NAME REMOVED Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 (edited) The above topic is by definition, false and misleading. Expert Comment: This is no proxy war - Russia really invaded Ukraine In the year since, I have reviewed evidence for the Russian action, such as exists. With hindsight, what seemed like the ramblings of madmen, which appeared before the invasion, seem remarkably prescient. And they can now be perceived as predictors of the invasion – although absolutely not excuses for it. Any ‘excuse’ for the Russian attack on Ukraine – because it felt threatened – should be viewed with the lens of history. That was the same reason given by Hitler, for the invasion of half of Europe Any ‘excuse’ for the Russian attack on Ukraine – because it felt threatened – should be viewed with the lens of history. That was the same reason given by Hitler, for the invasion of half of Europe. He was only protecting the Germans in the Sudetenland. Austrians speak German, anyway. He was only defending against the Polish attack on the radio transmitter in Gleiwitz… And the suggestion Ukraine should accept ‘terms’ – and Putin be allowed to walk away with a fifth of the country, having laid waste to cities with clear evidence of war crimes – can be viewed in the same way. Imagine, if the Allies had sued for peace in 1943, and agreed Hitler should be allowed to keep what he had conquered to 'stop the killing'. Plus, Ukrainians will never accept to surrender and it is they who have the agency in this war; they decide. This is no proxy war, with NATO and the Soviets pitched against each other behind the scenes in the remote tropics as happened during the Cold War or as is currently happening in Yemen, where different Middle East factions fund the fighting done by others. This is a real war. Russia really invaded Ukraine and it really has bombed real civilians, real hospitals and real infrastructure. Between a third to half a million people have already been killed or maimed, in just 12 months. There is nothing proxy about it for either side. This is no proxy war, with NATO and the Soviets pitched against each other behind the scenes...This is a real war. Russia really invaded Ukraine and it really has bombed real civilians, real hospitals and real infrastructure To return to the evidence, three months before the invasion, one of Putin’s longest-standing and closest advisers, Vladislav Surkov, former deputy prime minister, dark celebrity, sometime playwright and novelist, wrote a bizarre article which he published in an online current affairs magazine. It was strange commentary on the second law of thermodynamics, as it applies to nation states. Essentially, Surkov, who has no current official role, used Physics to claim countries have to deal with internal ‘tensions’ through external ‘expansion’, like a gas escaping a closed chamber – ie through war. In doing so, they would transfer internal entropy – disorder and chaos - beyond the nation’s borders. It seemed at the time to be mad ramblings. He repeated this, though, just nine days before the invasion in a further article, talking about how it was necessary to expand outwards, 'For Russia, constant expansion is not just one of the ideas, but the true existential of our historical existence. Russia will expand not because it is good, and not because it is bad, but because it is physics.' Now, the ‘fog of war’ has actually made clear these comments were writing on the wall. Another clear indication of intent came from Putin himself, all the way back in 2016. When presenting a national prize for Geography [he is Chairman of the Russian Geographical Society], he asked one of the youngest award winners to say where Russia’s borders end. The young boy began to answer, when Putin interrupted him with a smile and said, ‘Russia’s borders never end.’ The audience was uncertain whether to laugh or applaud. It was safest to do the latter. A third piece of evidence I have seen is a Russian post-invasion plan – Action plan: to create a system of control over economic and political processes in Ukraine – setting out a rough five page-long sketch of how it was going to happen. The strangest thing about the plan is how insubstantial and very basic it was. Both the Kremlin’s political and military plans have been proved horribly wrong, of course, since the invasion did not go according to plan and now something over 90% of the Russian army is in Ukraine. What is strange, though, is that it is all about controlling the territory and very little about assets. The invasion was not about seizing valuable resources or material gains. There are none left when the Russians reach them. It is more about ephemeral prestige, power, control, even more than a land grab. You do not bomb the largest steel mills to smithereens in order to obtain them. The invasion was not about seizing valuable resources or material gains. There are none left when the Russians reach them. It is more about ephemeral prestige, power, control...You do not bomb the largest steel mills to smithereens in order to obtain them Some claim Russia was goaded into acting by the threat of NATO expansion. But Putin himself said in 2004 that 'Russia has no concerns about the expansion of NATO from the standpoint of ensuring security'. Russia, after all, has a massive nuclear arsenal and has no reason to fear any adversary. What is the purpose of nuclear weapons then? In addition, several countries bordering Russia, including Finland and the Baltic