Islam is the religion of conquest, of war, of bigotry and violence, the religion of rape and slavery.

[French Patriot]

On 10/10/2025 at 1:36 PM, Michael Hardner said:

I'm not pro or against any religion. 

 

I dislike those religions that hide behind a supernatural screen so as to justify inquisitions and jihads.

I dislike all religions who discriminate against their own LGBTQ+ children.

If you are not against those immoral religions, shame on you. 

Edited October 11, 2025 by French Patriot

[French Patriot]

On 10/10/2025 at 4:06 PM, blackbird said:

Amazing how blind to facts some people are!

That is why I try to stick to moral issues against the right wing Christians that have arguments that cannot be defeated.

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

If you are not against those immoral religions, shame on you. 

I'm sympathetic to your point, but it's unclear to me what it means to be against a religion.

[French Patriot]

16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I'm sympathetic to your point, but it's unclear to me what it means to be against a religion.

I do not preach against all religion. 

I target the immoral thinking in some of the right wing religions that rely on the supernatural.

I target those who adore a genocidal God who seems to just love using mass murder on us.

Be against user of inquisitions and jihads or be seen as supporting them.

[blackbird]

On 9/23/2025 at 6:14 PM, August1991 said:

Islam is different.

The Koran is the word of God.

"

Contradictions in the Qur’an

by Matt Slick

December 12, 2008

7 min read

The Qur’an states that it is a perfect book preserved on tablets in heaven (Surah 85:21-22).  If the Qur’an is a perfect book from Allah, then there shouldn’t be any contradictions in it.  Of course, the Muslims will deny that any contradictions exist in the Qur’an, but they do.  Some of the contradictions below could be debated, but some of them are clearly contradictions.

A contradiction occurs when one statement on a subject excludes the possibility of another.  The first one here is a good example.  In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing.  In 15:26, man is created from clay.  Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since “nothing” excludes the possibility of “clay.”  Both cannot be true.

All quotes from the Qur’an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf Ali and can be found at the Qur’an online.

What was man created from: blood, clay, dust, or nothing?

“Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood,” (96:2).

“We created man from sounding clay, from mud molded into shape, (15:26).

“The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was,” (3:59).

“But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?” (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).

“He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur’an?

“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things,” (2:256).

“And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage, – that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it was best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith,” (9:3).

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful,” (9:5).

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued,” (9:29).

The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?

“And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam,” (39:12).

“When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: “O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee.” Allah said: “By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abides in its place, then shalt thou see Me.” When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses, he said: “Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe.” (7:143).

“And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; “Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam,” (2:132).

Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?

Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed,” (4:48).  Also 4:116

The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed, they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: “Show us Allah in public,” but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority,” (4:153).

Are Allah’s decrees changed or not?

“Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,” (6:34).

“The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?” (2:106).

When We substitute one revelation for another, – and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not,” (16:101).

Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?

“We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: “I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): “Ah now! – But a little while before, was thou in rebellion! – and thou didst mischief (and violence)!  This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!” (10:90-92).

Moses said, “Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!”  So, he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him,” (17:102-103).

Is wine consumption good or bad?

O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, –of Satan’s handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper,” (5:90).

(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits, and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell forever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?” (47:15).

Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed,” (83:22-25)."

Contradictions in the Qur’an - CARM

[French Patriot]

Allah is said to create all things perfect, yet Muslims say that women are created a degree lower than men. 

I live by the law of the sea where women and children are above me. 

Seems funny to me to think of a sinking Muslim ship with all the men throwing all the women into the sea.

Are their gay men higher or lower than their women?

[blackbird]

On 1/19/2025 at 9:59 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Cultural factors can't be considered by the haters, presumably because that would mean that reasonable Muslims exist.

 

You must be a "reasonable Muslim". .

[TreeBeard]

On 10/4/2025 at 8:23 AM, I am Groot said:

Can you explain why all fifty Muslim majority countries make it illegal to be gay?

Because they aren’t secular.  
 

If you ask @blackbird, a devout Christian, I bet they would like to make being gay to be illegal in Canada as well.  

Edited November 26, 2025 by TreeBeard

[I am Groot]

On 11/26/2025 at 3:47 PM, TreeBeard said:

Because they aren’t secular.  
 

