U.S. Vice President, J.D. Vance, exposes the west's assault on religious freedom

[Barquentine]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

I met a man the other day who carries a can of bear spray for self protection.  That's not how society should be.

I met a man the other day who wears a tinfoil hat.....

[Radiorum]

14 minutes ago, blackbird said:

That is why God gave mankind his written revelation, in English, the King James Bible.

There are many things that the conscience does not provide direction for.  That is why we need righteous governments and the Bible.  But how the government operates is where the problem is.  Also what young people are taught in school is important and what parents teach them.

A couple of things - first of all, to me the Bible is just a collection of stories told by ancient peoples. I do not believe it was inspired or narrated by God. I have a different understanding of God than you do. 

Also - if you imagine the US government is righteous you are sorely mistaken.

I have a much greater faith in humanity than you do. I believe organized religion has in many cases in fact moved people away from what was right, in their intolerance.

Yes, schools and parents are very important - but teaching blind trust in the Bible is not the way.

20 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Unfortunately, aboriginals did not have the Bible and the knowledge from it so they lived in very uncivilized barbaric societies.

This is not true. Do not believe the myths the white men have created. I have read extensively about the traditional Indigenous culture, and it was civilized, spiritual, diplomatic and marked by lofty ideals of right and wrong. If you want to learn more about the traditional culture of the Natives, you might like reading a book by missionary John Heckewelder, first published in 1818, History, Manners and Customs of the Indian Nations Who Once Inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighboring States. You can read it online for free at:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50350/50350-h/50350-h.htm

30 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Often it is difficult to find the details of the many things they did, but most people must know that much of it was not good. 

My research leads me to believe they had a better society than we do.

30 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Empathy may be a useful thing but it is not a guide on what is right or wrong.

It's totally a guide on what is right and what is wrong.

31 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The Bible does tell us in the first part of Genesis that man rebelled against God and as a consequence received a fallen, corrupt nature.  This was passed down to all of humanity.  The result is the Bible says the human heart is deceitful and wicked.  Whether one is an atheist or not, he still is born with this corrupt human heart.  That is the problem is a nutshell.  The Bible gives the solution to that.

 

Ah, yes, the Book of Genesis, often regarded as the telling of the story of the ascension of consciousness. But the thing is, this consciousness was only reserved for men. The Book of Genesis produced different outcomes for men and women. It was read quite literally when it came to the role of women in the fall. Eve led Adam astray. She is the cause of the fall of the human race. She destroyed God’s image.

This fed centuries of misogynistic interpretations. Eve represents the evil that is inherent in all women. This paradigm spread through the western world: subordinate and inferior, women are by nature disobedient, weak-willed, untrustworthy, deceitful, seductive and motivated only by self-interest.

1 Timothy 2:12-14

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

1 Corinthians 11:3 spells out the hierarchy explicitly.

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Thomas Aquinas, influential in the early Christian church, formalized the reduced status of women. In the 13^th century, he wrote that women are inferior to men in not just strength but intellect. They are born female because of some defect in the active force or maternal disposition and are important not for any inherent value or virtue, but only for their ability to reproduce.

Simply put: Women are defective adjuncts of men. Their only holy role could be in marriage and reproduction. It formed a culture of oppression. It diminished their contributions. It justified the witch trials, as an instance. The Book of Genesis is a man’s story. It did not serve women well.

So, why should women subscribe to the Bible?

38 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Any society that ignores all that is on downward trajectory.  That's where society is now.

I do not share your fear. I do not believe we have to give up our agency to an ancient text. I believe that everything that is good in us can be realized through our own agency. 

And I believe that Trump and Musk work against what is the best of humanity.

[Venandi]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Nobody replied to my post? 

 

Bullseye! 

I didn't plan to enter into this nastiness.... but, I would just point out that a lot of churches (at least here) don't seek out federal grants and are very reluctant to accept any on offer because they invariably come with conditions. Not much of a bullseye really, I'm not opposed to those cuts.

What I do think is a bad idea is removing tax free status, I doubt most of the nasties here even realize how much good work churches do in their own communities... and all of the funds are provided by parishioners. 

