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A serious discussion on racial profiling respecting mass murder and se


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Heavens to Besty. How we mix the topic of serial killers with the history of mistreatment of the aboriginal peoples of North America I do not uunderstand. My point was that "normal" people and people who believed they were religious and in touch with God and good civilized people slaughtered aboriginals and broke treaties with them, not mass murderers or serial killers in the sense of how we refer to them today. It was ordinary folk like you and me...the same ordinary folk that went to work and carried on with their lives as 6 million Jews were sent to their deaths. The same ordinary folks who sit by as genocide is committed in Darfur, Cambodia. Rwanda, Burdundi, etc. That was my pt. and I believe Betsy picked up on it. I certainly did not mean by the way to infer it was because of their Christian religion. Christians do not have a monopoly on feeling they are superior to others and killing them.

If you care to look at forensic psychiatric studies you will see that serial killers are

persons with a pathological disease and a cluster of personality disorder features.

Studies are beginning to indicate that there is a genetic profile predisposing certain serial killers to being twisted killers. Others develop that way from circumstances and events in their lives and others are a mix.

Serial killers, killers who stalk and then usually torture and/or mutilate or commit violence usually of a sexual nature on people come in all colours, races, religions. What makes them a serial killer is not their race, but their inherited defective genes and life events.

There have been behavioural psychologists who have tried to infer that certain races are less intelligent then others are more prone to crime or promiscuity but each and every one of these studies has been revisited and contradicted for its inaccuracies. The fact is there just is not evidence that empirically proves if you are white or black you are more prone to being a serial killer.

I suppose you could make an arguement if you wanted, that aboriginal peoples have a high rate of alcoholism because they may inherit the same gene from their Mongolian ancestors that does not break down certain enzymes in alcohol very well...lust like you could argue blacks seem to have higher rates of high blood pressure then whites and seem to suffer from sickle cell anemia while whites don't just like Ashkanazi Jews seem to be prone to Tay Sachs disease, or caucasian children from Scandinavia seem to have higher rates of a particular kind of child arthritis.

Yes medicine can and does research in understanding how genetics and race may come into play but correct me if I am wrong, when it is done in this manner, its not to negate anyone's race or suggest it makes them inferior, its done to help better treat a disease.

Forensic profiling will identify race as a characteristic to help make it easier to catch someone but its not done for political reasons. Forensic psychiatrists don't make moral judgements when they estimate whether the person is white or black.

It also stands to reason that certain races do stick out in crime statistics. Only a fool would deny that aboriginals are jailed more then any other group in North America. But then if one looks at the fact that they are the only ethnic group with the reservation phenomena and the particular treatments they have been afforded there is cause and effect. Yes they have high rates of alcoholism but it is inter-related to the socio-economic conditions that set off the behaviour in the first place.

Interestingly Orthodox Jews have low rates of alcoholism. Some say it is because their religion uses alcohol (wine) as part of the prayers so alcohol from a cultural perspective is not seen as a recreational agent. So you can speculate maybe one's cultural or religious upbringing may have something to do with it.

But here is the point. Rich people, poor people, men, women, gays, straights, people of all ages can be alcoholic.

Likewise the propensity to be a murderer is in all of us.

We all under the right circumstances can and will kill. Surely you remember the psychological studies conducted in the 60's where a person was placed in a room.

Next door a student was given a buzzer and told to keep increasing the voltage. The person in the other room would increase their screaming....yet the person on the other end would keep running up the dial even though they knew what they were doing could be fatal. The study proved it is very easy to convince someone to kill another.

How about organized religions? How many mass murders have come about because people were incited to feel non believers were evil and deserved to die? How many Jews died as a result of Christians viewing the Passion Play. How many non Muslims or Muslims from a different sect have been killed by Muslim fundamentalists? How many people have been killed by organized groups because of politics, religion, etc.

Name me a society that is NOT inherently racist...Jews and Christians...one only need read the Bible to say how intolerant they were....not that they had or have amonopoly on religious or tribal warfare.

