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15 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Even then, there are exceptions. Stephen Paddock did not let on that anything was bothering him. All that the very few people close to him knew was that his gambling fortunes were starting to not be so great. 

I'm sure no one knew.  But - the fact is according to the researchers there probably WERE tell tales, but most people don't recognize them and even if they do they're not sure how to handle them or how serious they are. 

it's not easy. That's why more resources for helping people recognize the danger signs makes sense, helping people with resources to address concerns productively makes sense, that kind of thing. 

 

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15 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Of course you're lying. That's why you can't really address the points. You get angry and frustrated that what I'm saying is correct because it goes against your echo chamber.

Me  if i go first. every time. Killed a Looooooooota critters with a 22 lr.  But i'll say something nice at your funeral  :) 

I doubt you've hit anything bigger than a gopher, let alone from distance.

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Wheras there's a pretty good chance you won't hit me with the BMG.  It's heavy, it's very difficult to manage the recoil, it's a hard to shoot gun unless you've got a lot of experience with them and unless you can set it up with a good rest and a fairly stationary target etc.

I'm sure you're excited you can flaunt whatever knowledge you've googled about this particular firearm, but the point is your claim that "There really isn't a gun that's more dangerous than another gun" is patently false.

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no. Is a Canadian researcher that has produced a wide body of research on the subject and has spoken at the united nations and then consulted by a number of agencies. He's extremely well respected and his work is backed up with extensive data

I looked him up and he seems to be a SFU marketing prof who puts out non-peer reviewed papers for the Fraser Institute.  Maybe there's anothe rguy with the same name, but i douybt it.

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Not really. Utah for example has very low gun laws and very few 'gun deaths' , but you just demonstrated a classic liberal lie that is frequently used.  "gun" deaths.  As if whether or not someone is murdered with a gun or a knife makes them less dead.  so lets take a look at whether or not gun laws actually reduce killings or if killers just find other ways. 

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District of columbia has some of the toughest gun laws in the us.  Highest murder  rate most years.  Hmmmm. 

Utah has very few gun laws, very low murder rate.  Hmmm. 

Maryland has very strict gun laws, number 9 in homicides per capita  How odd. 

Why  it's almost as if gun laws have absolutely no effect on actual violence.

 

Except they obviously do you've just chosen a narrow definition of "gun violence" that happens to exclude the majority of gun injuries and deaths.

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That's why anti-gun losers try to argue in terms of gun deaths rather than deaths. They don't actually care about deaths they just want to make it look like gun deaths are a problem. Like a stabbing death is no big deal but it's the gun deaths we should be worked up about.

In the U.S. guns are used in 26% of all violent crimes, 63% of homicides, 42% of robberies, 56% of suicides. IDK seems like a bigger problem than knives.

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Again, the biggest mass murders in American history did not happen with a gun.

And in fact the biggest mass killers are serial killers, and very few of them use a gun. Just because their murders don't all happen on the same day doesn't make them any less of a problem or tragedy.

We can tell you're full of shit when you have to reference extreme edge cases like terrorist attacks and serial killers to justify and defend the quotidian toll of gun violence.

America...."the worlds largest, best-armed shopping mall."-Ivor Tossell
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The 14 year old Georgia shooter was questioned by police over school shooting threats made online. His dad bought him an AR15 as a Christmas present a few months later. But sure, we just need people like that to be more aware of the warning signs.

Edited by Black Dog
America...."the worlds largest, best-armed shopping mall."-Ivor Tossell
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34 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I'm sure no one knew.  But - the fact is according to the researchers there probably WERE tell tales, but most people don't recognize them and even if they do they're not sure how to handle them or how serious they are. 

it's not easy. That's why more resources for helping people recognize the danger signs makes sense, helping people with resources to address concerns productively makes sense, that kind of thing. 

