Lowering the flag for slain soldiers?

[GostHacked]

The fact is, war is an overused word anyway in modern society, so most people wouldn't know a real war if it hit them in the face.

That's my point. Though I'll go even further: Afghanistan is not a war in the sense of being a force to force conflict, but neither is it a true counterinsurgency. There's not yet the kind or organization or sophistication in the "enemy" for this to be considered more than a glorifed policing operation, albeit one over a large, unstable area. If this was a war, we'd have Canadians coming home in bags every day.

There is no longer a 'war' in Afghanistan. It is more of a nation building/peace enforcers. The war was over years ago. They have a parliment and a new government, we are no longer AT WAR with Afghanistan, if we were actually at war with them in the first place.

And the Americans are following us into battle currently. The American troops are under Canadian command in Kandahar, same with the French, Britons and the others.

Canada (through I guess the guise that is NATO) is controlling the security in Afghanistan at the moment. The US still overall runs the show in Afghanistan with the puppet Karzai in place.

The war you all refer to is the War on Terrorism. And this is a US thing, not a Canadian thing. IF Canada truely beleived in the war on terrorism, we would have went balls out in Iraq, but we did not. Also the War on Terrorism is perpetual and never ending. It is designed to be open ended.

Now I had a feeling that our soldiers would get more coverage in the press ever since Harper said he supported the troops. Now I see more ads on TV for the Canadian Military (with american style commercials) we see more coverage on TV for the troops in the news, papers, net.

Harper is really looking like Bush in his actions and rhetoric.

[Army Guy]

4 of our nations soldiers are coming home soon in caskets, Accompanied by an honour party made up of close military friends. Which then they will proceed from trenton airport directly to where thier comrads will be buried.

They won't be stopping in on ottawa to see if the flags are at half mast, nor do they care. Because all across every military base the flags will be at half staff until they are buried, the military will have thier own parades and services to honor these men that have made the ultimate sacrafice. As they always do when the military or RCMP, member dies in the line of duty.

I would think that most Canadians would agree that this is not the time to argue about our nations flag postion on the pole, but rather a time to mourn our dead.

[scribblet]

The half-mast protocol

Many Canadians are outraged that the government is declining to lower the flag to half-mast when Canadian soldiers die in Afghanistan. They should not be. It has been the practice for decades to lower the flag for all soldiers on Remembrance Day, when Canada honours its war dead. Only in 2002, when four Canadians were killed in a friendly-fire incident in Afghanistan, did the previous Liberal government beginlowering the flag for individual soldiers who died in combat. The new Conservative government obviously meant no disrespect to Canadian forces, whose mission in Afghanistan it supports to the hilt, when it reverted to the traditional protocol.

The government may have erred in its handling of the decision, failing to adequately explain its reason until the deaths of four soldiers on the weekend raised the issue again. But its reasoning is sound. However brave they were, these four were no braver than the Canadians who died in Bosnia in the 1990s, in Korea in the 1950s or in the two world wars. To lower the flag for more recent casualties was to make an unfair distinction.

It is a grim fact that Canadian deaths are becoming almost routine in Afghanistan, the most dangerous mission for our troops since the Korean War. Canadians must steel themselves for the fact that quite a few more men and women may lose their lives as Canadian forces struggle to give hope to the Afghan people and prevent international terrorism from flourishing in their country again, an important and noble cause if there ever was one.

To make a national show of mourning over each soldier who dies -- lowering the flag on Parliament's Peace Tower and other public buildings; sending the Prime Minister to meet the bodies when they are brought home to Canada -- almost suggests that the country has been shaken to its roots. That is not the message that Ottawa wants to send at a time when our soldiers are facing a ruthless foe in foreign fields. Far better to mourn in quiet dignity, marking the loss and then moving on. This is what soldiers do when they lose one of their comrades. This is what we at home should learn to do, too.

Ottawa should not sanitize what is going on in Afghanistan or try to play down the fact that our soldiers are dying, but neither should it let grief undermine resolve. It is a thin line to walk. Deaths like this weekend's are a tragedy but they are not a crisis. We have seen their kind before in our history and we will see them again. They are the cost of defending freedom.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...FLAG25/TPStory/

[Black Dog]

It is a grim fact that Canadian deaths are becoming almost routine in Afghanistan, the most dangerous mission for our troops since the Korean War. Canadians must steel themselves for the fact that quite a few more men and women may lose their lives as Canadian forces struggle to give hope to the Afghan people and prevent international terrorism from flourishing in their country again, an important and noble cause if there ever was one.

urgh. First: that this Canada's most dangerous mission since the Korean War (where they faced more than a quarter million Red Chinese) is both stating the obvious and, I believe, overstating the danger. It does not appaear that the oppossition in Afghanistan has a particularily high level of sophistication or coordination. As for the rest, I would love-love!- to see someone explain how Afghanistan without western intervention will automatically revert to a terrorist-supporting state. Of all the arguments for intervention, that one is the weakest.