As for aboriginals, if you do take the time to learn from them they don't hide

the wars between their nations or the problems between their nations of people. They have never claimed to be perfect before Europeans came but I think the point is they would look at all cultures other then there own that came after them and wonder- why did so much death come with these waves of people from many religions and cultures.

So to me you can specifically focus in on the mistreatment of aboriginals or perhaps if you want certain sects of Christians or Jews or women or gays or what-ever group it is you want to select but to me I personally believe other then the name of the group you are studying....I think you will see the same patterns of hatred emerge and the hatred that escalates enough to allow mass murders comes about from mostly sane people who think what they are doing is right.

Most mass murderers are politicians, generals and citizens like you and me who do not want to give up a certain lifestyle so if it means sending troops in to secure oil supplies so be it.

I started off unhappy with the original premisis because when I myself study serial killers I see humans, not whites. When I see mass murder I see it done by humans not Christians or Muslims or what-ever.

The name changes but the pith and substance of the behaviour remains the same and that is because when you think about it, we all bleed the same colour.

I come to you to hell.

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Like many people here, I firmly believe that racial profiling is required in a number of cases. Specifically in instances of mass murder and serial killing.

Although only 87% of Canada's population is of Euro-Canadian extraction, they make up 100% of Canada's serial killers and mass murderers.

You are mistaken. In point of fact, the majority of mass murderers are natives.

Prisons, in areas with high native populations, have hugely disproportionate numbers of aborigines there for violence, most often commited because of the massive drug and alcohol abuse among natives.

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

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I'd hardly say that white people are a crime problem though, considering much of our prision space is filled with Indian criminals, and they are a very very small percentage of the population.

Temagami Scourge backed up his argument - Why dont you do the same?

In what way did TS back up anything he said? What statistics were presented? What evidence? What citations?

and try to do a whole post with out your regular poke at Native people. You said to me in an earlier post that you do not make racist or derogatory statements that are unilateral in nature towards any group without some sort of proof - but you just did

Are you saying it's racist to suggest certain racial groups are more prone to crime than others without evidence? Does that not mean the person who created this thread is a racist?

As for natives in prisons, this is so well known and documented I wonder why you even ask. Natives are vastly overrepresented in our prisons due to persistent problems with drug and alcohol abuse.

I apologise to Temagami because like the racist comments, this post has little or nothing to do with this NEW topic.

On the contrary the purpose behind this thread is so Temagami can make racist allegations. Why shouldn't everyone jump in?

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

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betsy: Yes, I understand that most serial killers usually kill their own race, but there appear to be many exceptions to that rule, especially in the Pickton case and the John Crawford's killings of Aboriginal women in Saskatchewan.

It just happens that prostitutes are the easiest women to abduct and kill and the majority of prostitutes in that area are native women.

Perhaps this is related to the propensity of native men to beat their women, as evidenced by the quote on native domestic violence posted earlier.

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

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Studies and research we've seen are for the US (and Canada). If we have access to information from other parts of the globe, it is possible that we'll find evidence that this phenomenom is not confined to just one particular group. Besides, only the most horrific , the most body-count and sensational cases are usually highlighted. Therefore, how can we conclude your statement as fact if all areas have not been covered?

Betsy: For some reason, serial killing and mass murder has proven to be confined to caucasians here in Canada.

It has? By whom? In what publication or study? Or did you do one yourself, in crayon?

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

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Scourge,

If your actually being serious and not just making some political racially based statement, I can see a bit of truth in what your saying. Most mass murders are white, but considering most of the population is white, I'm not suprised.

Geoff; our Caucasian population is 87% of our total pop, and yet the serial killers and murderers are near 100% Caucasian. To me, this isn't simply a "most of", but a serious social problem

Odd you should think so. When actual citations were posted in another thread which showed that Jamaicans, who make up a miniscule percentage of the population, were responsible for up to 80% of gang violence you went ballistic, dismissed such statements as racist, and talked glowingly of having known a Jamaican once. Then, having destroyed that thread, you came here, still fuming, and started a silly thread about white people being dangerous because, you say, having read a newspaper once, there appear to be more white serial killers in Canada than there should be - though you don't actually have any kind of evidence to support that suggestion.