States are already entering the alliance, with not a murmur from Moscow. Plus, with modern hi-tech weapons, no country needs actually to border another, for there to be a threat – as Britain has discovered from the threats of Russian TV pundits, who delight in telling us how London could be wiped out in ten minutes. So where does the war go from here? History tells us, you cannot appease a dictator. History also tells us Russia will not abide by an agreement. In 1994, Ukraine handed over its – third largest – nuclear weapons arsenal to Russia (as a long-term nuclear power) in exchange for security assurances from the US, the UK and…er Russia. So where does the war go from here? History tells us, you cannot appease a dictator. History also tells us Russia will not abide by an agreement...Fake pacifists who call for Ukraine to...‘come to terms’ with Russia are, in effect, aiding and abetting the criminal invasion of a sovereign nation and suggesting war criminals go unpunished Fake pacifists who call for Ukraine to sue for peace, or ‘come to terms’ with Russia, are in effect aiding and abetting the criminal invasion of a sovereign nation and suggesting war criminals go unpunished. But, even were that to happen, there would be no reason for Russia to obey any conditions laid down in a deal and the evidence suggests quite the opposite. After all, who will be there to force the Kremlin to live up to the letter of the law? The war can end in two ways. Western weapons can allow Ukraine to threaten Russia’s continuing war effort to such an extent that Putin is replaced as the leader – effectively a coup. The alternative would be for Putin to declare ‘victory’ now, as it is, and step down quietly, leaving a new administration to negotiate peace. source; https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2023-02-21-expert-comment-no-proxy-war-russia-really-invaded-ukraine Edited November 11, 2024 by DUI_Offender 1 Quote
NAME REMOVED Posted November 11, 2024 Author Report Posted November 11, 2024 Examples of Proxy Wars in modern history: Korean War (1950-53) Combatant 1 Support: China Soviet Union The Iron Curtain (eastern Europe) Combatant 2 support: United States NATO Countries United Nations ----- Second Indochina War (Vietnam War) Combatant 1 Support: China Soviet Union North Korea Combatant 2 Support: United States South Korea Australia Thailand Philippians Laos Cambodia ----- Lebanese Civil War Combatant 1 Support: Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) Iraq Libya Algeria Iran Hezbollah Combatant 2 Support: Israel United States France ----- Quote
gatomontes99 Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 We have mercenaries in Ukraine, we've given Ukraine weapons, we've given Ukraine money, we've shared Intelligenxe with Ukraine. In Korea, we were there fighting Russia. In Ukraine, Russia is there fight us. Quote The Rules for Liberal tactics: If they can't refute the content, attack the source. If they can't refute the content, attack the poster. If 1 and 2 fail, pretend it never happened. Everyone you disagree with is Hitler. A word is defined by the emotion it elicits and not the actual definition. If they are wrong, blame the opponent. If a liberal policy didn't work, it's a conservatives fault and vice versa. If all else fails, just be angry.
NAME REMOVED Posted November 11, 2024 Author Report Posted November 11, 2024 1 hour ago, gatomontes99 said: We have mercenaries in Ukraine, we've given Ukraine weapons, we've given Ukraine money, we've shared Intelligenxe with Ukraine. In Korea, we were there fighting Russia. In Ukraine, Russia is there fight us. Please elaborate... 1 Quote
NAME REMOVED Posted November 11, 2024 Author Report Posted November 11, 2024 1 hour ago, gatomontes99 said: We have mercenaries in Ukraine, we've given Ukraine weapons, we've given Ukraine money, we've shared Intelligenxe with Ukraine. In Korea, we were there fighting Russia. In Ukraine, Russia is there fight us. In Korea, the fight was between two different powers, who were fighting an ideological war, between Democracy and Communism. Korea just happened to be there. It ended up in an Armistice in 1953, when the country was divided into North and South districts (like Germany). In Ukraine, Russia invaded to conquer the country. There was no battle between proxies. It was one small nation trying to defend itself against a larger nation (Russia). Western countries gave aid to Ukraine to fight off the belligerents. That, in itself, is not a proxy war. references: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/is-the-war-in-ukraine-a-proxy-conflict https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2023/01/ukraine-proxy-war-russia-vladimir-putin-nato https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2023-08-22/ukraine-its-not-us-proxy-war Quote
robosmith Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 (edited) 4 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: In Korea, the fight was between two different powers, who were fighting an ideological war, between Democracy and Communism. Korea just happened to be there. It ended up in an Armistice in 1953, when the country was divided into North and South districts (like Germany). In Ukraine, Russia invaded to conquer the country. There was no battle between proxies. It was one small nation trying to defend itself against a larger nation (Russia). Western countries gave aid to Ukraine to fight off the belligerents. That, in itself, is not a proxy war. references: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/is-the-war-in-ukraine-a-proxy-conflict https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2023/01/ukraine-proxy-war-russia-vladimir-putin-nato https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2023-08-22/ukraine-its-not-us-proxy-war Of course it's not a proxy war. Russia invaded to STEAL RESOURCES. The huge gas reserves and fertile farmland that frigid Russia desperately needs, and kleptocrat Putin wants to OWN. Edited November 11, 2024 by robosmith 1 Quote
