rabble.ca train wreck

[August1991]

I occasionally read posts on rabble.ca - the debate is often informed and interesting. So, I was surprised to learn that many of the users are now boycotting the site because a moderator was fired.

Furthermore, these many users have created another forum on a different website and it appears as if rabble.ca will be reborn elsewhere, under different management.

I have no opinion one way or the other about this. But I can't fail to note something critical in what has happened. The rabble.ca posters had an alternative; they had the possibility of going elsewhere. They had a choice.

Too often, governments limit people's choices. From healthcare, to education to liquor sales to postal service, government involvement means fewer choices, or no choice at all.

It is ironic that rabble posters have so obviously benefited from the freedom to choose.

[Black Dog]

I have no opinion one way or the other about this. But I can't fail to note something critical in what has happened. The rabble.ca posters had an alternative; they had the possibility of going elsewhere. They had a choice.

Too often, governments limit people's choices. From healthcare, to education to liquor sales to postal service, government involvement means fewer choices, or no choice at all.

It is ironic that rabble posters have so obviously benefited from the freedom to choose.

Why? Are all babblers totalitarians?

[Greg]

I too was abit surprised at the backlash that has occurred in their forums. The forums seem to have been overtaken by a small group of individuals who disagree with the firing.

It also appears that the moderators are doing nothing to stop the protest from poisoning the other discussions taking place.

I'm not familiar with the specifics of the firing issue, so I won't comment on whether it was right or wrong. I think it's great that people have options (in this case it was moving to a different forum), however, I don't agree with the trolling and disruption some of the posters have engaged in.

Dissent is perfectly acceptable, but the second it become destructive to the rest of the community it should be dealt with quickly.

My 2 cents,

[Cameron]

I'm not a big fan of that site. The first time I went there, I was disgusted with the "neo"-left of some members. I hope it collapses in on itself.

Another nail in the coffin for rabble from me, is when I visited earlier and saw a rabble sponsored "Get rid of Harper Fast" ad at the top.

So long losers.

Greg I'm glad to keep this forum clean.

[Black Dog]

I too was abit surprised at the backlash that has occurred in their forums. The forums seem to have been overtaken by a small group of individuals who disagree with the firing.

There's at least 190 babble regulars (give or take) signed up on the "strike" forum. I don't know if it's a small group, but most of the people heading up the strike are posters who were there before I even joined: the strikers are the core membership.

And the issue, as I understand it, isn't that a respected moderator got fired but the manner in which she was fired.

I don't have a dog in that fight, so to speak, but I do think there are some very legitimate questions and overall, I hink the response has, for the most part, been quite progressive.

[shoop]

Hmmm, weren't you the one who put this forum under 'lockdown'???

Dissent is perfectly acceptable, but the second it become destructive to the rest of the community it should be dealt with quickly.

My 2 cents,

[Spike22]

Rabble.ca is babble a lot of left wing jiberish. Farewell may it never see the pixels of another monitor again.

[scribblet]

I went over there and had a look, there are always two sides to the issue, and from what I've read it looks like the moderator who was fired, didn't fulfill her obligations. I guess it wasn't handled very well, but the moderator lives in Halifax so it would be kind of hard to talk to her in person I guess.

I wonder too, if management was unhappy with the double standards on that site. They banned anyone with even a very moderate conservative opinion, but the worst was that they allowed a few posters to stalk, swear and harass them. Some of what I read was downright scary; for those who thought Stephen Harper and the conservatives were scary, they should go back and read some of the hate and intolerance from people there who were supposed to be 'progressive'.

However, they have excercised their options and taken their business somewhere else, but do they really have the right to completely shut down the babble forum and not allow others to post, it will be interesting to see what happens.

[Nocrap]

I went over there and had a look, there are always two sides to the issue, and from what I've read it looks like the moderator who was fired, didn't fulfill her obligations. I guess it wasn't handled very well, but the moderator lives in Halifax so it would be kind of hard to talk to her in person I guess.

I wonder too, if management was unhappy with the double standards on that site. They banned anyone with even a very moderate conservative opinion, but the worst was that they allowed a few posters to stalk, swear and harass them. Some of what I read was downright scary; for those who thought Stephen Harper and the conservatives were scary, they should go back and read some of the hate and intolerance from people there who were supposed to be 'progressive'.

However, they have excercised their options and taken their business somewhere else, but do they really have the right to completely shut down the babble forum and not allow others to post, it will be interesting to see what happens.