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

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Heavens to Besty. How we mix the topic of serial killers with the history of mistreatment of the aboriginal peoples of North America I do not uunderstand. My point was that "normal" people and people who believed they were religious and in touch with God and good civilized people slaughtered aboriginals and broke treaties with them, not mass murderers or serial killers in the sense of how we refer to them today.

If you'd read my response again, you'd see that my point is actually the same as yours as posted above...except that I stressed that "good christians who think they are christians...etc..." for in truth, those heinous acts are not that of true Christians who believe and follow the teachings of Christ.

And if reports are true that some chieftains do line their own pockets instead of spending the money the way they should...then that is not only a mistreatment....but a terrible betrayal of their own people as well.

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I also think it would be more productive if the original post rather than engage in passive aggressive hatred towards European and whites, really raised an issue dealing with the perceived discriminatory treatment against aboriginals in this country. Probably be a lot more productive then this fake b.s. discussion about serial killers.

I hope you don't assume I'm passive-agressive? I'm pretty much all aggressive, and this is not fake B.S. about serial killers.

No, it is genuine B.S.

This is a candid discussion that I intend to do my best to prevent from degrading into some racist drivel,

Too late. That started with the very first post, from the racist who begun this thread.

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

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Machination:
You are really quite a piece of work. You're right - aboriginal Canadians never murder anyone.

No, many murders take place in the Aboriginal community. I've had to live through the unfortunate experience of having relations who were either murder victims or murderers...but again, this thread is looking at serial killing and mass murder, which have non-existent Aboriginal representation in Canada, to date.

If you want to discuss Aboriginal murders, start a separate thread. It might dovetail with this one if Pickton is being discussed.

Also, there has never been an asian or african serial killer, right?

The focus of this thread is on Canada. Serial killing and mass murder take place all over the world, but here in canada, we have our own unique issues separate from the U.S., Britain etc.

You're not interested in debate. You're a petty racist who likes to anger people by spewing antagonistic nonsense[/b].

Actually, I am interested in debate, and I'm not a petty racist. I also take exception to you viewing me this way, but I realize that your perceptions are your problem, not mine. I'm sorry you feel this way, but if you don't want to participate, then feel free not to do so. other than that, there is some genuine and interesting discussion taking place.

See how easy it is to refute your sophomoric points? This is what school is for, schmuck - if only you had attended.

You've not made one point about Canada. To reiterate, the focus of this thread is about canada's issues with serial murder and mass killings, not any other country's. If you want to participate, please stay to topic, or go create your own "non-Canadian serial killers and mass murderers discussion" thread.

Disclaimer: I do not agree with racial profiling, in any form. I am sick of your style of argument - it is hysterical (that is, marked by excessive or uncontrollable emotion)

Apart from the inchoate babble at the end of the quoted sentence, I would like to know more of your thoughts on racial profiling and why you disagree with the idea. I was under the impression that many people on this site were supportive of the idea of racial profiling...especially after participating in the Gwyn Morgan discussion.

Could you please describe for me this unique system that categorizes serial killers by their country of origin?

Oh, right..we dont do that. Are you saying that serial killers in Canada are motivated by or derived from forces that are not present in the rest of the world? Nonsense. How about this, since you require clarification on every single point:

Serial killers are not the only objectifiers - people who treat other people as objects. To some extent, leaders of all sorts - political, military, or corporate - do the same. In a range of professions - surgeons, medical doctors, judges, law enforcement agents - objectification is an efficient defense mechanism which fends off horror and anxiety.

Yet, serial killers are different. They represent a dual failure - of their own development as full-fledged, productive individuals - and of the culture and society they grow in. In a pathologically narcissistic civilization - social anomies proliferate. Such societies breed malignant objectifiers - people devoid of empathy - also known as "narcissists".

