A serious discussion on racial profiling respecting mass murder and se

[betsy]

And are continuing to endure?

Who, the folks at Kaledonia? You mean the taxpayers who are refusing to let their kids play the Six Nations youth baseball team because they are still mad at Six Nations? You mean people who'd use their own kids to strike back at those "non-tax-paying natives".

Taxpayers.

[newbie]

I would like to see what you mean when you mention Canadians being equal. Many have said it, but they also don't mean it.

Not too hard to figure out. Rescind all special status for everyone. Don't you think that treaties and reservations are holding the rest of Canada hostage, like the French demands as well? How about we pay all individual natives out once and for all, teach some integration skills and be done with it. There has to come a time T. when we can no longer support all reservation natives. This is not the 1800's, and the claim that "the white man has caused us to be like we are (addicts)" is wearing real thin. How long to you expect to ride on Canada's shirt tails. Equal to me means equal, like everyone else who wakes up and goes to work and earns his way in the world. Yeah, I grant you the Natives might have got a few rough shakes in the process, but so did a lot of a people. I live between two huge reservations and now our city is contemplating an urban reserve. When is enough is enough?

[betsy]

I'm sorry Betsy, but if you feel so hard done by with your taxes and all, then why not move away? Didn't your ancestors come here because things weren't that good in the old country? If you truly feel that you are so "oppressed", than do what your ancestors would have done and feel free to move to a country where you aren't taxed as badly. I pay tax here, and I think Canada is a great country. I can travel all over the place and see all this country has to offer...I can choose to live wherever I want, and I don't whine about my taxes, but I do get upset with legislation.

But why should I move away? I am a Canadian. Same as you.

And I am just voicing out my opinion as a citizen.

I'm the only one here....got some folks back home but seems they don't want to relocate. I came here by my own accord, after deciding that I like the western way of life.

It's not the tax-paying that I'm complaining about...it's the way the tax dollars are being spent.

It is not my intention to insult you. We are discussing a touchy topic that obviously has the potential to ignite or bring up other issues. This is a forum....where opinions are brought out.

All I'm trying to say Temagami is that history could've been much worse.

[Temagami Scourge]

Newbie:

Not too hard to figure out. Rescind all special status for everyone. Don't you think that treaties and reservations are holding the rest of Canada hostage, like the French demands as well?

Not really. But as i've oft said on this site, I'd gladly exchange all the status benefits and treaty rights in exchange for the land. That was the original deal. I don't see why you should get anything for free when the rest of us need to work for what we have.

How about we pay all individual natives out once and for all, teach some integration skills and be done with it.

For the most part, the Natives want the land. I'm sure some would want money, but we are all different in our outlook. Additionally, after seeing what "wonderful" neighbours Kaledonians turned out to be, I think pushing the idea of integration is asking a bit much, isn't it?

There has to come a time T. when we can no longer support all reservation natives.

What one calls "support", another calls "mortgage payment". We exchanged our land for a number of benefits, rights and a plot that remained under our control. Now you don't want to pay. Hmmmm. and you have the gall to say that Natives get free stuff. We don't get anything for free, we traded the land, and you can't grasp that.

This is not the 1800's, and the claim that "the white man has caused us to be like we are (addicts)" is wearing real thin.

Of course this is not the 1800's...Natives are far more sophisticated now. In fact, we are so sophisticated in our approach that it pisses off many Canadians who have this idea that Natives should be content with trinkets and baubles, and should live in the 1800's...kinda like you. Unfortunately, common sense and respect for agreements are lost on people like you who expect free stuff for nothing.

How long to you expect to ride on Canada's shirt tails.

As long as Canada owns the land. As per our legal agreement, give the land back, and we'll no longer be tax exempt or have any further treaty rights or benefits. Fair enough?

Equal to me means equal, like everyone else who wakes up and goes to work and earns his way in the world.

Are you assuming I don't? Don't worry, your in good company already. Many others naturally assume I and the other Native folks on these boards don't work.

Whereas, I know that 100% of Canada's serial killers and mass murderers are Caucasian, and that's not an assumption, that's the truth.

Yeah, I grant you the Natives might have got a few rough shakes in the process, but so did a lot of a people. I live between two huge reservations and now our city is contemplating an urban reserve. When is enough is enough?