I don't agree with the trolling and disruption some of the posters have engaged in

I've never been to the site but could someone please tell me what 'trolling' is? I'm relatively new to the whole forum concept, but enjoy a good debate. Sounds like 'Rabble' was not a good place to go.

[Greg]

Hmmm, weren't you the one who put this forum under 'lockdown'???

Ya, what's your point?

When problems arise I try to deal with them quickly. The lockdown (if you could call it that) was my attempt to quell the increasing use of insults and destructive behaviour that was occuring amonst certain members.

And from the look of things around here lately, I think it worked.

I've never been to the site but could someone please tell me what 'trolling' is?

Wikipedia Definition of a Internet Troll

[Guest Warwick Green]

Rabble.ca is babble a lot of left wing jiberish. Farewell may it never see the pixels of another monitor again.

Losing babble would be no loss to the community. They are very ideological and the moment you sway away from their concept of the contemporary wisdom you are banned. No discussion is allowed on gay marriage, as an example.

[fellowtraveller]

I've posted there occasionally, and can confirm that the regular do not like anything that varies from the NDP/hardcore union line. On the other hand, the mods never warned me for any of the more provocative things I said. Their board suffers from a lack of disparity, not much interesting about everybody agreeing about everything.

Does anybody know where their new site can be found?

[Drea]

I was banned from Rabble for being too right wing.

I didn't agree that teens as young as 14 should be learning what a "tossed salad" or a "rainbow party" is.

They got mad at me when I posted a bunch of jobs (unskilled labour jobs) from the Province newspaper on the "Squeegie kids to form union" thread.

I won't go back, nor will I go to their "new" board.

This is by far a much more diverse forum.

Thanks Greg!

[uOttawaMan]

e-drama

[Black Dog]

I wonder too, if management was unhappy with the double standards on that site. They banned anyone with even a very moderate conservative opinion, but the worst was that they allowed a few posters to stalk, swear and harass them

It's funny to read people whining about getting banned from babble, as if they have a god-given right to spew whatever they want wherever they want. Like this board, babble has a clear policy on what behaviours are acceptable and unacceptable. Unlike this board, babble is quite explicit in its ideological leanings (there are similar boards from the conservative side of the spectrum with even more rigorous enforcement of their standards of idealogical conformity). So if you are a rabid right winger looking to wage war on progressive ideas, you won't last long there. But there' remains a large contingent of moderate conservatives that are regular posters and part of the babble "community".

[Michael Hardner]

I was/am a member of Rabble and FreeDominion. They are left/right bookends to each other, with most posters of a like minded. The diversity at MapleLeaf is its strength.

I would much rather read well considered points from someone from a different political perspective than random drivellings from somebody who voted the same way I did. This board will thrive as long as we continue to have a strong and fair moderator.

These boards will save democracy - BELIEVE IT.

[Guest Warwick Green]

I've posted there occasionally, and can confirm that the regular do not like anything that varies from the NDP/hardcore union line. On the other hand, the mods never warned me for any of the more provocative things I said. Their board suffers from a lack of disparity, not much interesting about everybody agreeing about everything.

Does anybody know where their new site can be found?

http://babblestrike.lbprojects.com/index.php

[southerncomfort]

I wonder too, if management was unhappy with the double standards on that site. They banned anyone with even a very moderate conservative opinion, but the worst was that they allowed a few posters to stalk, swear and harass them

It's funny to read people whining about getting banned from babble, as if they have a god-given right to spew whatever they want wherever they want. Like this board, babble has a clear policy on what behaviours are acceptable and unacceptable. Unlike this board, babble is quite explicit in its ideological leanings (there are similar boards from the conservative side of the spectrum with even more rigorous enforcement of their standards of idealogical conformity). So if you are a rabid right winger looking to wage war on progressive ideas, you won't last long there. But there' remains a large contingent of moderate conservatives that are regular posters and part of the babble "community".

Guess it depends on what you think is spew, and a what a rabid right winger is,they sure had a double standard there, hypocrites most of them. They allowed ad homenims, foul language and so on, I saw very moderately centred people get banned and sworn at for B all. Anyone new not confirming to their rabid little world was viciously attacked. Is that what the NDP represents, hope not, they sure werent my idea of being progressive whatever thats supposed to mean these days.