Now, is there something about Canadians that make us more likely to become serial killers? Probably not. Is it more likely one may become a narcissist in this materialist, throw-away culture? Yes - but you'll find that the world over. Are you arguing that native culture is inheriently superior to that of the rest of the world? I would argue that were natives more numerous and more empowered, there would be a native serial killer - simply put, the forces that generate such individuals are not at work in native society by virtue of their removal from the typical material focus of society. Were more natives rich and powerful, there would be mass murderers.

As an aside - you might call it 'inchoate' (using dictionary.com, are we?) but you are in fact quite hysterical in your manner of argument. I would suggest to you that your ideas - as opposed to being imperfectly formed - are stillborn.

Your impressions of the other people on this site matter not at all - are you incapable of distinguishing between individuals? You wonder why I accuse you of not listening - it seems you are quick to judge and slow to forgive. I don't know what the Gwyn Morgan discussion was, I only registered to the site recently, and missed it.

Specifically, on racial profiling - because someone of a certain race is more likely to commit a certain type of crime does NOT give the police the right to accost people based on their race - in other words, you need to observe something suspicious. The idea that you can somehow guess the actions of an individual based on the habits of members of their race is ludicrous - people will, and always do, defy expectation.

Not only is it offensive at a moral level, it is odious in that it gives us a false sense of security. Just because people are being arrested and convicted DOES NOT mean they are guilty. It's institutional racism and I believe, a substitute for doing real investigative work.

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Heavens to Besty. How we mix the topic of serial killers with the history of mistreatment of the aboriginal peoples of North America I do not uunderstand. My point was that "normal" people and people who believed they were religious and in touch with God and good civilized people slaughtered aboriginals and broke treaties with them, not mass murderers or serial killers in the sense of how we refer to them today.

If you'd read my response again, you'd see that my point is actually the same as yours as posted above...except that I stressed that "good christians who think they are christians...etc..." for in truth, those heinous acts are not that of true Christians who believe and follow the teachings of Christ.

And if reports are true that some chieftains do line their own pockets instead of spending the money the way they should...then that is not only a mistreatment....but a terrible betrayal of their own people as well.

Yoh Betsy I agree with you. My comments were not directed at you! but at the original premise which has of course brought on some statements that can only lead to racial misunderstandings...I just like that expression Heavens to Besty. I 100% am with you on this! No worries!

By the way the person whor eported 80% of gang related crimes are by Jamaicans, this is exactly the kind of response that comes from such a premise. (am I spelling it right) What this person quoting the stats doesn't consider is that what he calls a "Jamaican" is in fact a human being who probably is a Canadian citizen and more to the point that gang violence did not start nor will it end with Jamaicans...that every ethnic group in this country has had its share of gangs and will have its share of gangs. There is a direct corelation between gangs and generations of ethnic groups that find themselves unemployed and not assimilating into the mainstream cutlure.

In the case of these so called Jamaicans, of course the person maintaining the 80% statistics would be the first to be unable to give me the percentage to what racial and ethnic groups dominate white collar corporate crime and which group's crimes cost society more money in the long run.

And no I am not Jamaican or black...but I am a human who bleeds red like everyone else.

I come to you to hell.

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Betsy:

Look, as you've said the US had already long profiled serial killers. With all the advanced technology and available resources to them, you'd think that they'd already come upon a solution or a way to stop anyone or at least prevent any of these killings.

Just about anything could set off or trigger a serial or mass murderer. It could just be the way somebody looked at him the "wrong way". Who knows what goes on in the mind of a person at a particular time. Stress...getting fired...splitting up with a partner. Remember the killer in the bus transpo maintenance who was apparently teased often by his co-workers?