[shoop]

There is a difference between a private member in opposition putting a motion forward and Government policy.

Power to James Moore doing what he did at the time, but it wasn't Conservative party policy.

Very interesting how Garth Turner was one of the only two Government MPs to criticize his Government on this issue.

If Garth really has such troubles with Prime Minister Harper's Government, why did he choose to run as a Conservative in the first place?

Didn't the torys under Harper vote to lower the flag to half mast in 2002(I think). I'll search for an article on the subject. Having said that, this is arguing over semantics when we shouldn't even be there(Afghanistan)

[newbie]

Seems to me we lower the flag for unelected Senators when they die, RCMP officers, but we can't lower if for the young folks giving their lives for us. Not sure if I totally understand.

[shoop]

The flags are lowered in a number of places, including the soldiers home base and the base they are serving at abroad when they fall in the line of duty.

The Government is just standardizing the procedure for honouring these soldiers. Unlike the Martin government, where literally every case was brough to the PMO for a decision.

Quite sad the Liberals using the commemoration of fallen soldiers to make political hay. Not very respectful IMHO.

Seems to me we lower the flag for unelected Senators when they die, RCMP officers, but we can't lower if for the young folks giving their lives for us. Not sure if I totally understand.

[KrustyKidd]

I would love-love!- to see someone explain how Afghanistan without western intervention will automatically revert to a terrorist-supporting state. Of all the arguments for intervention, that one is the weakest.

The Taliban would more than likely continue hammering away at the weak government until they came back into power. Hope that helps.

[Argus]

Very interesting how Garth Turner was one of the only two Government MPs to criticize his Government on this issue.

If Garth really has such troubles with Prime Minister Harper's Government, why did he choose to run as a Conservative in the first place?

He thought he'd get a cabinet post. He's been sulking ever since.

[Argus]

I would love-love!- to see someone explain how Afghanistan without western intervention will automatically revert to a terrorist-supporting state. Of all the arguments for intervention, that one is the weakest.

The Taliban would more than likely continue hammering away at the weak government until they came back into power. Hope that helps.

More likely the central government, being weak and without its own large power base, as yet, would wind up being owned by one or another of the warlords. The warlords would all fight it out, with the taliban supporting one or another, and, quite possibly winding up in charge again. In any event, there would be war and chaos there for some years to come, and this is the perfect place for a terrorist group to find a secure home with lots of potential recruits.

[betsy]

Apparently the veterans are not in favor of lowering the flag. They say soldiers fight and die to keep that flag up!

[GostHacked]

Apparently the veterans are not in favor of lowering the flag. They say soldiers fight and die to keep that flag up!

Damn Betsy, this is the frame of mind I can get behind.

[lost&outofcontrol]

There is a difference between a private member in opposition putting a motion forward and Government policy.

Power to James Moore doing what he did at the time, but it wasn't Conservative party policy.

Um, it was passed unanimously, from the article I liked to:

However, back in October 2004, after submariner Lieut. Chris Saunders died in a fire on HMCS Chicoutimi, it was actually a Conservative MP -- James Moore -- who put forward a motion calling for flags on all government buildings to be flown at half-mast.

The motion was passed unanimously and up to now, has been policy ever since.

That means everybody including Harper agreed with the policy at the time.

Oddly enough, while looking at past votes in the House, I stumbled upon this one, Harper himself voted for the gun registry legislation at Second Reading way back in 1995.

[geoffrey]

Harper has never been the conservative that Manning or the other westerns have been. Hence his disgust with the reform movement. He's always been more Tory than Reformer.

[Nocrap]

Harper has never been the conservative that Manning or the other westerns have been. Hence his disgust with the reform movement. He's always been more Tory than Reformer.

Army Guy spoke of the pomp and ceremony that will take place when the four dead soldiers are flown into Trenton - only problem is - Harper has forbidden media access and once again shut out Canadians from the reality of this war.

[margrace]

Apparently the veterans are not in favor of lowering the flag. They say soldiers fight and die to keep that flag up!

Thats not what I hear them saying.

[margrace]

Harper has never been the conservative that Manning or the other westerns have been. Hence his disgust with the reform movement. He's always been more Tory than Reformer.

Army Guy spoke of the pomp and ceremony that will take place when the four dead soldiers are flown into Trenton - only problem is - Harper has forbidden media access and once again shut out Canadians from the reality of this war.

Interesting that on this mornings news the cameras where there behind a wire fence but still taking pictures.

[scribblet]

There is a difference between a private member in opposition putting a motion forward and Government policy.

Power to James Moore doing what he did at the time, but it wasn't Conservative party policy.

Um, it was passed unanimously, from the article I liked to:

However, back in October 2004, after submariner Lieut. Chris Saunders died in a fire on HMCS Chicoutimi, it was actually a Conservative MP -- James Moore -- who put forward a motion calling for flags on all government buildings to be flown at half-mast.

The motion was passed unanimously and up to now, has been policy ever since.