 

Those tell tales could be an indication of any number of things. he was starting to lose at the tables where he had been prodigious in years past. His business ventures were starting to not be cash cows.. they were still profitable but not as much. I just do not know of a way if you have the second amendment and legal CCW permits that you can eliminate these shootings completely. You can mitigate them but make the number go to zero... not so sure. 

Edited by impartialobserver
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6 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

I doubt you've hit anything bigger than a gopher, let alone from distance.

We both know that's not what you think :)  And if i can hit a gopher i can hit your forehead so you'd still be dead in your little scenario :) 

Kid you pretty much lost when you said 'eat a bullet'  :)  

Your entire post is just one denial after another without logic or reason or experience or cite. 

You can't refute a single point, you can't refute a single source, you can't even refute the whole gun violence thing which you started, now you're trying to expand it into gun accidents and gun injuries and gun deaths by accident. 

You could not have lost this one harder if you tried. Virtually every single thing you've said is either a lie or an emotional denial. You're practically crying and whining. 

Gun laws don't reduce crime. And there really is no gun that is substantially more dangerous than another once you get into the cartridge game especially with a fixed magazine or better.  I could easily slaughter just as many people with my pump action 'duck gun' as anyone  could with an ar.  I would just plan it a little different. Most of the killings with guns in the us are handguns, which are far weaker than almost any rifle for the most part. 

This is why we can't have reasonable conversations about how to address mass killings and gun issues, the dems and the lefties start out with a lie and then go downhill from there.

BTW - trudeau banned handguns and assault rifles, shootings have gone WAY up. So there you go. 

 

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10 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Those tell tales could be an indication of any number of things. he was starting to lose at the tables where he had been prodigious in years past. His business ventures were starting to not be cash cows.. they were still profitable but not as much. I just do not know of a way if you have the second amendment and legal CCW permits that you can eliminate these shootings completely. You can mitigate them but make the number go to zero... not so sure. 

oh I don't know that the goal would be to eliminate them completely, or that would necessarily be the measure of success for new laws or policy. There's no doubt that some are going to sneak by. I don't even know what all of these indicators that the experts who researched it were talking about would be so it's impossible to discuss whether he would have or not displayed any of them.

But I think you could do a lot more. It's just like seat belts don't eliminate auto fatalities, but they do reduce them so they're a good idea. Requiring drivers to be trained and educated before they drive on public property doesn't eliminate car accidents but it probably reduces them.

Once a person has decided to kill other people and takes action it is usually too late to prevent a tragedy. The best strategy is always to catch them before they get to that point and have prepared to take action. Trying to limit the tools they have available is a losing game, there are just too many things which are extremely fatal in our life that you can get your hands on

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1 hour ago, User said:

For the good guys, yes. 

You folks on the left make sure the bad guys know they are almost certainly going to be the only ones armed in your magical gun free zones. 

You just can't shed your wild west, good guy, bad guy mindset. FFS grow up, your country is almost 250 years old.

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4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

oh I don't know that the goal would be to eliminate them completely, or that would necessarily be the measure of success for new laws or policy. There's no doubt that some are going to sneak by. I don't even know what all of these indicators that the experts who researched it were talking about would be so it's impossible to discuss whether he would have or not displayed any of them.

But I think you could do a lot more. It's just like seat belts don't eliminate auto fatalities, but they do reduce them so they're a good idea. Requiring drivers to be trained and educated before they drive on public property doesn't eliminate car accidents but it probably reduces them.

Once a person has decided to kill other people and takes action it is usually too late to prevent a tragedy. The best strategy is always to catch them before they get to that point and have prepared to take action. Trying to limit the tools they have available is a losing game, there are just too many things which are extremely fatal in our life that you can get your hands on

Every time there is a shooting, the internet lights up with folks saying that if there were stricter gun laws this would not happen. On the surface, I want to agree with them. But then I think about the sheer number of guns, how easy it is to buy one, and the population. That alone makes any law mostly a deterrent to some but not going to stop them all and that is what these folks who get outraged want. They do not want less of them.. they want this mythical land where the random, spree killers are stopped and yet garden variety drug deal gone bad does occur. 