If you ask @blackbird, a devout Christian, I bet they would like to make being gay to be illegal in Canada as well.  

Have you paused to consider why all these Muslim countries are NOT secular?

Edited November 28, 2025 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

On 10/10/2025 at 1:36 PM, Michael Hardner said:

I'm not pro or against any religion. 

If feel the need to demonize one religion over another, you've outed yourself.

Are you saying all religions are the same? None are better or worse than others? The Aztecs cut the living heart out of sacrificial victims for their god. Would it be wrong to demonize their religion?

[I am Groot]

On 10/5/2025 at 5:01 PM, Michael Hardner said:

4. It's your argument, which is that Islam is intolerant and that's fair but my point is it's only a few years ahead of us in some respects.

I'm going to take that as 'behind' not ahead. But ask why they're so far behind. The societies, the civilizations influenced by Islam are as old or older than many of those in the West. Why do they get a pass by saying, Well, they're just a few centuries behind us. Why are they a few centuries behind us?

On 10/5/2025 at 5:01 PM, Michael Hardner said:

5.  To some degree it has and it will, I believe.  The more open economies that are in Muslim countries are moving towards more progress than say Afghanistan.

What open economies? Islam is, as has been mentioned before, not merely a religion but an almost complete guide to government and law. Among its laws, among the things that keep the Muslim world backward, are rules that, for example, ban the paying of interest on loans. This has meant that the banking sectors in Muslim countries are tiny and weak (which the far left loves). To exist at all, they need to find ways to get around this rule in some way. In addition, large companies are frowned upon because getting money without labour is haram (another reason the Marxists love Islam). So once again, this holds back businesses from expanding. 

On 10/5/2025 at 5:01 PM, Michael Hardner said:

7.  How are they almost all poorer as well ?

See my answer aboce.

On 10/5/2025 at 5:01 PM, Michael Hardner said:

8. I'm glad you said economically.  We only got Women's suffrage about 100 years ago so that's an example.  There are lots of ways to compare, though.  I don't know if the number of years ahead could ever be agreed on.

Yes, but what progress has been made in the Muslim world? If you look back on pictures of Muslim women fifty years ago, they were freer than they are today. Much of the Muslim world has gotten more repressive towards women, not less.

On 10/5/2025 at 5:01 PM, Michael Hardner said:

I'm not going to argue that Islamic countries are progressive but Muslims aren't "evil" or fundamentally different from other human beings.  They're capable of being progressive and living in a non-religious Western country and they lose their religion at much the same rate as others.

The difference about Islam is it's a predatory religion. It calls upon its followers all through its holy books to denounce and destroy all other religions and conquer all societies that do not submit to Islam. And that has been its history since inception. It didn't stop attacking non-Muslim countries around it until its own backwardness, brought about by the rejection of science, philosophy, and technology, caused it to stagnate and left others more powerful than them. 

The West has had a lot of newcomers over the last generation or two. The only group from which we repeatedly see terrorist acts and crowds of people with their leaders denouncing the West and vowing to take over are Muslims.

[TreeBeard]

On 11/28/2025 at 6:00 AM, I am Groot said:

Have you paused to consider why all these Muslim countries are NOT secular?

What difference would that make to what I said?

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

What difference would that make to what I said?

You might want to ask why someone wants to single out one factor, namely religion, as the reason people are left behind and backwards. Nothing to do with military, economic storyline. 

 

It's like when a Muslim commits a crime, they want to associate that to the religion because it's a key marker of difference to them. 

 

If a Christian commits a crime, it's like... Man with brown hair commits crime... I.E. The religion of the perpetrator is meaningless because he's like us.

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

What difference would that make to what I said?

They're not secular because Islam does not allow for secular government. If you are an observant Muslim, you want an Islamic government run under Sharia law.

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

You might want to ask why someone wants to single out one factor, namely religion, as the reason people are left behind and backwards. Nothing to do with military, economic storyline. 

Fifty countries spread across the Earth. Where are the thriving, economic powerhouses or the ones with advanced technology among them? There aren't any. Even the ones that are rich are rich because Westerners found oil, dug the wells, put in the machinery, and operate it to this day. They have fancy buildings designed by Western architects and engineers, and largely built with Indian and Filipino labour. How long has Saudi Arabia been filthy rich? They still have to train their doctors in the West. 