CdnFox Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 Your definition of proxy war seems to indicate that both sides have to be supported by a third party. That has never been the definition of a proxy war. Proxy war | Definition, History, Examples, & Risks | Britannica proxy war, a military conflict in which one or more third parties directly or indirectly support one or more state or nonstate combatants in an effort to influence the conflict’s outcome and thereby to advance their own strategic interests or to undermine those of their opponents. It should also be noted that who started the war makes no difference as to whether or not currently it is a proxy war. So the whole who invaded who thing isn't relevant. Using the traditional definition above it would be very hard to argue that this is not a proxy war at this point. NATO is directly supporting one state's Combatants in an effort to influence the conflicts outcome and thereby advanced its own strategic interests. Ergo, proxy war. Proxy wars are not inherently evil or anything. In this case a proxy war is largely the only option to help prevent escalation. So it's not like it's automatically bad if it's a proxy war or something. But right now NATO is for its own reasons supporting the hell out of Ukraine and is not a direct combatant so it absolutely is a proxy war. Which answers your original question a lot better than that article did Quote
WestCanMan Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 16 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: The above topic is by definition, false and misleading. Any ‘excuse’ for the Russian attack on Ukraine – because it felt threatened – should be viewed with the lens of history. You don't get to compare everything that anyone ever did to Hitler just because you don't like them, dummy. Some people brush their teeth like he did, or give their mom flowers, FYI that doesn't mean Martha Stewart is Adolf Hitler. JFK also "felt threatened", and responded with war against Cuba, and that was the year after HE invaded Cuba. By your count, it was ok for JFK to lead an invasion of Cuba, and then go to war when they reacted to his invasion. Should Russia react when 20 NATO armies push up against his western border, dummy? FYI what you quoted isn't "expert commentary", it's propaganda, dingus. What you see on the news is sometimes facts and sometimes it's propaganda, and the only way to know is by using your brain. Your comparison to Hitler was so broad that it was basically meaningless, and FYI Hitler didn't have 20 armies pushing towards his border. My comparison to JFK was far more similar to the Russia/Ukraine war but you guys refuse to acknowledge it because "We're good guys, with white hats" lol. Grow up, fool. Again, would the US allow Canada to join a military alliance with NoKo, Russia, China, and Iran? None of you can answer that, but the answer is a solid "NO", with a side of tanks and marines. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
robosmith Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 7 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: You don't get to compare everything that anyone ever did to Hitler just because you don't like them, dummy. Some people brush their teeth like he did, or give their mom flowers, FYI that doesn't mean Martha Stewart is Adolf Hitler. ^DRIVEL. You CANNOT LEGITIMATELY compare trying to overturn an election with giving your mother flowers. Both Hitler and Trump did that after LOSING re-election. Duh Trump shares far more characteristics with (early) Hitler than you are willing to admit. We will see if Trump's 2nd term continues along the same path as Hitler's 2nd term. Their EARLY political actions are very similar. 7 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: JFK also "felt threatened", and responded with war against Cuba, and that was the year after HE invaded Cuba. By your count, it was ok for JFK to lead an invasion of Cuba, and then go to war when they reacted to his invasion. JFK never invaded Cuba, doofus. In FACT he withdrew air cover for the Bay of Pigs invasion staged by CUBAN EX-PATS. 7 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: Should Russia react when 20 NATO armies push up against his western border, dummy? They're already ON the Russian border, dummy. Nato's border with Russia doubles as Finland joins BBC https://www.bbc.com › news › world-europe-65173043 Apr 4, 2023 — Finland has become the 31st member of the Nato security alliance, doubling the length of member states' borders with Russia. 7 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: My comparison to JFK was far more similar to the Russia/Ukraine war but you guys refuse to acknowledge it because "We're good guys, with white hats" lol. Grow up, fool. Again, would the US allow Canada to join a military alliance with NoKo, Russia, China, and Iran? None of you can answer that, but the answer is a solid "NO", with a side of tanks and marines. Your comparison to JFK is a LIE. JFK avoided armed conflict in Cuba by implementing a BLOCKADE, and then agreeing to withdraw US missiles from Turkey. No tanks were involved in Cuba, it was all about nuclear missiles, dummy. Quote
