It’s Official: US Abandoning Ukraine | Scheerpost

godzilla · February 6

Just now, WestCanMan said:

Ukraine should stop trying to force NATO down Russia's throat, unless they like war.

what are you missing? they were neutral for most of their independence. they have suggested they continue to be independent and not seek NATO membership to negotiate the end of the war.

Putin doesn't care. he wants to rebuild the old Soviet Union. he's said so! don't you get that?

WestCanMan · February 6

20 hours ago, godzilla said:

you realize that all western governments are mixed economies right? that they are cakes of socialism covered in sweet free market capitalism for wealth generation?

whats fake about that?

its a pet peeve of mine that "socialism" is some ideological dog whistle word. "communism", "oligarchs" etc... sure. but "socialism"? its a necessary part of the power of western liberal democracies.

If you look into the socialist aspects of our countries, it's always wasteful.

We pour hundreds of millions of dollars into CBC every year and they're still just a blight on humanity.

Gov't-run agencies/crown corporations are famous for overpaying for mundane things like doorknobs, monitor screens, etc, because their suppliers (connected to politicians) rape them.

Our hospitals are overrun by ridiculous unions, so no volunteers are allowed to set foot there anymore, everyone gets premium wages with full benefits and lots of sicks days, and the nurses always cry that they want to get paid like doctors.

Clinics bill the gov't $150 or so even for 5-minute appointments.

We have Moscow Mutual car insurance in BC, they charge what they want for insurance because no one is allowed to compete with them, and they have a notoriously unfair payout system, which is at times cheap while also being ripe for scammers.

Everything the gov't touches here is basically crap.

Gaétan · February 6

13 minutes ago, godzilla said:

what are you missing? they were neutral for most of their independence. they have suggested they continue to be independent and not seek NATO membership to negotiate the end of the war.

Putin doesn't care. he wants to rebuild the old Soviet Union. he's said so! don't you get that?

Politicians are lobbyists and in the case of this war of the arms industry. What difference does it make for a citizen of Eastern Ukraine or Crimea to be a Russian or Ukrainian citizen? Was it worth sacrificing hundreds of thousands of people? Under what logic did they wage this war? This war was useless except for those who profited from it.

godzilla · February 6

6 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

If you look into the socialist aspects of our countries, it's always wasteful.

We pour hundreds of millions of dollars into CBC every year and they're still just a blight on humanity.

Gov't-run agencies/crown corporations are famous for overpaying for mundane things like doorknobs, monitor screens, etc, because their suppliers (connected to politicians) rape them.

Our hospitals are overrun by ridiculous unions, so no volunteers are allowed to set foot there anymore, everyone gets premium wages with full benefits and lots of sicks days, and the nurses always cry that they want to get paid like doctors.

Clinics bill the gov't $150 or so even for 5-minute appointments.

We have Moscow Mutual car insurance in BC, they charge what they want for insurance because no one is allowed to compete with them, and they have a notoriously unfair payout system, which is at times cheap while also being ripe for scammers.

Everything the gov't touches here is basically crap.

some of this is just... false. but so what? no system is going to be perfect... what is your alternative?

to have all roads privately owned? to have all rail privately owned? to have the all emergency service show up at your house only if you pay a privately owned supplier? do we privatize the electrical grid like has been experimented in other jurisdictions to find out that private fraud was even more dangerous? or the water supply?

i'm all ears here... do tell!

WestCanMan · February 6

17 minutes ago, godzilla said:

what are you missing? they were neutral for most of their independence.

What are you smoking? The US has openly been talking about Ukraine joining NATO for the past few decades.

Biden himself was doing it as VP in the WH in the 2000s, 2010s and again as POTUS in the 2020s.

The reason given for Biden spending so much time in Ukraine, back when he got Hunter the job at Burisma, was to "get rid of corruption so that Ukraine could join NATO". Just note that when they say "corruption" they don't really mean get rid of corruption, because Hunter's job was a product of corruption of the worst kind, at the highest level.

They just wanted to strip Ukraine of Russian influence, even when that meant controlling elections, inciting riots, and discriminating against ethnic Russians. (How many politicians are left in the Ukrainian gov't right now from ethnic Russian areas, do ya figger? Zero, that's how many.)

Quote

they have suggested they continue to be independent and not seek NATO membership to negotiate the end of the war.

That wasn't their goal even just a few months ago, and no doubt once peace is re-established the NATO push will start up again the next time a Demonrat is in the WH.