But since we're trying to come up with ideas to help our brothers and sisters...here's my contribution. Perhaps we should consult Dionne Warwick? :D

You bring up an excellent point. bullying. I hadn't considered that aspect, but it does make sense when compared to learned behaviour. bullies are often both the victim and the agressor, and this contrary set of circumstances might provide the mental stimulus to go off the deep end. Can you expand on this a bit?

What bullying to some...may just be harmless kidding around. As I said, who knows what goes on in the minds of people at some given time (taking into consideration a lot of other factors involved...in other words, a typical "bad day" when everything seem to go wrong can just be the perfect trigger for someone who cannot handle the situation.) It could also be due to the mental imbalance, some may have perceived slight where actually none was intended. Perhaps, someone "carrying a chip on his shoulder" is a perfect symptom of someone who may be unable to face and deal with everyday life...and this could either trigger a mass murder....or for some, suicide.

Take for example suicide among the young people in the reserves or Indian communities. If I understand it correctly, you've got major problems with your youth. The high percentage in one population and environment compared to the rest of the country is indeed alarming. I bet factors that trigger mass murder could also trigger suicide.

What is interesting about suicide on reserves is that it appears to be the heaviest on reserves that are openly Christian. Reserves that have a growing population of "traditional" people practising their original religion are not impacted anywhere near the same extent. The sad irony is that those reserves who are the impacted the worst and seek help are also the ones that demand that no"devil worshippers" ie traditional people, fly in to assist.

Although the Christian factor seems to be a link, there haven't been any studies following this possibliity (yet) beccause of opposition from the churches, I understand.

Still, just like those people who are trying to find the answer to suicide, alcohol abuse, incarceration and other social ailments, the need is to identify these social ills and act on it. Burying our head in the sand, even about serial killing and mass murder in Canada, is doing a disservice to our selves and our communities.

One of the things that we could discuss differently to avoid confusion is speaking about serial killing and mass murder in different streams. Serial killing has a planning aspect not shared by mass murders, which involves planning to the extent of what the weapon(s) of choice are, and a general idea of who the target will be ie. bus employees, postal employees, minorities or women.

There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people.

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Temagami,

Do you by any chance have any information at all about the mass murderers and serial killers in Canada?

yes I do. I'll have to go get the disk and i'll try to put out info on monday, or maybe Tuesday. Although, i must admit that I'm surprised that you can't find info on the net. I've found a wealth of info there, and quite often you need to use American resources to find Canadian material.

That might help in your searches.

There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people.

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Argus:

Please. I've dealt with your kind on many other forums. I have no trouble putting you in your place. However, given the rules of this forum I've been warned previously by the moderator for responding in kind to people who have little interest in anything other than insults and attitude. That's why I report such things now. If the moderator says race baiting is okay with him then I'll respond appropriately to you too.

I suggest you heed the moderator's warnings. He has provided you with excellent advice on how to overcome your proclivity for pointless chatter.

However, I do find this sentence deeply disturbing: "I've dealt with your kind on many other forums. I have no trouble putting you in your place." Do you have a problem with Aboriginal people using forums? I would never say this to anyone regardless of their background.

As I've said, if you want to bring race into the equation on a negative note, then we certainly don't have room for you here.

any more of these kinds of statements and I'll have to report you to the administrator.

There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people.

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Heavens to Besty...... ..... but the pith and substance of the behaviour remains the same and that is because when you think about it, we all bleed the same colour.

Rue, the above post was truly, truly , one of the most eloquent and thoughtful posts I've seen here, period.

I also agree with your perspect that profiling and stereotyping are more damaging than worthwhile.

Its going to take some time to digest all you've written, and I wouldn't want to be insulting to try to make a quick comment on such thoughtful commentary.

T.S.

There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people.

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By the way the person whor eported 80% of gang related crimes are by Jamaicans, this is exactly the kind of response that comes from such a premise. (am I spelling it right) What this person quoting the stats doesn't consider is that what he calls a "Jamaican" is in fact a human being who probably is a Canadian citizen and more to the point that gang violence did not start nor will it end with Jamaicans...that every ethnic group in this country has had its share of gangs and will have its share of gangs. There is a direct corelation between gangs and generations of ethnic groups that find themselves unemployed and not assimilating into the mainstream cutlure.