When is enough enough? I don't know, ask the folks that were raped at residential school that question and then get back to us.

Oh...and violent child rape was not a treaty benefit too, in case you get that mixed up.

[Temagami Scourge]

But why should I move away? I am a Canadian. Same as you.

And I am just voicing out my opinion as a citizen.

I'm the only one here....got some folks back home but seems they don't want to relocate. I came here by my own accord, after deciding that I like the western way of life.

It's not the tax-paying that I'm complaining about...it's the way the tax dollars are being spent.

It is not my intention to insult you. We are discussing a touchy topic that obviously has the potential to ignite or bring up other issues. This is a forum....where opinions are brought out.

All I'm trying to say Temagami is that history could've been much worse.

...and all I'm trying to say Betsy is that you really have no knowledge of Canadian history, just judging from your comments.

You should listen to me more often. I'm quite the student of Canadian history. American too. Unlike many others here, I don't get my understanding of history from watching old John Wayne movies.

[Temagami Scourge]

Monty: (Partie une)

Euro-Canadian? What are you? Another August1991 who constantly uses the term Anglo-Canadian?

No. I have nothing to do with August. In fact, he too takes umbrage with this thread, so i'm of the impression that you two have much in common. Additionally, if you find the terms "Euro-Canadian" and "Caucasian-canadian" too harsh, how's about I call you "Taxpayer"?

Would that help?

I stayed out of the war you started in the Provincial Politics forums

I should think so, you don't seem to have a clue about what we were talking about just judging from what you written here. You saved yourself much embarrassment, Taxpayer.

but I am sick and tired of you lazy socialist shit-sucking anal leeches mooching off of us Caucasians.

Mooching? How? treaty agreements are one thing, but I pay my taxes, and I'm glad that some of it goes to maintaining Canada's treaty obligations. If you aren't then feel free to leave this country for another where your taxes don't hurt as much.

My great-grandparents came to this country from the Ukraine, bought shit farmland, worked their fingers to the bone and garnered little through their lifetime and they didn't run around saying, "THE GOVT OWES ME!!"

I wouldn't say that either if I had surrendered like they probably did. You can thank my two Native Grandfather's who probably accepted their surrender during the First War. I'm sorry about the farmland, but face it, you're Ukrainian, what do you expect?

I am sick and tired of you lazy drunks trying to shake me down for money in downtown Saskatoon

Cool! So if you are willing to throw me in the same group as homeless Saskatoon Natives, then it is fair to put you in the same group as child-raping priests! However, I won't. I know that are not representative of every white person in Canada because that would be a gross insult to white people in Canada. Also, it highlights my intellectual superiority because I don't make blanket assumptions about people and beleieve that all are the same. that is shallow, much like your train of thought...or should I say tricycle of thought (hahahah....that's a good one)!

con't

[Temagami Scourge]

Monty: Partie deux

(you're VERY f'n lucky I haven't shot any of you leeches--yes I usually pack when I go downtown in Saskatoon, you people have murdered too many whites for my good)

Are you saying you are a serial killer? Is it in your constitution to be a mass murderer? Have you sought help for your mental affliction Taxpayer Burnski? It sounds like you might have all the necessary prerequisites to become a mass killer.

you should see a professional. I can probably find a couple of good referrals for you in Saskatoon, even from here in the GTA. I've been there many times and know a few folks. I also bet that I get hit up for coin more often than you do when in Saskatoon because folks see me as a "brother".

speaking of which, how come most of the people begging me for coin in downtown T.O. are Caucasian? send us some Native beggars to keep me company, and I'll send you some Ukrainian beggars to make you feel better.

while I walk around or if I go to my ATM where you bums sleep off your daily hangover. I have a friend who (foolishly) bought a house in "the hood" and he regales me with tales about all the times you cut across his lawn (corner lot) and when he complains, you shout out "dis is our land." My niece has the same problem when you park in her parking stall at her apartment--"dis is our land."

Snore....snore...hunh...wha? Oh...maybe that was their land. you never know. I've pulled up to my house on Lake Temagami to find caucasian people camped on my island. I guess it happens everywhere.

I sometimes travel Saskatchewan calling on my customers and on ocassion cut through a reserve to save myself some time. I've seen the way you treat the free homes you get courtesyof us Euro-Canadians.