WestCanMan · February 6

2 minutes ago, godzilla said:

some of this is just... false. but so what? no system is going to be perfect... what is your alternative?

When the Catholic church ran the hospitals in this country, it was normal to have volunteers. Women could learn nursing on the job with less time spent in schools.

Now there's a huge education industry and a 100% paid nursing industry and we pay for it all.

godzilla · February 6

3 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

Politicians are lobbyists and in the case of this war of the arms industry. What difference does it make for a citizen of Eastern Ukraine or Crimea to be a Russian or Ukrainian citizen? Was it worth sacrificing hundreds of thousands of people? Under what logic did they wage this war? This war was useless except for those who profited from it.

so you're asking why Putin invaded?

are you ignorant of what its like to be a citizen of Russia and that of a democracy?

if JT said, no more media unless it praises me! all elections will be rigged in my favour! all industries and business will be transferred to my political colleagues! i shall run the state forever! you'd prefer that kind of Canada or the admittedly not perfect system that we and most western democracies have now?

godzilla · February 6

9 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

What are you smoking? The US has openly been talking about Ukraine joining NATO for the past few decades.

Biden himself was doing it as VP in the WH in the 2000s, 2010s and again as POTUS in the 2020s.

The reason given for Biden spending so much time in Ukraine, back when he got Hunter the job at Burisma, was to "get rid of corruption so that Ukraine could join NATO". Just note that when they say "corruption" they don't really mean get rid of corruption, because Hunter's job was a product of corruption of the worst kind, at the highest level.

They just wanted to strip Ukraine of Russian influence, even when that meant controlling elections, inciting riots, and discriminating against ethnic Russians. (How many politicians are left in the Ukrainian gov't right now from ethnic Russian areas, do ya figger? Zero, that's how many.)

That wasn't their goal even just a few months ago, and no doubt once peace is re-established the NATO push will start up again the next time a Demonrat is in the WH.

Zelensky says Ukraine prepared to discuss neutrality in peace talks

two years ago.

the only way your version of reality can be true is if hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were somehow being forced to participate in this war. thats not happening. they are fighting a much larger foe and they will not stop. the west could abandon them and they will not stop.

i get that you are a Putin lover or something. but that guy is an international terrorist. the Ukrainian people know that. you don't. are you actually a Russian immigrant or something? whats with the Russian nationalism?

Edited February 6 by godzilla

godzilla · February 6

12 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

When the Catholic church ran the hospitals in this country, it was normal to have volunteers. Women could learn nursing on the job with less time spent in schools.

Now there's a huge education industry and a 100% paid nursing industry and we pay for it all.

you got me! i don't know what to say... you're a complete !diot.

Black Dog · February 6

35 minutes ago, godzilla said:

you got me! i don't know what to say... you're a complete !diot.

WestCanMan had his brain surgery done by a volunteer who came in off the street and look at him today!

WestCanMan · February 6

1 hour ago, godzilla said:

Zelensky says Ukraine prepared to discuss neutrality in peace talks

two years ago.

the only way your version of reality can be true is if hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were somehow being forced to participate in this war. thats not happening. they are fighting a much larger foe and they will not stop. the west could abandon them and they will not stop.

i get that you are a Putin lover or something. but that guy is an international terrorist. the Ukrainian people know that. you don't. are you actually a Russian immigrant or something? whats with the Russian nationalism?

Biden never allowed peace talks to proceed. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/09/us/politics/biden-putin-tucker-carlson-peace.html

That was the case over and over agin.

"You can't end my proxy war, b!otches!"

WestCanMan · February 6

56 minutes ago, godzilla said:

you got me! i don't know what to say... you're a complete !diot.

You're a complete loser, gz.

You wanted an example of the failings of socialist policies and I gave you one.

Then you fired back with "Do we have to privately own roads" 🤣

Get a life.

robosmith · February 6

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

If you look into the socialist aspects of our countries, it's always wasteful.

We pour hundreds of millions of dollars into CBC every year and they're still just a blight on humanity.

Gov't-run agencies/crown corporations are famous for overpaying for mundane things like doorknobs, monitor screens, etc, because their suppliers (connected to politicians) rape them.

Our hospitals are overrun by ridiculous unions, so no volunteers are allowed to set foot there anymore, everyone gets premium wages with full benefits and lots of sicks days, and the nurses always cry that they want to get paid like doctors.

Clinics bill the gov't $150 or so even for 5-minute appointments.