A small part of me actually hopes that does happen though, your tax dollars would have to pick up the slack or you would have to argue in favour of cutting programs you probably don't even know are largely sponsored by a cooperative of local churches. If that happens I'll be sure to post some snark about bulls eyes for ya.

Edited February 17 by Venandi

[blackbird]

20 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

A couple of things - first of all, to me the Bible is just a collection of stories told by ancient peoples. I do not believe it was inspired or narrated by God. I have a different understanding of God than you do. 

I don't know what you believe about God and I don't think you know what I believe.  I believe what the Bible says and haven't said much about it on here.

It is impossible in a short space on here to give an adequate response.

The belief in an intelligent Creator has been a common belief for thousands of years.  It is reasonable to believe the Bible's account. There must have been a purpose for God to create mankind.  That purpose is God created the universe and mankind for his own glory. The Bible makes more sense than to just believe we are all here because of some accident of the cosmos.  That doesn't explain how such a complex being as mankind came to be.   

To really understand that men were inspired by God to write the Bible and God directed the words that they wrote one would need to study the Bible first.  The Bible offers internal evidence and also external evidence to support the belief that it came from God.  I can't give all that information on here.  There are many books and websites that go into it.

One is:    Themes.pdf

37 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

Also - if you imagine the US government is righteous you are sorely mistaken.

I don't believe the U.S. government is a righteous government.  I am not saying they are an example we should follow either.

38 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

I have read extensively about the traditional Indigenous culture, and it was civilized, spiritual, diplomatic and marked by lofty ideals of right and wrong.

I don't believe that.  But will look into it again and possible give a reply.

 

1 hour ago, Radiorum said:

So, why should women subscribe to the Bible?

Much of what you said is just not true.  There were also great women in the Bible.  As to why women should subscribe to the Bible, there are a number of reasons.  Most importantly, to be born again, receive eternal life, and become a child of God.

Aside from that,  men and women were created with separate roles in life.  It does not mean women are not equal.  They are equal and just as important as men.  But there is a difference between men and women.  They are important in countless ways.  Men are taught in the Bible to love their wives as themselves.

 

41 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

She is the cause of the fall of the human race. She destroyed God’s image.

I don't think that is right.  You are giving a false portrayal of what the Bible teaches about women. 

The criticism about the Bible and women's treatment or role is often misguided and based on an incorrect understanding of the Bible.  It has been twisted by anti-Christian or anti-Bible individuals or groups to suit their own agenda.  The place of women has been a hot topic among Christians and churches as well.

But this is what one website says about the role of women in a Christian marriage.

" 

When we read Paul’s words in Ephesians 5:23, where he says, “For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church,” it can feel confusing, even unsettling, if we don’t take time to understand what Paul really means. Does being “the head” mean authority and control? Are wives supposed to submit without question, and does this teaching imply inequality? These questions are valid, and to understand Paul’s intent, we need to dig into the cultural context and the deeper meaning of Christ-like leadership.

When Paul speaks about the husband being the head, the original Greek word he uses is “kephalē,” which can refer to the source or origin of something—like the headwaters of a river. This helps us see that Paul's words aren’t about domination but about responsibility and care. Just as Christ’s leadership over the church is rooted in sacrificial love, a husband’s role is not to control, but to serve and nurture his wife, putting her needs above his own. Paul’s teaching is less about hierarchy and more about mutual submission (Ephesians 5:21) and partnership rooted in love."

What Does the Bible Really Say about Women? Their Roles & Value

 

 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Radiorum said:

I have read extensively about the traditional Indigenous culture, and it was civilized, spiritual, diplomatic and marked by lofty ideals of right and wrong.

That is bizarre.  We know from reading articles that aboriginals first of all worshiped false gods usually related to nature.  They also practiced Shamanism, and some still practice cleansing with smoke.  I forgot what it is called.  All of this is contrary to the Bible.  But of course you would have to believe in the God of the Bible and what the Bible says to understand the problem.