Hey, take it up with your Saskatchewan buddies. I live in Ontario and I don't see that, especially at Six Nations. You should see the race track there!

I doubt you would trash these homes if you had actually had to make mortgage payments like the rest of us Euro-Canadians.

I don't trash homes. My brother builds homes. You make no sense.

For a much different perspective on Natives, check out the center-right Dustmybroom.com blog. It is run by 3 Natives and they offer a far different take on Natives, their culture of greed/lazyiness, and the Big Pimps who annually take billions from Euro-Canadians with little or no accountability.

I do know the site, and I agree with much of what is on there, which is why I'm having a hard time wondering why you are accusing me of everything under the sun. I pay tax. I look out for my own. I've defended this country.

My question is, for such a big talker, what have you done for this country?

They are ashamed of you and pine for the days when Natives were productive instead of putting their women on the streets to whore money.

Good analysis. So...you believe Native women are whores? Is that what you are infering Taxpayer Burnski? My mother, sister, wife, sisters in law are all whores, eh?

Well, I guess that is better than Ukrainian men who like to rape young children. Too bad they couldn't just stay on the farm and go about their business, but instead, they drive around Saskatchewan looking for young Aboriginal kids to rape.

The best part is that they get off because they just tell the judge that the child was a whore anyway, eh?

Look at the terrorists at Calendoia (sp?).

I know...throwing things at the Native people, starting fights with the poor Natives, but worst of all, now we find out that they shot a Native protestor with a pellet gun, cutting the Native man's face! Absolutely unbelievable, and the worst part is that they won't be caught and no investigation is underway.

.....and this is Canada?

If they are exempt from Canadian law because they are a sovereign country, then it just goes to show how cowardly Dalton McGuinty (L) is. If they are a sovereign country destroying Canadian property, burning cars, burning bridges, stealing equipment and supplies from Euro-Canadian contractors, then Dalton should have sent in the cops to kick the shit out of these terrorists. They claim that they are a sovereign country. They have attacked Canada so they should be crushed by Canadian cops or military.

Yep...darn tootin' pardner! Git out the ol' shotgun an show them Injuns a thing or two.

Get a frickin' job and become a productive member of society. I am sick and tired of supporting you and having you steal my bike off my condo balcony and sick and tired of you bums threatening me downtown unless I give you money.

Hahahahahahahaha....ahaahahaahaha Now that is funny!

One of these days someone is going to get hurt and I guaran-damn-tee you that it will not be me.

hoo-ah Taxpayer Burnski! You go get'em lad!

But don't show your face here or you might get a good whupping and have some proper manners handed to you. It would be my unarmed pleasure. In fact, I'll even let folks know when I'm next in Saskatoon on business so we can discuss this matter in greater detail.

You've been warned.

Et tu brute

[Rue]

Actually reading back this line of posts and its quite something Tem, I think Betsy has been bang on with her comments and if I was giving points in a formal debate setting would say she left you in her dust paragraphs ago but hey that is just me...but I have failed to detect anything in her renditions that would indicate she is defficient in Canadian history. In fact I think she has proved what I have long suspected, that women are in fact more intelligent then men. And no I am not female just candid!

Seriously Tem where have you gone with this. You start off with a premise that necessarily calls on non natives to make comments that could be perceived as not understanding native culture if they don't agree with your version of it.

We can all concede that native peoples in this country suffered from discrimination and injustice and still do.

We can all concede that the high ration of natives in prison flows from socio-economic problems inter-related to alcohol and substance abuse and petty crimes flowing from the continuing inability for mainstream society and native socities to coexist peacefully and with mutual tolerance.

We can all concede that in every society, in every culture, political state, etc., where man has been involved, there has been injustice, and humans have killed other humans en masse as a result of political/religious views.

We can all concede that some mass murderers are serial killers but their are those who murder en masse due to political and religious reasons using the state and/or the police or military or organized units of humans to do the killing and those serial killers who do not represent the state when they kill.

The point is serial killers in the strictest forensic sense do so because of socio-pathic personality defects. They enjoy the power that comes from torturing and killing. It provides them sexual gratification.

Now a guy like Joseph Stalin is an interesting example. He is an example of someone who was a socio-path who used politics and the state to conduct mass murders and in fact he was both as history tells us he actually stalked and raped and tortured some of his victims not for political reasons but for sexual reasons.