We have Moscow Mutual car insurance in BC, they charge what they want for insurance because no one is allowed to compete with them, and they have a notoriously unfair payout system, which is at times cheap while also being ripe for scammers.

Everything the gov't touches here is basically crap.

So move. We have nothing like that here in the US. BTW, I love PBS; so much better than Reality TV shows.

godzilla · February 7

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

You're a complete loser, gz.

You wanted an example of the failings of socialist policies and I gave you one.

Then you fired back with "Do we have to privately own roads" 🤣

Get a life.

you're absolutely right! i need to get a life... participating on these threads have inspired me to research the science of logic and how human belief systems work. i have built and sold two engineering companies and have a BSc in Computer Science and a Masters in Data Science and Machine Learning so that knowledge extrapolates and will be a benefit to me in the future.

but of course, over time i get that there are only about 6 people on here i'm debating and they will never change their minds about anything. you can ask stoic questions all you like. their very worlds would fall apart if they were to be wrong in any of their manufactured belief systems.

and thats good to know too. that people like that exist.

so its been easy torturing people when shit for brains Trump is leader of the free world. but of course, when i stop learning so much i'm just wasting my time.

there is absolutely no reason to debate someone who has a response like:

"When the Catholic church ran the hospitals in this country, it was normal to have volunteers. Women could learn nursing on the job with less time spent in schools.

Now there's a huge education industry and a 100% paid nursing industry and we pay for it all."

that IS the stupidest post i've ever seen on this entire board. not to single you out. there have been a lot of ignorant excuses for fabricated belief systems. some truly deranged thinking. but it hits me at a low point. you've learned nothing from our talks. the typing is a waste of time.

WestCanMan · February 7

1 minute ago, godzilla said:

you're absolutely right! i need to get a life... participating on these threads have inspired me to research the science of logic and how human belief systems work. i have built and sold two engineering companies and have a BSc in Computer Science and a Masters in Data Science and Machine Learning so that knowledge extrapolates and will be a benefit to me in the future.

but of course, over time i get that there are only about 6 people on here i'm debating and they will never change their minds about anything. you can ask stoic questions all you like. their very worlds would fall apart if they were to be wrong in any of their manufactured belief systems.

and thats good to know too. that people like that exist.

so its been easy torturing people when shit for brains Trump is leader of the free world. but of course, when i stop learning so much i'm just wasting my time.

there is absolutely no reason to debate someone who has a response like:

"When the Catholic church ran the hospitals in this country, it was normal to have volunteers. Women could learn nursing on the job with less time spent in schools.

Now there's a huge education industry and a 100% paid nursing industry and we pay for it all."

that IS the stupidest post i've ever seen on this entire board. not to single you out. there have been a lot of ignorant excuses for fabricated belief systems. some truly deranged thinking. but it hits me at a low point. you've learned nothing from our talks. the typing is a waste of time.

Liar. You never started a company, you never owned a company, you have neither said nor done anything intelligent in your life, and your inability to understand that failure of the gov't hospital model is just more proof of that.

The simple fact is that when the gov't runs businesses, they are always wildly inefficient, and hospitals are a perfect example.

Normal businesses actually rely on merit in order to succeed, they require actual workers handling real work loads, while the model for crown corporations is based on cronyism, nepotism, kickbacks, massive amounts of funding, waste, lack of customer service skills, bureaucracy and inefficiency.

If you know anyone who's lazy and likes to shit on other people, but you want them to make decent money and get a pension, their only hope is a government job.

Scott75 · February 7

15 hours ago, robosmith said:

22 hours ago, Scott75 said:

I'm curious as to why you think Putin is the richest Kleptocrat. Do you have a list of the top 10 or something?

Hmm... I thought it was common knowledge. Putin was poor when he was young and just a common KGB officer.

The Putin Kleptocracy

November 30, 2023

The world is in turmoil, and two vicious wars rage, because Vladimir Putin and his accomplices stole, then harnessed, the wealth of Russia which encompasses 11.5 per cent of the global landmass with enormous natural resources. He has created the world’s largest, militarized kleptocracy and aims to dominate the world. Putin controls minerals, metals, and oil resources worth $75 trillion, more than the US and Saudi Arabia combined. He is also the world’s only trillionaire (equivalent to 1,000 billionaires) — but his name does not appear on the Forbes’ billionaire list nor does it show up on any bank accounts, share certificates, or property deeds. The 105 Russian billionaires listed by Forbes in 2023 are Putin’s proxies and partners, and most of their assets or companies are controlled and owned by Putin. As former Russian chess champion and exiled politician Garry Kasparov said: “[Putin] controls more money, directly or indirectly, than any other individual in the history of the human race". And money determines who rules the world.