[Black Dog]

Guess it depends on what you think is spew, and a what a rabid right winger is,they sure had a double standard there, hypocrites most of them. They allowed ad homenims, foul language and so on, I saw very moderately centred people get banned and sworn at for B all. Anyone new not confirming to their rabid little world was viciously attacked. Is that what the NDP represents, hope not, they sure werent my idea of being progressive whatever thats supposed to mean these days.

It's not what I think is spew, it's what the proprieters of the site think. Look: forums like babble and this one are not free-for-alls, they are privately operated web sites, which gives whoever operates them the right to dictate what they consider acceptable behaviour. For instance, here, calling somebody a "motherf**king c**ksucker" would probably get you banned, whereas on babble, such an epitheth would lead to a lengthy discussion over whether the term "motherf**king c**ksucker" is homophobic and misogynist. I'm not gonna quibble over the different standards, but I will abide by them. As for "anyone new" being "viciously attacked", well, if you went into someone's house and started questioning their decorating choices, cooking abilities and spouse's physical apperance, you'd probably get the boot. So why would anyone think they could go to an unabashedly left wing, pro-feminist, pro-gay rights, pro-union, NDP-friendly forum and slag off any of the above with impunity? Also: methinks you overstate things. I've been there a while and rarely is a poster banned who didn't violate the clearly defined parameters of board behaviour. Finally, if you think intolerance for contrary viewpoints, incivility and viciousness are hallmarks of the left, well, you've never been to Free Dominion.

[southerncomfort]

Guess it depends on what you think is spew, and a what a rabid right winger is,they sure had a double standard there, hypocrites most of them. They allowed ad homenims, foul language and so on, I saw very moderately centred people get banned and sworn at for B all. Anyone new not confirming to their rabid little world was viciously attacked. Is that what the NDP represents, hope not, they sure werent my idea of being progressive whatever thats supposed to mean these days.

It's not what I think is spew, it's what the proprieters of the site think. Look: forums like babble and this one are not free-for-alls, they are privately operated web sites, which gives whoever operates them the right to dictate what they consider acceptable behaviour. For instance, here, calling somebody a "motherf**king c**ksucker" would probably get you banned, whereas on babble, such an epitheth would lead to a lengthy discussion over whether the term "motherf**king c**ksucker" is homophobic and misogynist. I'm not gonna quibble over the different standards, but I will abide by them. As for "anyone new" being "viciously attacked", well, if you went into someone's house and started questioning their decorating choices, cooking abilities and spouse's physical apperance, you'd probably get the boot. So why would anyone think they could go to an unabashedly left wing, pro-feminist, pro-gay rights, pro-union, NDP-friendly forum and slag off any of the above with impunity? Also: methinks you overstate things. I've been there a while and rarely is a poster banned who didn't violate the clearly defined parameters of board behaviour. Finally, if you think intolerance for contrary viewpoints, incivility and viciousness are hallmarks of the left, well, you've never been to Free Dominion.

I do read on there only, but its no where near as bad as what I saw on rabble at time, they do allow more lattitude and rarely swear. The words you mentioned are used on a regular basis on rabble to anyone they consider centre or centre right.

[Black Dog]

I do read on there only, but its no where near as bad as what I saw on rabble at time, they do allow more lattitude and rarely swear. The words you mentioned are used on a regular basis on rabble to anyone they consider centre or centre right.

And I'd rather be called every single expletive under the sun than deal with the rascist, homophobic garbage that flourishes at FD, so I guess it's simply a matter of different strokes for different folks. And here's the best part: I'll stick with babble (if it ever gets back on it's feet), you can stick with F.D. and everyone's happy.

Does anyone else find this web forum discussion of another web forum, a discussion which encompasses two other web forums, to be a tad, I dunno, po-mo? No?

[Guest Warwick Green]

Finally, if you think intolerance for contrary viewpoints, incivility and viciousness are hallmarks of the left, well, you've never been to Free Dominion.

I don't agree. I participated on both babble and FD and Audra immediately canned you if you questioned the rabid left ideology. Sure you were attacked in FD by other posters if you were pro-abortion or pro-SSM but you didn't get banned. I left FD because of a lack of balance in that rarely did you get a good debate going on political issues since the forum is so dominated by the right. It was only a small cadre of the real droolers who were vicious and far less so than you found on babble.

[August1991]

I have no opinion one way or the other about this. But I can't fail to note something critical in what has happened. The rabble.ca posters had an alternative; they had the possibility of going elsewhere. They had a choice.

Too often, governments limit people's choices. From healthcare, to education to liquor sales to postal service, government involvement means fewer choices, or no choice at all.

