core of the subject was racial profiling in general and not bashing one race or ethnicity.

But why would people single out Natives to say nasty things about?

Just becasue the topic starter is presumed Native?

It be like me starting a thread saying, "Why are there so many Indians in jail?" and adding "Don't think for a minute that this thread is about bashing Natives, although they may be prone to become lazy, shiftless addicts." Get the point?

[Argus]

I agree the post was definitely engineered to provoke a response. AND for the most part a reasonable discussion took place on both sides of this argument. I guess I felt the core of the subject was racial profiling in general and not bashing one race or ethnicity.

But why would people single out Natives to say nasty things about?

Just becasue the topic starter is presumed Native?

It be like me starting a thread saying, "Why are there so many Indians in jail?" and adding "Don't think for a minute that this thread is about bashing Natives, although they may be prone to become lazy, shiftless addicts." Get the point?

Actually, it's worse than that. There is a problem with natives and the law. Their numbers in prisons are vastly disproportionate to their population. That is a known fact and you can see statistics and sociological writeups on it from a wide variety of sources, including many native sources. You could discuss this with a genuine intent to find out why and discuss solutions.

But saying that all serial killers are white - at least in Canada, at least lately, though supplying no evidence whatsoever to back that up, while the population is only 87% white - is ludicrous. Especially as it came from scourge, who threw numerous temper tantrums in another thread because of cites about Jamaicans and crime. No, this thread, as many have observed, is nothing more than flamebait. It is to the moderator's discredit that it wasn't closed immediately.

[Argus]

If you are going to make those comments back up your statements with facts not hearsay

Temagami's opening comment is factual -

Who says his opening comment is factual? He supported it with no evidence whatsoever. He said, to paraphrase, "well, all the faces I remember seeing in the news are white". That is not evidence of any sort.

[Greg]

This flame-bait thread has run its course. It seems some of you children can't play nicely together.

Assessing who's at fault here isn't the way I wanted to spend my weekend.

Lets all take a break frm the native/Caledonia issues and use some common-sense when discussing these types of issues.