I like Garry Kasparov, so if he says that Putin "controls more money, directly or indirectly, than any other individual in the history of the human race", I'm willing to believe he may just be right. But I've never seen any evidence for this notion that Putin "aims to dominate the world". Not wanting to live next to a neighbour that had been killing Russian speakers and ethnic Russians for the past 8 years, had been planning on retaking the Donbass Republics and Crimea, and which had nuclear weapon ambitions, on the other hand, I can fully understand. His reaction to all of this was akin to JFK's reaction to the Cuban Missile Crisis. In -that- crisis, Russia had the good sense to negotiate a deal with the U.S. early on, thus preventing a war between the U.S. and Cuba. The United States, on the other hand, had grown far too arrogant: It started moving to break its 1990 promise to not expand NATO "one inch eastward" of Germany soon after making it back in 1991, with the breakup of the Soviet Union and admitted 3 countries east of Germany in 1999. In 2008, it also supported Ukraine's bid to join. Intelligent people such as American Professor John Mearsheimer predicted where this would go. I got into this with DUI Offender back in post #102. Quoting:

**

It is not as if no one knew about the dangers. From Henry Kissinger to Zbigniew Brzezinski to George Kennan, experienced American statesmen have warned that even talking about Westernizing Ukraine through NATO might be fatal to peace. As John Mearsheimer cautioned us in September 2015, “the West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path, and the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked.” Mearsheimer’s prescient speech has received 21 million views on YouTube, almost half in the last few weeks, with Washington insiders and media poohbahs excoriating him as a Putin apologist, even as a petition campaign was launched to get Mearsheimer fired from the University of Chicago. We would have better off heeding his warning.

Compounding the damage, Washington’s loud championing of the Ukrainian cause has recently been accompanied by contrary signs of weakness and appeasement, from the humiliating botch of the NATO withdrawal from Afghanistan last summer to President Biden’s hint that a “minor incursion” into Ukraine might not occasion a decisive response. Like Chamberlain veering between irrational extremes in 1938-1939, the West’s Ukraine policy has blatantly provoked Russian anxieties and offered Ukrainians the false promise of an American security umbrella, while doing nowhere near enough to actually deter Russia. Ukraine may not suffer as badly as Poland did from 1939 to 1945, but much of the country has already gotten wrecked.

**

Source:

https://americanmind.org/salvo/the-primrose-path-to-catastrophe/

Edited February 7 by Scott75

CdnFox · February 7

On 1/27/2025 at 1:17 PM, robosmith said:

I hope Trump's tariffs destroy the Canadian energy businesses. America FIRST! LMAO

Look who's a trump supporter now

9 hours ago, godzilla said:

you're absolutely right! i need to get a life... participating on these threads have inspired me to research the science of logic and how human belief systems work. i have built and sold two engineering companies and have a BSc in Computer Science and a Masters in Data Science and Machine Learning so that knowledge extrapolates and will be a benefit to me in the future.

but of course, over time i get that there are only about 6 people on here i'm debating and they will never change their minds about anything. you can ask stoic questions all you like. their very worlds would fall apart if they were to be wrong in any of their manufactured belief systems.

and thats good to know too. that people like that exist.

so its been easy torturing people when shit for brains Trump is leader of the free world. but of course, when i stop learning so much i'm just wasting my time.

there is absolutely no reason to debate someone who has a response like:

"When the Catholic church ran the hospitals in this country, it was normal to have volunteers. Women could learn nursing on the job with less time spent in schools.

Now there's a huge education industry and a 100% paid nursing industry and we pay for it all."

that IS the stupidest post i've ever seen on this entire board. not to single you out. there have been a lot of ignorant excuses for fabricated belief systems. some truly deranged thinking. but it hits me at a low point. you've learned nothing from our talks. the typing is a waste of time.

I've seen your 'logic' here. I think your story there is a pretty hard sell

Nationalist · February 7

14 hours ago, godzilla said:

so you're asking why Putin invaded?

are you ignorant of what its like to be a citizen of Russia and that of a democracy?

if JT said, no more media unless it praises me! all elections will be rigged in my favour! all industries and business will be transferred to my political colleagues! i shall run the state forever! you'd prefer that kind of Canada or the admittedly not perfect system that we and most western democracies have now?