Yakuda Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 5 minutes ago, robosmith said: ^DRIVEL. You CANNOT LEGITIMATELY compare trying to overturn an election with giving your mother flowers. Both Hitler and Trump did that after LOSING re-election. Duh Trump shares far more characteristics with (early) Hitler than you are willing to admit. We will see if Trump's 2nd term continues along the same path as Hitler's 2nd term. Their EARLY political actions are very similar. JFK never invaded Cuba, doofus. In FACT he withdrew air cover for the Bay of Pigs invasion staged by CUBAN EX-PATS. They're already ON the Russian border, dummy. Nato's border with Russia doubles as Finland joins BBC https://www.bbc.com › news › world-europe-65173043 Apr 4, 2023 — Finland has become the 31st member of the Nato security alliance, doubling the length of member states' borders with Russia. Your comparison to JFK is a LIE. JFK avoided armed conflict in Cuba by implementing a BLOCKADE, and then agreeing to withdraw US missiles from Turkey. No tanks were involved in Cuba, it was all about nuclear missiles, dummy. You STILL can't figure out why you imbeciles lost can you? Quote
Legato Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 16 minutes ago, robosmith said: ^DRIVEL. You CANNOT LEGITIMATELY compare trying to overturn an election with giving your mother flowers. Both Hitler and Trump did that after LOSING re-election. Duh Trump shares far more characteristics with (early) Hitler than you are willing to admit. We will see if Trump's 2nd term continues along the same path as Hitler's 2nd term. Their EARLY political actions are very similar. So Hitler was the proxy used to overturn an election or was he a poxy to overturn an erection. You can't have it both ways. Scratch that, maybe you can. Quote
robosmith Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 Just now, Yakuda said: You STILL can't figure out why you imbeciles lost can you? Democrats lost SOLELY because they failed to turnout to vote, lDIOT. MILLIONS FEWER Democrats voted in 2024 than in 2020. Duh Collapse in Democratic Turnout Fueled Trump's Victory WSJ https://www.wsj.com › Politics › Elections 3 days ago — Party turnout dropped across the board, especially in non-battleground states, paving the way for Trump's resurgence. 4 minutes ago, Legato said: So Hitler was the proxy used to overturn an election or was he a poxy to overturn an erection. You can't have it both ways. Scratch that, maybe you can. Scratch your own balls, TROLL Quote
Yakuda Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 (edited) 5 minutes ago, robosmith said: Democrats lost SOLELY because they failed to turnout to vote, lDIOT. MILLIONS FEWER Democrats voted in 2024 than in 2020. Duh Collapse in Democratic Turnout Fueled Trump's Victory WSJ https://www.wsj.com › Politics › Elections 3 days ago — Party turnout dropped across the board, especially in non-battleground states, paving the way for Trump's resurgence. Scratch your own balls, TROLL Why did so many moronic Democrats fail to vote you dimwitted piece of $hit? Are we supposed to believe joe actually got 85 million votes? More than Obama bin laden and the talking out in a pant suit? Harris got the same amount as those 2 but Biden got so many more? You're a dupe Edited November 11, 2024 by Yakuda Quote
robosmith Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 2 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Why did so many moronic Democrats fail vote you dimwitted piece of $hit? Obviously because they believed Trump's LIES and didn't understand the impending DISASTER of what he was promising, A-HOLE. Quote
Yakuda Posted November 11, 2024 Report Posted November 11, 2024 (edited) 45 minutes ago, robosmith said: Obviously because they believed Trump's LIES and didn't understand the impending DISASTER of what he was promising, A-HOLE. So let me get this straight the idlot democrats didn't go out to vote because they believed Trump's lies AND didn't understand the "impending" disaster he is promising. So you're saying they are even more stupid than you. I can't imagine a human being that is more stupid than you. You're a major league m0ron. Edited November 11, 2024 by Yakuda 1 Quote
gatomontes99 Posted November 12, 2024 Report Posted November 12, 2024 23 hours ago, Yakuda said: So let me get this straight the idlot democrats didn't go out to vote because they believed Trump's lies AND didn't understand the "impending" disaster he is promising. So you're saying they are even more stupid than you. I can't imagine a human being that is more stupid than you. You're a major league m0ron. Don't forget, he's also saying Trump is like Hitler because Hitler was not like Hitler and Trump was not like Hitler which means Trump....is....just....like....Hitler!!!! 2 1 Quote The Rules for Liberal tactics: If they can't refute the content, attack the source. If they can't refute the content, attack the poster. If 1 and 2 fail, pretend it never happened. Everyone you disagree with is Hitler. A word is defined by the emotion it elicits and not the actual definition. If they are wrong, blame the opponent. If a liberal policy didn't work, it's a conservatives fault and vice versa. If all else fails, just be angry.