Likewise it appears Saddam Hussein engaged in rape and killing the people he had sex with and inter-mixed that with his mass killings.

So yes some mass murdering politicians are serial killers but confusing the two concepts only serves to fuel reverse racism and suggest that the oppressor is somehow inferior to the victim.

The fact is serial killers come in all religions, colours, sizes, sexual preference and gender although most are men.

The fact is the classic serial killer has no political views and is not doing what he does

as an agent of the state but as an individual. That is the differentation I would use. Does the murderer do so as an agent of the state or as a civilian. Does he do so to promote an overt, expressed political agenda he wants to impose on everyone and all of society, or is he simply acting out sexual perversion.

To engage in an intelligent discussion as to the treatment of native Canadians yes we can get into the horrible treatment natives received by Christian missionaries who tried to forcefully convert them. We can get into the horrible history of the countless number of natives sexually molested by religious folks in these orphanages and institutions.

But to discuss it we should distinguish the kinds of sexual predators who took advantage of their religious status or political status to engage in sexual acts against the vulnerable with political policies promulgated by governments.

This is why I go back to the original premise and say if you want you can portray all caucasians as the enemy and suggest they come from a more violent society then natives. Isn't that the logical conclusion to all this?

To me that makes no sense. It makes no more sense then saying natives were savages before Europeans came to North America and changed everything because they enggaged in inter-nation wars.

For me, if anybody should be stereo-typing why not Betsy. Why should she not dismiss the whole thing as being the fault of we men and our testosterone anr argue that all this injustice and serial killings and mass murders have one thing in common, they are usually committed by some guy with an obsession over the size of his pee pee.

[Temagami Scourge]

Rue:

Betsy is intelligent, but I don't fully agree with your assessment, nor do I think you fully comprehended what I was saying.

What does truly astound me is that Mongomery Burns just had a post go up that says that he will kill Natives under the right circumstances and that Native women are all whores.

...and you put up a post lecturing me.

That, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with Canadian society. White people killing Native folks somehow gets this "Oh boys will be boys" attitude...and I have over 500 dead Native women to back that point up, but when Native folks stand up for themselves, they are considered "terrorists" that are"living in the past" and should have the army used on them like in Haditha.

Rue, I've always had respect for you until this moment. I, nor any other self-identified native, have never said on any thread that we promote the killing of Caucasian people, or have cast aspersions on white women or children, and yet you can calmly blow by what Monty said because "I" have the problem.

You severely disappoint me.

[betsy]

...and all I'm trying to say Betsy is that you really have no knowledge of Canadian history, just judging from your comments.

You should listen to me more often. I'm quite the student of Canadian history. American too. Unlike many others here, I don't get my understanding of history from watching old John Wayne movies.

However the past had played, the outcome is still the same: there is a problem.

It is true that my knowledge about the natives mostly being on welfare came from various people. Various people who don't know each other. And they say of the same things.

Speaking of the same things, the description of Montgomery about the trashing of houses was also described to me by someone who used to work at a weather station and had access to a reserve. He said that it is common for the natives (in their drunken moments) to use their furnitures for firewood, and then the walls, etc.., This same person also said that once he was a guest in a house in the reserve where an elderly native woman lived. The house was neat and tidy, except that he noticed a pile of firewood stacked up in a corner in the living room. He asked the woman out of curiousity why she keeps her firewood indoors...to which she replied that if she kept them outside they will be stolen.

Why do people give practically similar accounts?

One of the sources of my information was the native woman activist I referred above.

I do understand that not all natives are the same. But apparently the numbers are high.

[Renegade]

The level of immaturity displayed in parts of this thread is stunning. Must you guys really stoop so low as to not just calling each other names, but resort to threats as well?

This thread has gone completly off its original topic and in my opinion has no additional value.

[Temagami Scourge]

The level of immaturity displayed in parts of this thread is stunning. Must you guys really stoop so low as to not just calling each other names, but resort to threats as well?

This thread has gone completly off it's original topic and in my opinion has no additional value.

I usually take offense when someone infers that my mother, sister, wife, cousins and every Native woman I know is a whore.

Should I smile and wave Renegade?

[Renegade]

The level of immaturity displayed in parts of this thread is stunning. Must you guys really stoop so low as to not just calling each other names, but resort to threats as well?