It is ironic that rabble posters have so obviously benefited from the freedom to choose.

Why? Are all babblers totalitarians?

I suppose totalitarianism (by definition) is a white or black thing. But Leftist ideas of government usually come in shades of grey. Most Leftists want more government and that generally limits choices.

Example? State-subsidized day care.

----

I generally feel that posters should be free to post what they think. Free speech is good because one never knows where or how a new idea will begin.

I understand this opinion:

... if you went into someone's house and started questioning their decorating choices, cooking abilities and spouse's physical apperance, you'd probably get the boot.

...except wandering into a discussion forum is not like going into someone's home.

It's the Internet - not a home. For starters, everything posted here is recorded for posterity. If you recorded conversations in your home, you'd be considered a kook.

Nevertheless, despite my preference for free speech, experience on this forum and Greg's interventions and explanations have brought me around to the idea that banning some posters is necessary.

The rabble moderator banned me (join the club!) without any warning. I have suggested to Greg that, whatever criteria he uses in deciding to ban, up to and including random urges, he warn any poster beforehand.

I was/am a member of Rabble and FreeDominion. They are left/right bookends to each other, with most posters of a like minded. The diversity at MapleLeaf is its strength.

I completely agree.

This is a small community but we are diverse, and no one feels like a voice in the wilderness. There's usually at least one other poster who will defend a point of view or put in a sympathetic word - despite the occasional general onslaught against some posters. I think we may have too many rightwingers, and I regret when leftists leave. On social and religious issues, we have a good mix. I wish we had more francophones here (and I will probably invite some more from a French-language forum).

IMV, rabble is (was?) an echo-chamber and posters at FreeDominion have a snide, know-it-all attitude towards anyone remotely "progressive". In short, neither place allows free discussion. I have always felt absolutely free to state my opinion here. That is a wonderful feeling.

These boards will save democracy - BELIEVE IT.

Michael, I'll assume you were joking. God help us all if democracy is so fragile as to need Internet forums. Yet, these forums (fora?) are cutting edge. In a country such as Canada, with a sparse population, the Internet affords a chance to meet and talk.

This is particularly important for people under 20. I am truly jealous that I didn't have the chance to participate in a forum such as this when I was young. It would have changed my life.

Finally, as to this rabble.ca car crash (the subject of this thread):

e-drama

Bang on.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, I'll assume you were joking. God help us all if democracy is so fragile as to need Internet forums. Yet, these forums (fora?) are cutting edge. In a country such as Canada, with a sparse population, the Internet affords a chance to meet and talk.

Exactly. Discussion is the essence of democratic health, and mass media homogenizes political discussion.

This is particularly important for people under 20. I am truly jealous that I didn't have the chance to participate in a forum such as this when I was young. It would have changed my life.

It changed mine as I entered middle age, and it shows no signs of abating. Television news, on the other hand is waning and transforming itself into entertainment.

I don't know how the new media will change democracy but it will eventually have a big effect.

[scribblet]

It's not what I think is spew, it's what the proprieters of the site think. Look: forums like babble and this one are not free-for-alls, they are privately operated web sites, which gives whoever operates them the right to dictate what they consider acceptable behaviour. For instance, here, calling somebody a "motherf**king c**ksucker" would probably get you banned, whereas on babble, such an epitheth would lead to a lengthy discussion over whether the term "motherf**king c**ksucker" is homophobic and misogynist. I'm not gonna quibble over the different standards, but I will abide by them. As for "anyone new" being "viciously attacked", well, if you went into someone's house and started questioning their decorating choices, cooking abilities and spouse's physical apperance, you'd probably get the boot. So why would anyone think they could go to an unabashedly left wing, pro-feminist, pro-gay rights, pro-union, NDP-friendly forum and slag off any of the above with impunity? Also: methinks you overstate things. I've been there a while and rarely is a poster banned who didn't violate the clearly defined parameters of board behaviour. Finally, if you think intolerance for contrary viewpoints, incivility and viciousness are hallmarks of the left, well, you've never been to Free Dominion.

Hmm, its not really like walking into someone's home as it is a public discussion group, the door 's open, anyone can read. If they really wanted to keep it private they could charge a subscription fee, I'm sure right wingers or middle ground people wouldn't pony up to debate them. I did have some links saved but can't find them at the moment, of where people were sworn at etc. for expressing a very mild opinion, no slagging etc. no breaking of rules.

However, it will be interesting to see if management can get get it going again.