In the case of these so called Jamaicans, of course the person maintaining the 80% statistics would be the first to be unable to give me the percentage to what racial and ethnic groups dominate white collar corporate crime and which group's crimes cost society more money in the long run.

And no I am not Jamaican or black...but I am a human who bleeds red like everyone else.

Bratton asked: “Tell me, the gang violence that you are experiencing, what is the racial or ethnic background of the gangs?”

Frum replied: “That's a refreshingly blunt question. Some say it may be as high as 80 per cent Jamaican. But no one knows for sure, because people here don't like to talk about that.”

Chief Bratton’s blunt response: “You need to talk about it. It's all part of the issue. If it's Jamaican gangs that are committing the crimes, well then, go after the Jamaican gangs. And don't be afraid to go after them because they're black. That's the last thing you need to be concerned with.” Macleans magazine

Writing in the National Post (Octrober 27, 2005), Bruce Garvey decried Jamaica’s “born fi dead’ culture being imported to the streets of Toronto – another vile result of poorly screened immigration and multiculturalism polices that encourage immigrants to hang on to their culture, no matter how dysfunctional of destructive. Writing of Toronto’s wave of gang shootings, Garvey noted: “Almost all of the victims and perpetrators are young black men, … It is widely – if quietly – acknowledged that a disproportionate number of the criminals and victims hail from Jamaica.

John Macfarlane, editor of Toronto Life (February, 2006) observes: “Nobody wants to talk about it, but the increase in gun-related homicides in Toronto has a cultural component: many of the young men involved – shooters and victims alike – are of Caribbean descent and many are from fatherless homes. As the Globe and Mail observed recently,” Tewo in three Jamaican-Canadian children … are being raised by a single parent

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

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What is interesting about suicide on reserves is that it appears to be the heaviest on reserves that are openly Christian. Reserves that have a growing population of "traditional" people practising their original religion are not impacted anywhere near the same extent. The sad irony is that those reserves who are the impacted the worst and seek help are also the ones that demand that no"devil worshippers" ie traditional people, fly in to assist.

Although the Christian factor seems to be a link, there haven't been any studies following this possibliity (yet) beccause of opposition from the churches, I understand.

Can you provide a credible link that will back up your statement please. Strange that I've never read anything that even hinted anything to do with religion regarding suicides.

I say "strange", because you'd think that the media will jump on this very juicy theory and have a field day bashing Christianity (which they have been doing for any opportunity they get).

I don't think any opposition from the churches will stop anyone...especially the Liberals and the NDP...from doing any studies. On the contrary, any opposition from the churches is a sure-fire way to get the Liberals to proceed right on ahead.

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Still, just like those people who are trying to find the answer to suicide, alcohol abuse, incarceration and other social ailments, the need is to identify these social ills and act on it. Burying our head in the sand, even about serial killing and mass murder in Canada, is doing a disservice to our selves and our communities.

Can you please explain about "incarceration?" You got me confused here.

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I say "strange", because you'd think that the media will jump on this very juicy theory and have a field day bashing Christianity (which they have been doing for any opportunity they get).

Can you back up that statement?

"I think it's fun watching the waldick get all excited/knickers in a knot over something." -scribblet
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One of the things that we could discuss differently to avoid confusion is speaking about serial killing and mass murder in different streams. Serial killing has a planning aspect not shared by mass murders, which involves planning to the extent of what the weapon(s) of choice are, and a general idea of who the target will be ie. bus employees, postal employees, minorities or women.

Here is another interesting excerpt/link about the subject.

"But the differences between these two types of offenders far outweigh the similarities. First, mass murderers are generally apprehended or killed by police, commit suicide, or turn themselves in to authorities. Serial killers, by contrast, usually make special efforts to elude detection.