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1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

You can't refute a single point, you can't refute a single source, you can't even refute the whole gun violence thing which you started, now you're trying to expand it into gun accidents and gun injuries and gun deaths by accident. 

"Gun violence" includes all those things:

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Gun-related violence is violence committed with the use of a firearm. Gun-related violence may or may not be considered criminal. Criminal violence includes homicide (except when and where ruled justifiable), assault with a deadly weapon, and suicide, or attempted suicide, depending on jurisdiction. Non-criminal violence includes accidental or unintentional injury and death (except perhaps in cases of criminal negligence). 

I've been consistent in considering the complete toll of guns on society. Just because you don't give a shit about the 57% of gun deaths that aren't classified as murder doesn't mean they are any less important or worth preventing.

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You could not have lost this one harder if you tried. Virtually every single thing you've said is either a lie or an emotional denial. You're practically crying and whining. 

It's truly fascinating how every single exchange with you involves both you lying in a very transparent way and this chest puffing performance which really just betrays your deep intellectual insecurity. But trust me when I say you have every reason to be insecure: you really are extremely stupid.

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This is why we can't have reasonable conversations about how to address mass killings and gun issues, the dems and the lefties start out with a lie and then go downhill from there.

I think this thread clearly shows that reasonable conversations about mass killings involving guns are impossible because dipshit conservatives like you always try to make it about other things like knives or vague handwaving in the general direction of mental health (but never any concrete policy prescriptions). 

Edited by Black Dog
America...."the worlds largest, best-armed shopping mall."-Ivor Tossell
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4 hours ago, Aristides said:

You just can't shed your wild west, good guy, bad guy mindset. FFS grow up, your country is almost 250 years old.

There is nothing wild West about self-defense. 

 

4 hours ago, Black Dog said:

We can tell you're full of shit when you have to reference extreme edge cases like terrorist attacks and serial killers to justify and defend the quotidian toll of gun violence.

Maybe when Democrats start caring more about locking the thugs up instead of electing soft on crime DA's more interested in equity than justice... you can talk to us about gun violence. 

LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... 

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."

 

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5 hours ago, Black Dog said:

Except there's little to no evidence that armed guards in schools prevent or stop mass shootings, just as there's little to no evidence that being a "gun free zone" makes a place more likely to be targeted. As I said, two of the worst mass school shooting in history  happened at schools where a SRO was present.

Little to no evidence?

Folks like you are just happy to let bad guys kill as many people as they can, all because you don't like guns. It is just insanity. 

A New York Times infographic on how 433 active shooting attacks ended :  r/coolguides

LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... 

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."

 

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1 hour ago, Aristides said:

So far this year 131 people have died in mass shootings in the US and guns are the leading cause of death among children and teens

Yes, of course. Guns are just lying around, and BAM, there goes another child dead from a gun...

Or, more like suicide is the root cause and we need to focus on helping kids who are suicidal... and gang violence is a problem and we need to focus on such criminal activity... 

LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... 

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."

 

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10 hours ago, User said:

Little to no evidence?

Folks like you are just happy to let bad guys kill as many people as they can, all because you don't like guns. It is just insanity. 

A New York Times infographic on how 433 active shooting attacks ended :  r/coolguides

LOL you dumb dipshit, this literally proves my point. Of the 64 attacks stopped by bystanders, 42 were stopped by unarmed citizens. Only 27% of all shootings were ended by a "good guy with a gun" if you include cops. Armed bystanders stopped just 5% of all mass shootings.

America...."the worlds largest, best-armed shopping mall."-Ivor Tossell
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1 hour ago, User said:

Yes, of course. Guns are just lying around, and BAM, there goes another child dead from a gun...

Or, more like suicide is the root cause and we need to focus on helping kids who are suicidal... and gang violence is a problem and we need to focus on such criminal activity... 