That means everybody including Harper agreed with the policy at the time.

Oddly enough, while looking at past votes in the House, I stumbled upon this one, Harper himself voted for the gun registry legislation at Second Reading way back in 1995.

But changed his mind and voted against it later when he realized its implications etc.

I guess no one cares that all the CPC are doing is going back to original protocol, and that the legion actually agrees with this. All this is political back stabbing to score points by using the funerals and deaths as a political football. Way to go liberals et al - not

[lost&outofcontrol]

But changed his mind and voted against it later when he realized its implications etc.

I guess no one cares that all the CPC are doing is going back to original protocol, and that the legion actually agrees with this. All this is political back stabbing to score points by using the funerals and deaths as a political football. Way to go liberals et al - not

The point I'm trying to make here is that whether the prime minister is Harper, Martin or even Layton, we're all stuck with flip floppers. We would rather spend a full day "debating" the issue of lowering a freaking flag than actually debate issues which are more important. It's the hypocrisies of toady's politician hence today's politics.

Again, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[PocketRocket]

We could simply make the flagpoles twice as high, but fly the flag at the same height as usual, that way it says at half-mast all the time, and everyone is happy

[Wilber]

]"The debate over flag-lowering has garnered mixed opinions from veterans' groups.

Bob Butt, a national spokesman for the Royal Canadian Legion (Dominion Command), said the legion was initially opposed to the practice. But once the flag was lowered for the first Afghanistan casualties, that started a tradition that should continue, he said.

''If you do it for one, do it for all,'' he said. ''You can't be selective.''

Cliff Chadderton, chairman of the National Council of Veteran Associations, which represents 55 veterans' groups, said it was a ''mistake'' to start the half-staffing in the first place. It unfairly distinguishes those who die in Afghanistan from those who have died in past wars, he said.

The memories of soldiers who have died in Afghanistan, he added, should be commemorated along with those of every other military death when the flag is lowered on Nov. 11, Remembrance Day.

''We don't draw a distinction on a death in Afghanistan or a death in Normandy,'' he said from Florida, where he was recovering from back surgery.

What's more, he added, he plans on advising the Conservative government to stop the practice when he meets some members of Parliament next week.

Ottawa Citizen"

[Black Dog]

The Taliban would more than likely continue hammering away at the weak government until they came back into power. Hope that helps.

See, I thought the Taliban were "scattered...their leaders killed or captured." So either the Taliban is like Hydra (the mythical beast or the comic book supervillian organization: take your pick) and is self-replicating to the point of being nigh indestructable, or the past 4 years of war against them was totally ineffective or the danger they pose has been greatly overstated.

More likely the central government, being weak and without its own large power base, as yet, would wind up being owned by one or another of the warlords. The warlords would all fight it out, with the taliban supporting one or another, and, quite possibly winding up in charge again. In any event, there would be war and chaos there for some years to come, and this is the perfect place for a terrorist group to find a secure home with lots of potential recruits.

That's more like it. Problem is, it agains assumes a prominent role for the Taliban. What evidence is there that the Taliban is a significant force in Afghanistan? Have the last four years done nothing to weaken thier position? Also: if the place is in a state of war and chaos, it can hardly be a stable place for a terrorist group to set up shop: the stability of the country under the Taliban is what drew Al Qaeda there in the first place: it's a lot harder to organize in the middle of a war zone.

[lost&outofcontrol]

We could simply make the flagpoles twice as high, but fly the flag at the same height as usual, that way it says at half-mast all the time, and everyone is happy

I like that idea. We could make a circular flag pole, that way, no top and bottom.

[Army Guy]

Army Guy spoke of the pomp and ceremony that will take place when the four dead soldiers are flown into Trenton - only problem is - Harper has forbidden media access and once again shut out Canadians from the reality of this war.

Just what is it that Canadians have been shut out of ? Thier deaths have been reported in every media outlet across the country, who died,How they died , when they died, ETC ETC. Now your complaining that thier covering up something WHAT are the covering -up ? WHAT is it that you need to see or know about, How the military honours thier dead, is that what you HAVE to see..Do you have to see the coffins unloaded to confirm YUP theres four of them, or do we go further and open the caskets for everyone to see what the price of war looks like...

Canada's time with these troops is over, now is it is the military's time to honour thier fallen comrads, and once that is done it will be the families time to honour and to put to rest thier loved ones.

And don't give me that crap about you have the right to know, or the media has the right to cover the news...It's all about respect for our fallen. These events should not be about politics or turned into a media circus

[Michael Hardner]

Canada's time with these troops is over, now is it is the military's time to honour thier fallen comrads, and once that is done it will be the families time to honour and to put to rest thier loved ones.

And don't give me that crap about you have the right to know, or the media has the right to cover the news...It's all about respect for our fallen. These events should not be about politics or turned into a media circus

Playing devil's advocate - don't the citizens of Canada have the right to observe their fallen sons returning ? If the media sees fit to honour them in that way, why does the government feel that it knows better ?