When we discover that people exist who are not considered to be insane or crazy but who enjoy killing others for "recreation," this indeed gives new meaning to the word "stranger." Although the mass murderer is viewed as a deranged soul, a product of a stressful environment who is just going to "explode" now and then (but of course somewhere else), the serial murder is seen as much more sinister and is more capable of producing fear.

the mass murderer kills groups of people at once, whereas the serial killer individualizes his or her murders. The serial killer continues to hurt and murder victims, whereas the mass murderer makes his or her "final statement" in or about life through the medium of abrupt and final violence. We rarely if ever hear of a mass murderer who has the opportunity to enact a second mass murder or to become a serial killer. Similarly, we rarely if ever hear of a serial killer who also enacts a mass murder."

http://www.serialhomicide.com/serial-killers.htm

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Still, just like those people who are trying to find the answer to suicide, alcohol abuse, incarceration and other social ailments, the need is to identify these social ills and act on it. Burying our head in the sand, even about serial killing and mass murder in Canada, is doing a disservice to our selves and our communities.

Here is something that offer a glimpse on mass murders...

"Mass murder has, in fact, been around longer historically and in more societies than serial murder. Little is known about it, however, since in comparison to serial killers who are usually apprehended, sent to prison, and can be interviewed, the mass murderer usually ends up taking their own life or is killed by police ("suicide by cop"). About the only way to study mass murder is by conducting "psychological autopsies" or speculating about similarities between cases.

Workplace violence has some of the characteristics of mass murder in that the offender is usually seen as some crazy, disgruntled employee ("snapping"; "going postal"). In many cases, the grudge is against the organization or bureaucracy. Psychosis is not the only motivation, as the following rank order of Characteristics of Violent Employees and Employment Domains demonstrates:

Violent Employees: Employment Domains:

1. History of Violence 1. Transportation Hubs

2. Psychosis and/or Projection 2. Tavern/Liquor Stores

3. Romantic Obsession 3. Convenience Stores

4. Chemical Dependence 4. Fast Food Restaurants

5. Depression 5. Government Offices

6. Pathological Blaming 6. Business Offices

7. Impaired Neurology 7. Administrative Offices

8. Elevated Frustration 8. Police Stations

9. Interest in Weapons 9. Postal Stations

10. Personality Disorder 10. Educational Institutions

There's not much that can be done to protect society completely from mass murder. Many of the motivations are unclear, and there's tremendous controversy over what constitutes the proper "warning signs". Prevention as well as police response tactics are areas and issues that deserve greater consideration.

More often than not, mass murderers tend to target particular victims to avenge perceived injustices. There are also, of course, random and indiscriminate patterns. In almost all cases, innocent bystanders get caught in the crossfire. The more random the pattern, the more likely the perceived injustice is small and insignificant. "

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect21.htm

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What is interesting about suicide on reserves is that it appears to be the heaviest on reserves that are openly Christian. Reserves that have a growing population of "traditional" people practising their original religion are not impacted anywhere near the same extent. The sad irony is that those reserves who are the impacted the worst and seek help are also the ones that demand that no"devil worshippers" ie traditional people, fly in to assist.

Although the Christian factor seems to be a link, there haven't been any studies following this possibliity (yet) beccause of opposition from the churches, I understand.

This study never mentioned anything about Christianity in particular. Ironically, it could be that Christianity may even have a role in PREVENTING more suicides for those who've embraced the faith.

"Aggressive assimilation policies like the residential school system are responsible for the insecure family situations found in Native communities today. Residential schools attempted to strip away Aboriginal culture from Aboriginal children. Studies have shown that children who survived the residential schooling system report overwhelming feelings of loss, depression and loneliness, all a result of being taken away from their family and culture.