One good way to help kids and adults who are suicidal is to reduce the accessibility of the most lethal methods of ending their lives. Most suicide attempts are impulsive decisions and a suicidal person in the grip of a crisis will reach for whatever method is closet at hand. And if that's a gun, the chances of that person actually killing themselves is very high. But you don't know or care about any of that.

America...."the worlds largest, best-armed shopping mall."-Ivor Tossell
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1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

LOL you dumb dipshit, this literally proves my point. Of the 64 attacks stopped by bystanders, 42 were stopped by unarmed citizens. Only 27% of all shootings were ended by a "good guy with a gun" if you include cops. Armed bystanders stopped just 5% of all mass shootings.

I love how dishonest you are. We were not only talking about bystanders, we were talking about someone with a gun being there to stop them, which includes law enforcement - SRO's. 

You said there was no evidence, now all you are left with is saying it is not very much and shifting from an SRO to bystanders. 

We are talking about liberal id10ts like you who won't let them do that in schools. Remember, you want to keep them gun free zones so the bad guys can go in and kill as many as they want to or can before someone with a gun shows up. 

 

LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... 

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."

 

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1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

One good way to help kids and adults who are suicidal is to reduce the accessibility of the most lethal methods of ending their lives. Most suicide attempts are impulsive decisions and a suicidal person in the grip of a crisis will reach for whatever method is closet at hand. And if that's a gun, the chances of that person actually killing themselves is very high. But you don't know or care about any of that.

Other methods of suicide are just as lethal, we are talking a few percentage points difference... 

I guess we need to make access to high places, ropes, bodies of water, prescription drugs, and vehicle exhaust difficult as well. 

Or, maybe we focus on the people...

 

55 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

What's your point, Nazi scum? Say it, don't be a pu$$y.

Is it a real one or a fake one? You can't tell the difference... 

Edited by User

LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... 

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."

 

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3 minutes ago, User said:

I love how dishonest you are. We were not only talking about bystanders, we were talking about someone with a gun being there to stop them, which includes law enforcement - SRO's. 

Again: the data shows most attacks are over before law enforcement responds and only a small number of those are ended by someone with a gun who isn't an LEO.

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You said there was no evidence, now all you are left with is saying it is not very much and shifting from an SRO to bystanders.  

I said "there's little to no evidence that armed guards in schools prevent or stop mass shootings." Your data, which shows that only about 1/4 of ALL mass shootings (not just school shootings) are ended by a "good guy with a gun" (including cops responding to the incident) doesn't counter that at all.

Starting in the '90s after Columbine the number of cops in schools has increased to the point that by 2018, approximately 58% of schools had at least one sworn law enforcement official present during the school week (that number is undoubtedly higher now). So one would think the number of school shootings would decrease. And yet...

19982.jpeg

 

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We are talking about liberal id10ts like you who won't let them do that in schools. Remember, you want to keep them gun free zones so the bad guys can go in and kill as many as they want to or can before someone with a gun shows up. 

Again, there's also no evidence "gun free zones" make a place more likely to be targeted. I mean, this Georgia school wasn't a gun-free zone (it had two SROs on site). Uvalde had an SRO. So did Stoneman Douglas in Parkland (theirs cowered in the parking lot during the shooting). 

So again: where's the evidence that armed police in schools prevent or mitigate school shootings or that "gun-free zones" are a factor in any shootings? Do you have any evidence or just the usual gun nut shibboleths?

America...."the worlds largest, best-armed shopping mall."-Ivor Tossell
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17 minutes ago, User said:

Other methods of suicide are just as lethal, we are talking a few percentage points difference... 

I guess we need to make access to high places, ropes, bodies of water, prescription drugs, and vehicle exhaust difficult as well. 

Yet more suicides in the U.S. involve a firearm (52%) than every other method combined. Given the generally impulsive nature of suicides, there's no reason to think depriving someone of a fast and effective means of killing themselves in the form of a firearm mean they simply find a different method in the moment.