This article says:

"Of all the North American Indian tribes, the seventeenth-century Iroquois are the most renowned for their cruelty towards other human beings. Scholars know that they ruthlessly tortured war prisoners and that they were cannibals; in the Algonquin tongue the word Mohawk actually means "flesh-eater." There is even a story that the Indians in neighboring Iroquois territory would flee their homes upon sight of just a small band of Mohawks. Ironically, the Iroquois were not alone in these practices. There is ample evidence that most, if not all, of the Indians of northeastern America engaged in cannibalism and torture—there is documentation of the Huron, Neutral, and Algonquin tribes each exhibiting the same behavior. This paper will examine these atrocities, search through several possible explanations, and ultimately reveal that the practices of cannibalism and torture in the Iroquois were actually related."

War, Cannabalism, Torture - Native Americans Weren't The Nature Loving Doves Humanities Academics Claim | Science 2.0

I know of one island on a lake where reportedly when the men were away, an enemy tribe came and slaughtered all the women and children which were left alone on the island.

[Radiorum]

@blackbird

I don’t want to derail this thread too much, only to state that we can find barbaric behavior amongst all peoples, including at the state-sanctioned level. That the Natives of the long past could be ruthless to their enemies is true, but this inclination is not limited to Indigenous peoples. It is a universal hallmark of humanity.  

 

[User]

14 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Nobody replied to my post? 

 

Bullseye! 

 

An inconvenient Truth has been found...

What was this inconvenient truth you think was found?

[Zeitgeist]

13 hours ago, Radiorum said:

A couple of things - first of all, to me the Bible is just a collection of stories told by ancient peoples. I do not believe it was inspired or narrated by God. I have a different understanding of God than you do. 

Also - if you imagine the US government is righteous you are sorely mistaken.

I have a much greater faith in humanity than you do. I believe organized religion has in many cases in fact moved people away from what was right, in their intolerance.

Yes, schools and parents are very important - but teaching blind trust in the Bible is not the way.

This is not true. Do not believe the myths the white men have created. I have read extensively about the traditional Indigenous culture, and it was civilized, spiritual, diplomatic and marked by lofty ideals of right and wrong. If you want to learn more about the traditional culture of the Natives, you might like reading a book by missionary John Heckewelder, first published in 1818, History, Manners and Customs of the Indian Nations Who Once Inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighboring States. You can read it online for free at:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50350/50350-h/50350-h.htm

My research leads me to believe they had a better society than we do.

It's totally a guide on what is right and what is wrong.

 

Ah, yes, the Book of Genesis, often regarded as the telling of the story of the ascension of consciousness. But the thing is, this consciousness was only reserved for men. The Book of Genesis produced different outcomes for men and women. It was read quite literally when it came to the role of women in the fall. Eve led Adam astray. She is the cause of the fall of the human race. She destroyed God’s image.

This fed centuries of misogynistic interpretations. Eve represents the evil that is inherent in all women. This paradigm spread through the western world: subordinate and inferior, women are by nature disobedient, weak-willed, untrustworthy, deceitful, seductive and motivated only by self-interest.

1 Timothy 2:12-14

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

1 Corinthians 11:3 spells out the hierarchy explicitly.

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Thomas Aquinas, influential in the early Christian church, formalized the reduced status of women. In the 13^th century, he wrote that women are inferior to men in not just strength but intellect. They are born female because of some defect in the active force or maternal disposition and are important not for any inherent value or virtue, but only for their ability to reproduce.

Simply put: Women are defective adjuncts of men. Their only holy role could be in marriage and reproduction. It formed a culture of oppression. It diminished their contributions. It justified the witch trials, as an instance. The Book of Genesis is a man’s story. It did not serve women well.

So, why should women subscribe to the Bible?

I do not share your fear. I do not believe we have to give up our agency to an ancient text. I believe that everything that is good in us can be realized through our own agency. 

And I believe that Trump and Musk work against what is the best of humanity.

No.  The Bible contains important wisdom from thousands of years of history in Western culture.  While there are interesting and sometimes egalitarian Indigenous practices, your overemphasis on pre-literate cultures, many of which had harsh living standards and engaged in brutal warfare and slavery, illustrates the foolish ant-civilization rhetoric that’s destroying the West.

