Gay Pride Season.

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The LGBTQ Flag?  Are they flying a portion of the flag only or something?  

You're trying to split a hair that can't be split.  Unless they put some sort of disclaimer stapled to the flag as to what they do or don't agree with or support then it's support for all the issues as a whole. 

I disagree entirely.  "Issues" are not universally supported, even by LGBTQ+ people themselves such as Perspektiv.  

The flag can't mean everything so it means only the basic message: these people exist and we are with them.  We don't necessarily support a law saying you go to jail for calling someone a f*g... even they wouldn't support that.

But we're arguing semiotics and more useless a thing to argue, there almost isn't...

[ExFlyer]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I disagree entirely.  "Issues" are not universally supported, even by LGBTQ+ people themselves such as Perspektiv.  

The flag can't mean everything so it means only the basic message: these people exist and we are with them.  We don't necessarily support a law saying you go to jail for calling someone a f*g... even they wouldn't support that.

But we're arguing semiotics and more useless a thing to argue, there almost isn't...

Interestingly, "the flag" has become a means of intimidation for the lgbqt4s+++ crowd.

Don't paint the crosswalks or the bench or raise the flag and you will get nothing but bad reaction and comment from that community.

It is the only "other" flag that is hoisted at city halls and schools and elsewhere for an entire month other than the Canadian or Provincial or official flags.

Don't fly the flag or paint or commemorate and the organization that does not will be fully chastised.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

1. Interestingly, "the flag" has become a means of intimidation for the lgbqt4s+++ crowd.

2. Don't paint the crosswalks or the bench or raise the flag and you will get nothing but bad reaction and comment from that community.

3. It is the only "other" flag that is hoisted at city halls and schools and elsewhere for an entire month other than the Canadian or Provincial or official flags.

4. Don't fly the flag or paint or commemorate and the organization that does not will be fully chastised.

1.  Again it's semiotics.  We only fear an east Indian symbol because a German socialist group liked it in the 20th century.
2. Because they interpret the meaning differently from you.  You know that people also want to ban the poppy right ?
3. You're splicing an instance to make it seem more significant than it is.  Take out "entire month" and you have lots of examples of flags being flown.
4. Because they believe it to be a symbol of inclusion.  And not accepting that general interpretation of the symbol is a kind of proof that they're right I think.  Would you like to select a different symbol of LGBTQ+ inclusion ?  If so, which one ?  And also ... why ?  Why start over ?  

[ExFlyer]

24 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  Again it's semiotics.  We only fear an east Indian symbol because a German socialist group liked it in the 20th century.
2. Because they interpret the meaning differently from you.  You know that people also want to ban the poppy right ?
3. You're splicing an instance to make it seem more significant than it is.  Take out "entire month" and you have lots of examples of flags being flown.
4. Because they believe it to be a symbol of inclusion.  And not accepting that general interpretation of the symbol is a kind of proof that they're right I think.  Would you like to select a different symbol of LGBTQ+ inclusion ?  If so, which one ?  And also ... why ?  Why start over ?  

1. There is no semantics about my comment. Not displaying the flag opens up the criticism from that community.

BTW, "semantics" is the use of language, not comparison of symbols.

2. I am not sure what your retort is supposed to mean? I am talking about raising a flag, painting a crosswalk and bench.

3. I splice nothing. I am stating a fact. The fact is that the pride flag flies for the month and no other flag flies for that period.

4. I believe that their "inclusion" or not is imagined. No one cares and a display for an entire month obviously does not change perception. I think the flag is a symbol of sexual choice and recognize it..but I do not need to see it celebrated for an entire month every year. We do not do it for any other reason for an entire month. A week ...well OK but really, a month  every year seems like pushing it down peoples throats.

This comes up every year and the rhetoric and arguments are the same year after year after year. Imagine, a year with no display... who would miss it beside the lgqb2sq+++ folks wanting to prance and play???

 

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. There is no semantics about my comment.

2. Not displaying the flag opens up the criticism from that community.

3. BTW, "semantics" is the use of language, not comparison of symbols.

4. I am not sure what your retort is supposed to mean? I am talking about raising a flag, painting a crosswalk and bench.

5. I splice nothing. I am stating a fact. The fact is that the pride flag flies for the month and no other flag flies for that period.

6. I believe that their "inclusion" or not is imagined. No one cares and a display for an entire month obviously does not change perception. I think the flag is a symbol of sexual choice and recognize it..but I do not need to see it celebrated for an entire month every year. We do not do it for any other reason for an entire month. A week ...well OK but really, a month  every year seems like pushing it down peoples throats.