Fifty countries spread across the world, and none of them are advanced economically, technologically, socially, or scientifically, and you insist this is just a coincidence somehow. I'm just singling out a single cause. Maybe you'd like to find me another cause common to all those countries.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's like when a Muslim commits a crime, they want to associate that to the religion because it's a key marker of difference to them. 

If a Christian commits a crime, it's like... Man with brown hair commits crime... I.E. The religion of the perpetrator is meaningless because he's like us.

Oh, bullshit. Muslims commit a ton of crimes in Canada, and it doesn't get blamed on Islam. The crimes that get blamed on Islam are the ones like honor killing, or terrorism, where the Muslim shouts "Allahu Akhbar!" Or sometimes, where there is a pattern where a hugely disproportionate amount of Muslims are committing sex crimes, say, because we know that the Quran gives them permission to attack women who aren't muslims.

 

Edited November 29, 2025 by I am Groot

[User]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You might want to ask why someone wants to single out one factor, namely religion, as the reason people are left behind and backwards. Nothing to do with military, economic storyline. 

Well, when it comes to Sharia law, being Muslim has 100% of everything to do with that... 

[ironstone]

For anyone that's interested, this was quite a debate, 'Islam is a religion of peace'.

 

[I am Groot]

On 12/14/2025 at 1:30 PM, ironstone said:

For anyone that's interested, this was quite a debate, 'Islam is a religion of peace'.

 

The idea that Islam is the religion of peace is a joke. It has been exceptionally violent from its inception. Muhamed spread his cult by the sword, invading one region after another, forcing people to convert, flee, or die. The only time in its history when it wasn't making war on its neighbors was when it couldn't. Much of the region we know as the Middle East was Christian before Muslim invaders arrived, and just like Muhamed, everyone there had to either convert or die. The Muslim invasions of northern India killed tens of millions over a number of centuries, leaving northern India (now Pakistan and Bangladesh) largely Muslim. It attempted to invade Europe multiple times, and only vailant efforts kept it out.

Today, it is murdering Christians in Egypt, in Lebanon, in Nigeria and Uganda and Chad, among other places. And with Muslims allowed into the West by the descendants of those who fought and died to keep them out, they're raping and murdering Christians there, too.

[John Johnston]

A little context.

https://www.forbes5.pitt.edu/article/religion-ideology-conquest

[CITIZEN_2015]

You don't have to go far in history to see what Islamists are capable of. Just last month when Iranians came out on streets asking for removal of Islamists from power and a non-islamic state in their millions, they (islamic clergy, islamists leaders) order a massacre of unarmed civilians. 

If you bring in or inject cancer cells to your body, it will spread and kill the entire body. 

[I am Groot]

A former Muslim raised in Gaza warns that the West's underestanding of just how fanatical these people are is disturbingly wrong.

 

As a boy in Khan Younis, Shachar’s earliest lessons about Jews came from his own grandfather. The older man would invite Jewish visitors for coffee and bread, yet in a different breath urged his grandson to “free the land” one day, by killing Jews.

 

“I said to myself, ‘how can it be? On one side, he invites them for food and drink, and on the other, he says to kill them.’ From a young age I understood something is wrong.”

 

His neighbours included names that would later become synonymous with terror: Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Deif and bombmaker Yahya Ayyash. “I knew them well,” he recalled, describing them as “community faces” alongside others from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah and the PLO. He knew that some neighbours — and his own brothers — had killed Israelis.

 

In the open market, he says he once saw Sinwar sever the head of a Palestinian accused of collaborating with Israel, amid cheering onlookers. Another time, he and his mother found a head in the market street. “They said he was suspected of cooperating with Israel,” he noted. Bystanders were nonchalant, as he remembers it.

 

 

S

https://nationalpost.com/news/youll-see-chaos-gazan-born-jewish-convert-warns-west-of-islamist-ideology

[I am Groot]

Dan Burmawi

In Islam, Allah is a projection of Muhammad’s own will, a tribal warlord sanctified in the heavens. The god of Islam is not a transcendent being who calls men to rise above their nature, he is a divine version of everything man is at his worst: lustful, possessive, vengeful, violent, and endlessly deceitful.