This thread has gone completly off it's original topic and in my opinion has no additional value.

I usually take offense when someone infers that my mother, sister, wife, cousins and every Native woman I know is a whore.

Should I smile and wave Renegade?

TS, you are right to take offense. I myself am offended. The right course of action is to report the post, not respond in kind.

[Rue]

Rue:

Betsy is intelligent, but I don't fully agree with your assessment, nor do I think you fully comprehended what I was saying.

What does truly astound me is that Mongomery Burns just had a post go up that says that he will kill Natives under the right circumstances and that Native women are all whores.

...and you put up a post lecturing me.

That, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with Canadian society. White people killing Native folks somehow gets this "Oh boys will be boys" attitude...and I have over 500 dead Native women to back that point up, but when Native folks stand up for themselves, they are considered "terrorists" that are"living in the past" and should have the army used on them like in Haditha.

Rue, I've always had respect for you until this moment. I, nor any other self-identified native, have never said on any thread that we promote the killing of Caucasian people, or have cast aspersions on white women or children, and yet you can calmly blow by what Monty said because "I" have the problem.

You severely disappoint me.

O.k.

1-my comments about Besty were meant tongue in cheek to bring some levity

2-at no time do I agree with what Monty said

3-I am not lecturing you, I am discussing the issues in a general manner merely stating my opinions

4-all I am getting at is if you pose your premise linking serial killers to the treatment of natives, you necessarily set yourself up for these kinds of responses-if you look back at my original posts to you, I was worried this would happen

5-I think your dialogue is well intentioned I just think by linking the issue of the treatment of native peoples to serial killers muddles issues and gives fodder to going off on a tangent

6-I respect very much what you are trying to say

7-hey its o.k. my parents were very disappointed in me too! LOL

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

Monty's post is exactly the type of racism and hate that the online crime division of the RCMP deals with - uttering threats like that is just so overwhelmingly wrong.

AND i was surprised by the lack of comment directed Monty's way to directly criticise his post

Do you condone what he said?

The addtional value would be to stand up and say that anyone speaking in that vile a manner does not deserve to post here. Everyone speaks of lawbreakers form the recalamaition site - but they have people entering camp to cause mischief. One such incident ended up with man being shot in the face with a pellet gun. And next to no media coverage about it

Is that ok because the victim was Native?

What monty said is clearly aginst the law, and so far i dont see many people speaking out against that!

[newbie]

T, as long as you remain in the victim mode, noone or nothing is likely to get through to you. I answered your question about equality and you get on this kick about "all natives want is the land." So in your view, all immigration is illegal. And you wonder why some people have a prejudice against native people. I'll state it again. Give every native a quarter section and be done with it. No more treaties, no more handouts. That's what the homesteaders got and most did very well with that. Try and bring your views up to the 21st Century. And for the record, Monty's views were, while racist, in keeping with the feelings of a lot of people. Right or wrong, that's the reality.

[Argus]

Monty's post is exactly the type of racism and hate that the online crime division of the RCMP deals with - uttering threats like that is just so overwhelmingly wrong.

AND i was surprised by the lack of comment directed Monty's way to directly criticise his post

Why should there be? This was exactly what Scourge has been begging for, fishing for, trolling for. It is the inevitable result of starting a racebaiting thread.

[Temagami Scourge]

T, as long as you remain in the victim mode, noone or nothing is likely to get through to you. I answered your question about equality and you get on this kick about "all natives want is the land." So in your view, all immigration is illegal. And you wonder why some people have a prejudice against native people. I'll state it again. Give every native a quarter section and be done with it. No more treaties, no more handouts. That's what the homesteaders got and most did very well with that. Try and bring your views up to the 21st Century. And for the record, Monty's views were, while racist, in keeping with the feelings of a lot of people. Right or wrong, that's the reality.

victim mode? Ok...if it's one set of posters saying I'm in attack mode and the other is saying I'm in victim mode...what gives?

Personally Newbie, I gave you concise answers with some tongue-in-cheek rolled in. It appears that you haven't a clue as to what constitutes a legal agreement and exchange, but I'll try to spell it out for you.

Please read slowly...