7. This comes up every year and the rhetoric and arguments are the same year after year after year. Imagine, a year with no display... who would miss it beside the lgqb2sq+++ folks wanting to prance and play???

 

1. 3. Semiotics not semantics.
2. Simply because it means different things to different groups.
4. Not a retort but a counter point.  Both a rainbow and a poppy are symbols used in the public sphere.
5. Pride is a month, hence the reason for it flying all month.   It doesn't mean more or less than other flags based on the time lapse but again arguing meanings is subjective.
6. "I do not need it" "I believe" "is imagined" "down peoples throats [sic]" ... yes - it's perception and so the bigger number wins, generally.  More are ok with it than not in many areas.
7.  I sure didn't hear about it 10 years ago. 

Edited to add: for point 7 it's been documented/remarked on that support for LGBTQ+ has gone down of late ...

Edited June 14, 2024 by Michael Hardner

[ExFlyer]

29 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. 3. Semiotics not semantics.
2. Simply because it means different things to different groups.
4. Not a retort but a counter point.  Both a rainbow and a poppy are symbols used in the public sphere.
5. Pride is a month, hence the reason for it flying all month.   It doesn't mean more or less than other flags based on the time lapse but again arguing meanings is subjective.
6. "I do not need it" "I believe" "is imagined" "down peoples throats [sic]" ... yes - it's perception and so the bigger number wins, generally.  More are ok with it than not in many areas.
7.  I sure didn't hear about it 10 years ago. 

Edited to add: for point 7 it's been documented/remarked on that support for LGBTQ+ has gone down of late ...

1. I stand corrected

2. No, the pride flag means one thing and one thing only. Symbology is a different topic.

3.

4

5 Yes, pride is a month and that is my displeasure. Why a month. No other celebration  (other than  religious ) is a month.

6. I completely disagree. Most people are not OK with it. Thing is that it is not politically correct to say so... you will be demeaned and called out if you don't so, they say nothing ad let the m be.

7. There was lots of "gay" talk 10 years ago. It is just that now every sexual or whatever group has jumped on the bandwagon. Your acronym grows constantly LOL  Most people do  not even know, let alone care, what clothes or costumes or who's bed you boink in with whomever you want. The fact your group is constantly advertising, playing victim and "celebrating" is getting old and tiresome as you seem to be aware of.

 

[impartialobserver]

Like it or not.. the younger generation is more tolerant and accepting of LGBTQ and such. That reality does not demand the approval of anyone on here. It is as immutable as the temperature outside or that the Boston Celtics lead the NBA finals 3 games to zero over the Dallas Mavericks. Secondly.. the younger generation is also who makes up the majority of population in the urban core of the larger cities where the parades are held. 

[ExFlyer]

22 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Like it or not.. the younger generation is more tolerant and accepting of LGBTQ and such. That reality does not demand the approval of anyone on here. It is as immutable as the temperature outside or that the Boston Celtics lead the NBA finals 3 games to zero over the Dallas Mavericks. Secondly.. the younger generation is also who makes up the majority of population in the urban core of the larger cities where the parades are held. 

Yup, the younger generation are more tolerant ...of everything.

What does not touch or affect them directly is OK with them all the time. Their tolerance will eventually bite them in the ass some day and they will have to take a stand and hopefully their indecision and tolerance now will not affect their lives in the future.

Not saying lqbrtgs2q++ is the only indifference to which they display but it is just one issue that they pass off as insignificant.

[impartialobserver]

10 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Yup, the younger generation are more tolerant ...of everything.

What does not touch or affect them directly is OK with them all the time. Their tolerance will eventually bite them in the ass some day and they will have to take a stand and hopefully their indecision and tolerance now will not affect their lives in the future.

Not saying lqbrtgs2q++ is the only indifference to which they display but it is just one issue that they pass off as insignificant.

How will their acceptance or indifference come back to bite them? I am one of those that you describe. If i had a neighbor that was gay.. I could not care less what they do in their home. As long as they do not harm me directly (physically or financially).. they are free to live their lives as they choose. Guess what? I expect the same standard applied to me. 

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. No, the pride flag means one thing and one thing only. 

2 Yes, pride is a month and that is my displeasure. Why a month. No other celebration  (other than  religious ) is a month.

3. I completely disagree. Most people are not OK with it.

4. Thing is that it is not politically correct to say so... you will be demeaned and called out if you don't so, they say nothing ad let the m be.

5. There was lots of "gay" talk 10 years ago. It is just that now every sexual or whatever group has jumped on the bandwagon. Your acronym grows constantly LOL  ... The fact your group ... 