He rewards obedience not with his presence but with sex, conquest, and domination. His “paradise” is a brothel in the sky. His justice is rooted in favoritism and terror. His love is conditional, his mercy arbitrary, and his threats eternal. He speaks more of punishment than peace, more of submission than salvation. His scripture glorifies deception (“Allah is the best of deceivers”), sanctions slavery, blesses violence, and encourages self-destruction in the name of glory.

Yet, this god demands to be worshipped, not understood. Feared, not known. You do not reason with him. You do not question him. You submit. Muhammad’s god serves one ultimate purpose: to reflect and empower Muhammad’s own desires, political, sexual, and military. Every “revelation” comes conveniently in step with his personal ambitions: justifying his marriages, excusing his violence, protecting his ego, or consolidating his control.

This is not a God who transforms the human heart. This is a god who amplifies its worst instincts. T

he God of Scripture descends in humility, entering history not to conquer empires, but to conquer sin and death. He calls His followers to love their enemies, to forgive the undeserving, to serve without reward. He values the broken, restores the fallen, and grants dignity to the outcast. He invites humanity to walk with Him, not just kneel before Him.

The god of Muhammad offers none of this. He demands fear. He demands allegiance. He demands death to those who will not conform. He is not Father, he is Master, his followers are not children, they are tools, martyrs, and soldiers. The result of this theology is a civilization shaped not by the imitation of God, but by the deification of a man.

The biblical God is the standard we rise to meet. The Islamic god is the mirror that justifies who we already are. One calls man upward. The other pulls him downward, wrapping his worst instincts in religious language and calling it righteousness.

[John Stone]

I'd be hesitant to argue with Islamic fanatics.............. like arguing with a drunk. 

Islam effortlessly crosses borders, language barriers. 

The problem with Islam is not so much the Islamic belief - but the silence in condemning terrorist acts conducted under the  flag of Islam.

 

[Michael Hardner]

37 minutes ago, John Stone said:

 

The problem with Islam is not so much the Islamic belief - but the silence in condemning terrorist acts conducted under the  flag of Islam.

 

I was on this board in the early 2000s where I first saw this message.  I would respond with cites from various Islamic groups condemning terrorism but it didn't matter, people still posited this point.

Let's be honest: the reason to criticize an entire culture and to label them as 'bad' is to feel good about oneself, ie vanity.

If Islamic forces win, it's because they're brutal and violent.  If Western ones do, it's because they're resourceful, scientifically based, advanced...

It's one of the most onanistic discussion themes on this board... There's no forward progress on these.

Even the Immigration and Climate Change themes are better at producing interesting momentum.

[John Stone]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I was on this board in the early 2000s where I first saw this message.  I would respond with cites from various Islamic groups condemning terrorism but it didn't matter, people still posited this point.

Let's be honest: the reason to criticize an entire culture and to label them as 'bad' is to feel good about oneself, ie vanity.

If Islamic forces win, it's because they're brutal and violent.  If Western ones do, it's because they're resourceful, scientifically based, advanced...

It's one of the most onanistic discussion themes on this board... There's no forward progress on these.

Even the Immigration and Climate Change themes are better at producing interesting momentum.

Yeah, lots of contradictions ..........however.......why did so many inhabitants of the long Muslim "street," stretching from Morocco to Indonesia, appear to be overjoyed by what Osama bin Laden's henchmen had accomplished?

For that matter, why were certain Islamic jurists in Pakistan issuing fatwas directing Muslims to fight American infidels if they attacked Afghanistan? And why do firebrand clerics throughout the Islamic world continue to issue equally inflammatory decrees? Most disturbing, some of those same voices of moderation had occasionally expressed their approval of Islamic groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah that engage in terrorism.

Remind me where Osama was finally captured / tried/ executed ........... years after the attack?

I am not so ignorant as to accuse entire Islam of supporting  Islamic Terrorism ........... just as I am not so ignorant as to accuse every German of being a Nazi sympathizer.  However in their denunciation I believe their condemnation could be more .................. forceful? 

Exhibit A might be the support within the Continental U.S.  for Hamas (Oct 7th)  in carrying out their act of war. 

Just a few, u say?

I say entire Countries! 

Edited February 22 by John Stone