In my best "victim" voice, i'll write it as clear as I can be: The Crown and the Natives signed agreements called treaties where the land (aka Canada) was signed away in exchange for certain rights and benefits (housing, medical and education, tax exemption and a plot of land called a reserve). I would gladly give up the rights and benefits in exchange for the land. That was the deal, was it not?

You, however, are trying to tell me that I should give up the rights and benefits for....what? Nothing. You are trying to tell me that we are "equal" when I no longer have treaty rights or benefits, and yet you and the government still get to keep the land we exchanged in the first place!?

Forgive me newbie, but here is where I switch from "Victim" mode to "are you F*cking crazy" mode.

Are you f*cking crazy? Why on God's green earth would I give up what my ancestor's exchanged the land

for? To make you feel better? Give me a break. Nothing in this world is for free...do you get that? Nothing.

If that is too hard for you to understand, then try this analogy: Canada was my house and I sold it to you. you agreed to pay a certain mortgage made up of a number of rights and benefits, and I get the basement. you agreed to pay in perpetuity.

Comprende?

[Temagami Scourge]

Monty's post is exactly the type of racism and hate that the online crime division of the RCMP deals with - uttering threats like that is just so overwhelmingly wrong.

AND i was surprised by the lack of comment directed Monty's way to directly criticise his post

Why should there be? This was exactly what Scourge has been begging for, fishing for, trolling for. It is the inevitable result of starting a racebaiting thread.

Uhoh...sounds like someone's jealous.....

[Temagami Scourge]

Renegade:

TS, you are right to take offense. I myself am offended. The right course of action is to report the post, not respond in kind.

Personally, I don't want people fighting my battles, and I believe that running to the moderator is a sure sign that a person cannot look after their own. Secondly, going to the moderator is only an adult way of tattletaling.

I prefer to handle things by myself, but everytime I step up to the plate, people run to the moderator on me.

I also respond in kind because posts like that are not removed. When they are not removed, then others who come here later will assume that what is said is OK, and that is not the case.

Thank you for your indulgence, though. I already asked the moderator to lock the thread two days ago as I knew it was going where it currently is, so I'm left to wait and rebut until that time.

[Argus]

If that is too hard for you to understand, then try this analogy: Canada was my house and I sold it to you. you agreed to pay a certain mortgage made up of a number of rights and benefits, and I get the basement. you agreed to pay in perpetuity.

Comprende?

Except it wasn't your house. It didn't belong to you. You lived on tiny pieces of it. The vast land holdings was a European concept to begin with.

Besides, half the time you stole what you had from some other tribe, and killed them all so they couldn't complain afterwards.

[Temagami Scourge]

If that is too hard for you to understand, then try this analogy: Canada was my house and I sold it to you. you agreed to pay a certain mortgage made up of a number of rights and benefits, and I get the basement. you agreed to pay in perpetuity.

Comprende?

Except it wasn't your house. It didn't belong to you. You lived on tiny pieces of it. The vast land holdings was a European concept to begin with.

Besides, half the time you stole what you had from some other tribe, and killed them all so they couldn't complain afterwards.

When I start an "Idiot Savant" thread, I'll know who to invite.

[Temagami Scourge]

Argus:

Except it wasn't your house. It didn't belong to you. You lived on tiny pieces of it. The vast land holdings was a European concept to begin with.

Besides, half the time you stole what you had from some other tribe, and killed them all so they couldn't complain afterwards.

please, can you prove that Natives didn't own the land before Europeans stepped foot here? and don't link us to one of those Klan websites that talks about conspiracies and stuff....just actual fact, with maps to show the little pieces.

After that, you can tell us what Jesus had at the Last Supper.

[newbie]

Actually T, you'd get much further if you calm down a bit. You haven't won the argument; you've only shown your true colours with your bigotry and sarcasm. You will have no further response from me.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

Argus - Temagami has never advocated violence against anyone, or threatened anybody

And I dont think the intention of this thread was to bring about posts like that. Up until that post there was some interesting arguments to read. The Criminal Code of Canada is quite clear on the subject of racism/hate/stereotyping, and so are the rules that moderate this board.

I dont think " race-baiting " applies - Temagami made one statement that almost all the serial killers and mass murderers in Canada were caucasian. If you have supporting facts to the contrary id like to read them.

Im sorry you feel personally antagonised by the topic, if you dont have anything constructive to bring forth you can always sit back quietly and read the posts like Ive been doing.