 

1.  And yet you and I differ.  So does that mean I am just wrong ?  Are you are the arbiter of meaning ?  Because if so I have a lot to ask you.  
2. I'm pretty sure that will subside, so don't worry too much.
3. Do you want me to post a poll showing support for LGBTQ+ ?  Same sex marriage ?  Or are we talking about your interpretation of what it means, and people not being in favour of THAT ?  Because that's pretty flimsy IMO. 
It's like saying people who wear the poppy are in favour of genocide, based on interpretation of a symbol etc.
4. Well, some people will demean you and call you out for anything... it's not a basis for any policy discussion to say abuse happens in the public forum.  You have to deal with abuse, erroneous claims and so on with controversial topics.  You are complaining about human nature, bascially.
5. Such as ?  Trans ?  Asexuals ?  Two Spirits ?  Not my acronyms and not my group. I'm just explaining my views on how such things fit into the public sphere thanks.

[ExFlyer]

11 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

How will their acceptance or indifference come back to bite them? I am one of those that you describe. If i had a neighbor that was gay.. I could not care less what they do in their home. As long as they do not harm me directly (physically or financially).. they are free to live their lives as they choose. Guess what? I expect the same standard applied to me. 

Indifference will always bite you in the ass no matter what it is.

You may not care now but...it may affect you tomorrow or in the future.

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  And yet you and I differ. ,,,,
.....

Yes we do.

Have a great day

[impartialobserver]

Just now, ExFlyer said:

Indifference will always bite you in the ass no matter what it is.

You may not care now but...it may affect you tomorrow or in the future.

Can you explain how? You think that I can actually control the actions of other adults.. that is funny. 

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I disagree entirely.  "Issues" are not universally supported, even by LGBTQ+ people themselves such as Perspektiv.  
 

well you  have the right to be completely wrong in this country so nobody's going to stop you    

But that was a bait and switch on your part. We're not talking about whether or not a person may personally fully support another group or not. In fact I would venture a guess that there are very very few groups that anyone agrees with 100%. There are disputes within virtually every group.

But what we were discussing is the symbolism of flying a flag. And that is very different. 

Again, if i was wrong then they wouldn't be pushing so hard for it to be flown. 

Flying a flag like that denotes that your organization/gov't/whatever fully supports their organization and without any other context that absolutely is support for their entire agenda. 

 

Again. If i was wrong, they woudn't care if it was flown or not. 

 

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

And yet you and I differ.  So does that mean I am just wrong ? 

Yes, You are wrong. 

Quote

Are you are the arbiter of meaning ?

No, that's me. 

Quote

Because if so I have a lot to ask you.  

I'm always here for you, My Son. 

[ExFlyer]

2 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

Can you explain how? You think that I can actually control the actions of other adults.. that is funny. 

There are may symptoms and consequences of indifference. I suggest you Google "is indifference bad" as it can describe the consequences and effect much better than I can.

Such as "While indifference can be harmless and normal to experience, it can also be harmful. The indifference, unresponsiveness, detachment, and passivity that are characteristic of apathy can leave apathetic individuals feeling exhausted and also lead to their making bad decisions — because, well, they just don't care"

[impartialobserver]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

There are may symptoms and consequences of indifference. I suggest you Google "is indifference bad" as it can describe the consequences and effect much better than I can.

Such as "While indifference can be harmless and normal to experience, it can also be harmful. The indifference, unresponsiveness, detachment, and passivity that are characteristic of apathy can leave apathetic individuals feeling exhausted and also lead to their making bad decisions — because, well, they just don't care"

can you be more precise about how people indifference towards LGTBQ is bad? Admit it or not.. but there are a lot of topics that an average person is indifferent about. We all pick and choose our battles. 

[ExFlyer]

56 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

can you be more precise about how people indifference towards LGTBQ is bad? Admit it or not.. but there are a lot of topics that an average person is indifferent about. We all pick and choose our battles. 

No.

[impartialobserver]

4 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

No.

So you are passionate to the Nth degree on every topic.. I have a hard time believing that. A person can only care about so many things. 

[taxme]

On 6/12/2024 at 10:02 PM, herbie said:

Let us know when you find one, other than in your vivid, paranoid imagination.

Come on, stop showing your liberal Marxist stupidity all the time. I am pretty dam sure that there is at least one lesbian teacher in some school in Canada somewhere. My opinion is that there are probably a lot more than just one lesbian teacher out there. To believe otherwise is to be bloody stupid. At this time though you do appear to be quite stupid. Just my opinion. 🤣

[Zeitgeist]

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  Again it's semiotics.  We only fear an east Indian symbol because a German socialist group liked it in the 20th century.
2. Because they interpret the meaning differently from you.  You know that people also want to ban the poppy right ?
3. You're splicing an instance to make it seem more significant than it is.  Take out "entire month" and you have lots of examples of flags being flown.
4. Because they believe it to be a symbol of inclusion.  And not accepting that general interpretation of the symbol is a kind of proof that they're right I think.  Would you like to select a different symbol of LGBTQ+ inclusion ?  If so, which one ?  And also ... why ?  Why start over ?  