WestCanMan Posted November 12, 2024 Report Posted November 12, 2024 23 hours ago, Yakuda said: So let me get this straight the idlot democrats didn't go out to vote because they believed Trump's lies AND didn't understand the "impending" disaster he is promising. So you're saying they are even more stupid than you. I can't imagine a human being that is more stupid than you. You're a major league m0ron. Post of the Year candidate. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
WestCanMan Posted November 12, 2024 Report Posted November 12, 2024 https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-has-supplied-ukraine-with-over-980000-shells-borrell-says-2024-11-11/ Quote EU has supplied Ukraine with over 980,000 shells, Borrell says @DUI_Offender: ^That's^ what a proxy war is. "We have a lot more aging ordnance to get rid of, so keep the war going a while longer." Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
User Posted November 12, 2024 Report Posted November 12, 2024 55 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: "We have a lot more aging ordnance to get rid of, so keep the war going a while longer." Russia can end this war anytime they want to. They are the ones keeping it going. Quote
WestCanMan Posted November 12, 2024 Report Posted November 12, 2024 (edited) 9 minutes ago, User said: Russia can end this war anytime they want to. They are the ones keeping it going. The war will end soon. Maybe not as soon as it should - a lot of people will die in the next 50 70 days - but it has been going on for over 990 days now. 50 70 days is a blessing by comparison. I just found out the inauguration isn't until the 20th of January. Edited November 12, 2024 by WestCanMan Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
User Posted November 12, 2024 Report Posted November 12, 2024 6 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: The war will end soon. Maybe not as soon as it should - a lot of people will die in the next 50 days - but it has been going on for over 990 days now. 50 days is a blessing by comparison. Russia can end this war anytime they want to. This is a war you support. Quote
WestCanMan Posted November 12, 2024 Report Posted November 12, 2024 20 minutes ago, User said: Russia can end this war anytime they want to. Russia can't end this war until they get a guarantee that Ukraine won't join NATO, but I don't know what words on a piece of paper will mean when Dems control the WH the next time, and their propaganda is so willingly received by the masses. It seems like a buffer zone is necessary. Quote This is a war you support. I absolutely support Russia being in this war. NATO in Ukraine is far too serious of a threat from Russia's POV. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
User Posted November 12, 2024 Report Posted November 12, 2024 1 minute ago, WestCanMan said: Russia can't end this war until they get a guarantee that Ukraine won't join NATO, but I don't know what words on a piece of paper will mean when Dems control the WH the next time, and their propaganda is so willingly received by the masses. It seems like a buffer zone is necessary. LOL, they can literally stop. Right now. 2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: I absolutely support Russia being in this war. NATO in Ukraine is far too serious of a threat from Russia's POV. And that is why you are a warmonger. From Russian POV? Oh... so you agree that NATO isn't a threat now? Quote
WestCanMan Posted November 12, 2024 Report Posted November 12, 2024 4 minutes ago, User said: LOL, they can literally stop. Right now. Right. And then watch Ukraine join NATO tomorrow. Great plan, genius. Quote And that is why you are a warmonger. Because I understand why there's a legitimate war going on? OMG, just stop talking. Quote From Russian POV? Oh... so you agree that NATO isn't a threat now? Russia sees NATO from a different POV from you... How the F do you not understand that? NATO and the Warsaw Pact were enemies for 50 years: They literally pointed millions of guns at each other that whole time. Their subs bumped into each other below polar ice. Their fighters chased each other around. They had proxy wars: the US armed Afghanis to kill Russia and the Russians armed the Vietnamese to kill Americans. THEY'RE FiCKING ENEMIES, DUMMY! If you don't think that America qualifies as "Russia's enemy" then you're dumber than robo ffs. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
User Posted November 12, 2024 Report Posted November 12, 2024 1 minute ago, WestCanMan said: Right. And then watch Ukraine join NATO tomorrow. Great plan, genius. So what? Joining NATO is not a war. Russian life goes on. 2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: Because I understand why there's a legitimate war going on? OMG, just stop talking. Yes, you are a warmonger. The fact that you sit here trying to justify the war doesn't change that. Remember, you were the one who brought up the warmonger term to criticize those who support Ukraine defending themselves. You get to live with this term being accurately thrown back in your face now. 3 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: Russia sees NATO from a different POV from you... How the F do you not understand that? Lets try this again. I asked you: So do you agree that NATO is not a threat? 1 Quote
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