This accounts for those individuals who attended residential schools, however, a reasonable question to ask at this time would be: How does the suicide problem affect those who did not attend any of the residentials schools? In assessing the suicide problem, researchers must often look at a variety of reasons for the self destructive patterns in Aboriginal populations. In other words, determining the cause of suicide can not always be reduced to a single event in an individual's life, but must be looked at in the context of their own life situation."

http://www.ualberta.ca/~nativest/pim/suicide.html

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Still, just like those people who are trying to find the answer to suicide, alcohol abuse, incarceration and other social ailments, the need is to identify these social ills and act on it. Burying our head in the sand, even about serial killing and mass murder in Canada, is doing a disservice to our selves and our communities.

Mass Murderers are bent on self-destruction, literally....for most of them always end up committing suicide.

The only difference of their act to normal suicides is that they take other lives with them.

I don't think society is burying its head in the sand about serial killings and mass murders, otherwise there wouldn't be any studies on these. It's just simply that there are "ailments" and other social ills that are too complex to enable a researcher to simply conclude on specific factors.

How many serial killers do we have in Canada? I only know of Olson, Hamolka/Bernardo, Pig Farmer and the new one now (killing prostitutes?). The numbers of serial killers we have is nothing to be scared off....compared to other more disturbing AND HORRIFIC occurences.

We do have a lot of Murder-Suicides it seems...especially among families. Practically once a month or more, you hear of a dad blowing away his whole family...or an offspring killing his family etc..,

And by the looks of it, this phenomenom is not confined to any particular race.

When you think you are safe and feeling secured in your own home, within the bosom of your loved ones, the ones you would trust more than anyone else in this world....only to meet a violent death at their hands. Now, THAT, is scary.

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Temagami, I have scratched the surface of youth suicides in the Reserves....and would like to continue more about it. However, I do not wish to derail your topic, therefore I will probably start a topic on the subject.

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Argus:

In the case of these so called Jamaicans, of course the person maintaining the 80% statistics would be the first to be unable to give me the percentage to what racial and ethnic groups dominate white collar corporate crime and which group's crimes cost society more money in the long run.

Although this is Rue's from your post, you must admit that is an incredibly accurate statement, especially after the Enron decision came down recently. Maybe we can start a discussion on similar to this thread, but focussed on white collar crime.

Bratton asked: “Tell me, the gang violence that you are experiencing, what is the racial or ethnic background of the gangs?” Frum replied: “That's a refreshingly blunt question. Some say it may be as high as 80 per cent Jamaican. But no one knows for sure, because people here don't like to talk about that.”

I wonder who the "some" are? Still, I have no idea why we are talking about Jamaican gangs on a thread dedicated to racial profiling mass murder and serial killing in Canada.

Chief Bratton’s blunt response: “You need to talk about it. It's all part of the issue. If it's Jamaican gangs that are committing the crimes, well then, go after the Jamaican gangs. And don't be afraid to go after them because they're black. That's the last thing you need to be concerned with.” Macleans magazine

Argus...this is excellent! I see the point now. Just as Bratton says that we need to talk about the possibility of Jamaican involvment in gang crime, we also need to talk about Caucasian involvment in serial killing and mass murder. Bratton is right, it is only harming us to live in denial when we could be doing something proactive to halt this problem. That makes sense, and I'm glad that you've come on board with this discussion.

much appreciated.

There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people.

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Betsy re: religion and Aboriginal suicide

Can you provide a credible link that will back up your statement please. Strange that I've never read anything that even hinted anything to do with religion regarding suicides.

I say "strange", because you'd think that the media will jump on this very juicy theory and have a field day bashing Christianity (which they have been doing for any opportunity they get).

I don't think any opposition from the churches will stop anyone...especially the Liberals and the NDP...from doing any studies. On the contrary, any opposition from the churches is a sure-fire way to get the Liberals to proceed right on ahead.

No, I can provide no link because this is something that has been going around the AFN & COO. People from those organizations who have helped at reserves with high suicide rates always note that the most religious of the fly-in reserves are always the most prone to youth suicide. They are also quick to note that youth suicide is no where near the same level, or simply not an occurence, on reserves where Christian religion is dying out and the old beliefs are coming back.

There is are no such things as stupid questions, just stupid people.

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