You miss the point.  Not everyone believes that the various lifestyles and identities represented by the flag should be promoted.  That’s not the same thing as bullying or harassing someone with one of these identities or orientations, which is almost universally opposed in Canada.  We’ve talked about the difference between caring about someone and opposing a person’s choices.

The other problem is that not everyone who falls under this general LGBTQ2S+ category is in agreement or even particularly similar.  It’s like pretending that someone from Morocco is just like someone from Mozambique because both are African, then making many assumptions about a person’s beliefs and behaviour on that basis.

A majority of Canadians agree that legal marital rights should be available to homosexual people.  That’s not the same thing as thinking such unions are great or sacramental.  Opinions vary widely on that.  Certainly the gender alteration debate is not decisively in favour of greater liberalization.

Generally people shouldn’t face legal penalties because of sexual orientation, but we still don’t think the pedophilia orientation is okay or should be legal.  We’re casting very large nets.  Be careful what you endorse as a society, especially one with a negative birth rate and a lot of dubious legal opportunities, from legal hard drugs to assisted suicide and unlimited abortion up to the expected date of birth.  Is more promotion of what was recently considered deviant or criminal really what we need?

Does a religious person opposed to homosexual activity or non-biological gender need to be forced to fly the pride flag?  Are religious rights and freedom of expression no longer important?  These flags feel a lot like the old hammer and sickle recast.  Ideology and pseudoscience are elevated above important longstanding rights and values that are at the roots of our culture and democracy.

Edited June 15, 2024 by Zeitgeist

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You miss the point.  

I don't think that flying the flag promotes anything but inclusion.  Nobody is forced to fly it, and religious rights are mostly intact, with an exception that I already voiced.

[Zeitgeist]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't think that flying the flag promotes anything but inclusion.  Nobody is forced to fly it, and religious rights are mostly intact, with an exception that I already voiced.

No one should be forced to wear or fly that flag. Currently most school boards, big businesses, and all government departments and agencies in Canada fly it irrespective of the opinions of the members and their families.  It’s another mandatory hammer and sickle or swastika on the lapel.  Anyone who is honest and halfway intelligent knows this..  Not for me or my kids thank you.

Edited June 15, 2024 by Zeitgeist

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't think that flying the flag promotes anything but inclusion

At a business, its typically virtue signaling.

If you have to tell people who is welcome in your business, you're trying to pat yourself on the back.

I will serve anyone with money. I couldn't care less who you are. 

Anyone refusing to serve any demographic, won't be in business too long.

Its also living down white guilt.

I totally get someone flying it in their home. Their car.

But advertising that you are cool with gay people entering your store, just rings of one trying to appeal.

Proof of which are the LGBTQ heavy messaging of Nike in the west. In the middle east, and all Asian countries I have visited. Crickets. 

Has nothing to do with inclusion, unless by inclusion you're eluding to the inclusion of your cash into their coffers. 

[Michael Hardner]

58 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. No one should be forced to wear or fly that flag.

2.  It’s another mandatory hammer and sickle or swastika on the lapel.  

1. Yes we said that 

2. It's not.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Yes we said that 

2. It's not.

Well I think it is.  We’re still allowed to have differences of opinion, hopefully.

Edited June 15, 2024 by Zeitgeist

[Venandi]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Does a religious person opposed to homosexual activity or non-biological gender need to be forced to fly the pride flag?

 

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Nobody is forced to fly it, and religious rights are mostly intact

Here's an example of activists trying to force Catholic school boards to adopt a position contrary to their religious beliefs on that very subject.

 https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/forcing-pride-on-catholic-schools-isnt-diversity

Putting aside the question of who's right, who's wrong, and who will eventually prevail, I think the public optics here are just horrid and any potential win comes at a such a high cost that it renders the fight itself wildly counterproductive.

This is what creates backlash, fuels division, creates polarization, leads to winner take all elections, and causes previously tolerant and good natured people to make hard right turns in the search for a return to common sense. 

A lot of gains have been made here so why not just take yes as an answer and avoid the looming backlash altogether?

All that's required is extending the same tolerance and good will that enabled those gains to many of the people who supported them in the first place.

All you had to do to lock in those gains was not be crazy...  and you couldn't do it. I call it bad tactics when the worst thing for your cause is a win.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2024 by Venandi