Edited by Black Dog
America...."the worlds largest, best-armed shopping mall."-Ivor Tossell
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7 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Again: the data shows most attacks are over before law enforcement responds and only a small number of those are ended by someone with a gun who isn't an LEO.

Good thing our argument was not about what led to most attacks being over. 

You said no evidence they help... now you have to lie and act like you didn't. 

8 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Your data, which shows that only about 1/4 of ALL mass shootings (not just school shootings) are ended by a "good guy with a gun" (including cops responding to the incident) doesn't counter that at all.

Yes, that is called evidence you clown. 

Of course, you can't even figure out what a woman is or what a real vagina is...

8 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Starting in the '90s after Columbine the number of cops in schools has increased to the point that by 2018, approximately 58% of schools had at least one sworn law enforcement official present during the school week (that number is undoubtedly higher now). So one would think the number of school shootings would decrease. And yet...

Did you learn reasoning skills from a cracker jack box?

You need to compare school shooting numbers in schools with law enforcement vs those without... because of course there will still be school shootings in the other % of schools without, or they will be worse... 

Also, the issue is mainly one of being a social contagion... why is it you think that there were not very many school shootings before Columbine and they just keep going up? It is because of the popularity and notoriety of them now. 

10 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Again, there's also no evidence "gun free zones" make a place more likely to be targeted.

Yet again, that was not the argument. 

 

2 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Yet more suicides in the U.S. involve a firearm (52%) than every other method combined. Given the generally impulsive nature of suicides, there's no reason to think depriving someone of a fast and effective means of killing themselves in the form of a firearm mean they simply find a different method in the moment.

Japan has almost zero gun ownership and they have more suicides. 

Guns are just a tool and I have no idea how you think you are going to keep a gun from someone and know they are suicidal... and I guess you don't give a crap about the other half of kids who kill themselves with other means... 

LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... 

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."

 

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34 minutes ago, User said:

Good thing our argument was not about what led to most attacks being over. 

You said no evidence they help... now you have to lie and act like you didn't. 

Again, I said "there's little to no evidence that armed guards in schools prevent or stop mass shootings." Again: your data doesn't counter that at all.

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Yes, that is called evidence you clown. 

Of course, you can't even figure out what a woman is or what a real vagina is...

Your evidence doesn't show that armed guards in schools prevent or stop mass shootings, you retarded chimpf*cker. 

1. It covers ALL mass shootings not just school shootings

2. It only shows a small number of those are actually stopped by a "good guy with a gun"

3. You're genital obsession is irrelevant to this converstaion.

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Did you learn reasoning skills from a cracker jack box?

You need to compare school shooting numbers in schools with law enforcement vs those without... because of course there will still be school shootings in the other % of schools without, or they will be worse... 

Ok, a55hole why don't you post the evidence that compares school shootings in schools with LEOs vs those without.

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Also, the issue is mainly one of being a social contagion... why is it you think that there were not very many school shootings before Columbine and they just keep going up? It is because of the popularity and notoriety of them now. 

No kidding dipshit. But pieces of shit like you want to make sure any kid who wants to be the next Nikolas Cruz or Salvador Ramos has ready access to the means to make themselves famous.

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Yet again, that was not the argument. 

So why do you keep whining and crying about gun-free zones?

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Japan has almost zero gun ownership and they have more suicides. 

Yeah there's a cultural component there, just like blowing one's brains out is a cultural thing in the U.S.A.

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Guns are just a tool and I have no idea how you think you are going to keep a gun from someone and know they are suicidal... and I guess you don't give a crap about the other half of kids who kill themselves with other means

I think reducing the prevalence of guns in U.S. society as a whole would help.

Mind you piece of shit right wing losers like you don't actually care about improving mental health care or anything else that would actually prevent suicides overall.

America...."the worlds largest, best-armed shopping mall."-Ivor Tossell
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