It's amazing that, over and over again, "The West" assumes they know what's best for cultures and societies they know nothing about.

Take you for instance. What makes you think you know what it's like to be a Russian citizen? Hell I lived in Central Europe and worked at a Canadian embassy over there and I don't know what it's like to be a Russian citizen. But I've known a lot of Russians. They are proud, patriotic, and indomitable people.

On the other hand, twits like you make stupid claims like this, knowing jack-sh1t about Russians or their culture.

And people wonder why the repeated interference in other parts of the world by "The West" always end leaving a trail of destruction behind.

Stupid you.

Edited February 7 by Nationalist

Hodad · February 7

16 hours ago, godzilla said:

so you're asking why Putin invaded?

are you ignorant of what its like to be a citizen of Russia and that of a democracy?

if JT said, no more media unless it praises me! all elections will be rigged in my favour! all industries and business will be transferred to my political colleagues! i shall run the state forever! you'd prefer that kind of Canada or the admittedly not perfect system that we and most western democracies have now?

So, basically if Trudeau morphed into Trump?

16 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

When the Catholic church ran the hospitals in this country, it was normal to have volunteers. Women could learn nursing on the job with less time spent in schools.

Now there's a huge education industry and a 100% paid nursing industry and we pay for it all.

So, medical care is expensive because the people who provide care are paid for their time?

Also, cotton is too damn pricey now that people don't pick it for free!

robosmith · February 7

8 hours ago, Scott75 said:

But I've never seen any evidence for this notion that Putin "aims to dominate the world".

Just listen to what Putin SAID:

Putin: Soviet collapse a 'genuine tragedy'

image.png.91f7447a07e66c133eee7b284a0e3586.png

NBC News

https://www.nbcnews.com › wbna7632057

Apr 25, 2005 — Russian President Vladimir Putin told the nation Monday that the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”

Putin rues Soviet collapse as demise of 'historical Russia'

image.png.dd738ca76e51e1bd924191bae25600c5.png

Reuters

https://www.reuters.com › world › europe › putin-rues-...

Dec 12, 2021 — President Vladimir Putin has lamented the collapse of the Soviet Union three decades ago as the demise of what he called "historical Russia".

Did Vladimir Putin call the breakup of the USSR ...

image.png.70a066374c36a126e8fe68d05920e19e.png

PolitiFact

https://www.politifact.com › mar › john-bolton › did-vl...

Mar 6, 2014 — Vladimir Putin once said, "The breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century."

Black Dog · February 7

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

It's amazing that, over and over again, "The West" assumes they know what's best for cultures and societies they know nothing about.

Take you for instance. What makes you think you know what it's like to be a Russian citizen? Hell I lived in Central Europe and worked at a Canadian embassy over there and I don't know what it's like to be a Russian citizen. But I've known a lot of Russians. They are proud, patriotic, and indomitable people.

On the other hand, twits like you make stupid claims like this, knowing jack-sh1t about Russians or their culture.

And people wonder why the repeated interference in other parts of the world by "The West" always end leaving a trail of destruction behind.

Stupid you.

Take cultural relativism but make it anti-woke and this is what you get.

Nationalist · February 7

1 minute ago, Black Dog said:

Take cultural relativism but make it anti-woke and this is what you get.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say here...

Black Dog · February 7

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I don't even understand what you're trying to say here...

Quote

Cultural relativism is the view that concepts and moral values must be understood in their own cultural context and not judged according to the standards of a different culture. It asserts the equal validity of all points of view and the relative nature of truth, which is determined by an individual or their culture.

This is essentially what you're doing here, the Russian point of view is valid to them and as such we have no right to criticize their culture and values. This is something that the left has been criticized for constantly, but you're approaching it from the other direction because you happen to align with the ultraconservative aspects of Russian culture.

Nationalist · February 7

1 minute ago, Black Dog said:

This is essentially what you're doing here, the Russian point of view is valid to them and as such we have no right to criticize their culture and values. This is something that the left has been criticized for constantly, but you're approaching it from the other direction because you happen to align with the ultraconservative aspects of Russian culture.

My "alignment" is with common sense. It has nothing to do with Liberal or Conservative.

Black Dog · February 7

3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

My "alignment" is with common sense. It has nothing to do with Liberal or Conservative.

I'm sure that's what you tell yourself, but I don't think it's true.

Common sense would not lead someone to support the unprovoked invasion of a western ally by a murderous dictator. Something else is driving it, ideology or mere contrarianism.

Edited February 7 by Black Dog