The values underlying our institutions are important. Disregard them and the vacuum tends to be filled by Marxism or other forms of totalitarianism that undermine human dignity and nature.  

Edited February 17 by Zeitgeist

[User]

13 hours ago, Radiorum said:

A couple of things - first of all, to me the Bible is just a collection of stories told by ancient peoples. I do not believe it was inspired or narrated by God. I have a different understanding of God than you do. 

You can have any understanding of whatever god you would like, but there are certain historical facts at play here when discussing what the Bible is, who wrote it, and when it was written... as well as the constant theme throughout it, including the message. It was not merely a collection of stories either. 

 

[Michael Hardner]

19 minutes ago, User said:

What was this inconvenient truth you think was found?

That liberals like religion sometimes and conservatives don't, maybe.

[User]

34 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

That liberals like religion sometimes and conservatives don't, maybe.

Seems like a bad point to make based on your example of where DOGE/Trump were cutting funding. Since that funding was not about being against religion and more about being against some specific NGO's, including some that are religious, flouting immigration law by using government funds to help illegal immigrants or bad immigration policy under the Biden administration in helping asylum seekers relocate. 

 

Edited February 17 by User

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, User said:

1. ... more about being against some specific NGO's, including some that are religious, flouting immigration law by using government funds to help illegal immigrants or bad immigration policy under the Biden administration in helping asylum seekers relocate. 

 

1. Were they breaking the law? I didn't read that. I thought it was just a matter of cutting aid.  In any case, these were Christian churches doing the Christian thing. 

That's uncomfortable for ideologues.

 

 

[User]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Were they breaking the law? I didn't read that. I thought it was just a matter of cutting aid.  In any case, these were Christian churches doing the Christian thing. 

That's uncomfortable for ideologues.

 

 

What does breaking the law have to do with my point?

As I already pointed out, the funding was not targetted because it was Christian churches doing Christian things. If that were the case, there is a ton of other programs Christian churches and other faith-based groups are involved in they get some $$$ for doing. 

The simple fact here is that you have yet to make any kind of a real argument with substantive facts or reasoning to show they were targetted because they were religious organizations. 

 

[Michael Hardner]

14 minutes ago, User said:

1. What does breaking the law have to do with my point?

 

2. The simple fact here is that you have yet to make any kind of a real argument with substantive facts or reasoning to show they were targetted because they were religious organizations. 

 

1. "Flouting immigration law"?

2. I didn't say that.

[User]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. "Flouting immigration law"?

2. I didn't say that.

1. Flouting immigration law != breaking the law. 

Example: It is illegal to enter the country without authorization, but some of these organizations don't care, they know this is happening, they just turn a blind eye and help people they know are doing it.

Example: It is not necessarily illegal to sit out in the desert near the border and offer shade, food, water and free transportation to folks... but you are doing it knowing that folks you are helping are undoubtedly illegal immigrants, but you skirt the law by turning a blind eye to that. 

2. Yes, you did:

"That liberals like religion sometimes and conservatives don't, maybe."

[herbie]

19 hours ago, blackbird said:

I met a man the other day who carries a can of bear spray for self protection.  That's not how society should be.

You're correct. Society shouldn't tolerate people who purposely break the law regarding weapons, nor those so clearly paranoid they think they have to. Lock them up!

19 hours ago, blackbird said:

I met a man the other day who carries a can of bear spray for self protection.  That's not how society should be.

You're correct. Society shouldn't tolerate people who purposely break the law regarding weapons, nor those so clearly paranoid they think they have to. Lock them up!

[Aristides]

What a joke, the religious right is running the US.

[herbie]

Good you called them correctly because

Christian Conservatives aren't. (either)

[CDN1]

On 2/16/2025 at 6:02 PM, Radiorum said:

You are not asking for religious freedom. You are asking to impose the religion of some on the many.

 

The future of Canada is arranged child marriages, Sharia Law, regular Islamist knife/car/terrorist attacks, and women in niqabs everywhere you look.

I don't know how any serious person could look at what's going on in Europe, and double down on repeating the exact same f'n mistake here. Absolute treason!

Edited February 19 by CDN1

[User]

5 hours ago, herbie said:

Good you called them correctly because

Christian Conservatives aren't. (either)

Maybe just add that to your signature, then you don't have to post it like 5 times a day... 

[herbie]

Only posted it twice, but happy to see it drives you nuts.

[Zeitgeist]

On 2/16/2025 at 6:59 PM, Michael Hardner said:

https://wisconsinwatch.org/2025/02/elon-musk-calls-for-cutting-funds-to-lutheran-groups-including-in-wisconsin/

 

Elon Musk has cut Lutheran and Catholic aid groups from the funding they use to help people.

Yes but this was largely because these charities weren’t even acting in accordance with their originally professed missions.  I agree that DOGE has to be careful not to overreach.  I think Musk’s role is constantly at risk of conflict of interest.  I think there’s tremendous value, however, in looking at what these expenditures actually fund.  What are we aiding?  What are we defending?  Did we know about it?  Did we vote for it?  In the case of religious charities, does the funding even support the belief system that’s supposed to guide the charity?

I think this crisis in the West is primarily a crisis of meaning.  What kind of society should we encourage?  What should we fund?  

[Videospirit]

On 2/16/2025 at 4:11 PM, blackbird said:

We know Europe and Canada have been moving against religious freedom, especially against Biblical Christianity.

This is nothing new.  It has been going on for a long time.

Examples are shown by the attitude and policies of the federal Liberals. 

Trudeau and Liberals have frequently defended the killing of the pre-born babies and defended a woman's right to choose abortion.

Canada is one of the few countries in the world that have no legal restrictions against abortion.

In 2016 the federal Liberals brought in medical assistance in dying, another anti-Christian law that has led to now over 16,000 deaths per year.

Canada teaches sexual orientation and gender identity to school children which is another perversion that is anti-Christian.

The woke/progressives DEI policies forced on government, the Canadian military, and many companies is another example of the shifting west.

Many liberals and left push the idea of multiculturalism which is just a cover meaning anti-Christian.  The west has historically been a Judeo-Christian civilization but has shifted away from that in recent decades.  The west has placed more emphasis on mass immigration from the third world and Muslim countries.  This has led to all kinds of problems.  Now we are witnessing repeated demonstrations and anti-Semitic attacks against Jews and their places of worship.  Even our own Liberal government is basically anti-Semitic.  There is a news item in the last day pointing this out.

So J.D. Vance's speech in Europe about the movement against Christianity in the west should come as no surprise and would be another reason to cause the Trump administration to oppose the direction the west is heading and especially be critical of their next door neighbour, Canada.

 

You are unhinged. Maybe you should talk to a therapist. I pray for your troubled soul.

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Videospirit said:

You are unhinged. Maybe you should talk to a therapist. I pray for your troubled soul.

Explain how he is wrong about anything he said.  

[blackbird]

There is also another related subject and that is the large number of immigrants that have been brought in from the Muslim world.  I don't know how many people know this, but this religion of peace has proven to be not so peaceful in much of the world.  European countries experience weekly terrorist attacks.

The continual wars and conflicts in the middle east has a lot to do with Islam and their opposition to those they consider as infidels.  Israel is of course considered as infidels and the fact Israel's capital Jerusalem is also the location of what Muslims consider a major centre of their religion.  Therefore the militant Islamists like Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood and other terrorist groups will always want the destruction of Israel.  But they also consider the west, especially the U.S., as infidels and enemies of Islam.  Therefore we should understand that Israel being geographically in the centre of the Muslim world, is a kind of bulwark between Islam and the western nations.  As a consequence their attention is focused heavily against Israel.  If Israel did not exist, they would turn much more attention to the west.  So in that sense Israel is on the frontline defending the west.

We should keep that in mind and be more appreciative of their defence of their security and freedom as a democratic country.  Our security is closely related to what is going on in the middle east.