User Posted May 20 Report Share Posted May 20 What a complete joke. The ICC has proven now, beyond any doubt, they are a worthless organization. They are now conflating Israeli leadership with Hamas leadership in the same dumb moral parity game others try to do. This is an outrage. EXCLUSIVE: ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu for war crimes over October 7 attack and Gaza war https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/20/middleeast/icc-israel-hamas-arrest-warrant-war-crimes-intl/index.html "The International Criminal Court is seeking arrest warrants for Hamas leader in Gaza Yahya Sinwar and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity over the October 7 attacks on Israel and the subsequent war in Gaza, the court’s prosecutor Karim Khan told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour in an exclusive interview on Monday." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted May 20 Report Share Posted May 20 19 minutes ago, User said: What a complete joke. The ICC has proven now, beyond any doubt, they are a worthless organization. They are now conflating Israeli leadership with Hamas leadership in the same dumb moral parity game others try to do. This is an outrage. EXCLUSIVE: ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu for war crimes over October 7 attack and Gaza war https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/20/middleeast/icc-israel-hamas-arrest-warrant-war-crimes-intl/index.html "The International Criminal Court is seeking arrest warrants for Hamas leader in Gaza Yahya Sinwar and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity over the October 7 attacks on Israel and the subsequent war in Gaza, the court’s prosecutor Karim Khan told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour in an exclusive interview on Monday." This is fair. Both sides have committed crimes against humanity, killing defenseless women and children. Not only the two leaders but those who carried out the crimes should also be put on trail and if guilty then punished severely. Hamas crimes was much more brutal. They targeted purposely the defenseless civilian population of Israel and raped women and brutally murdered defenseless civilians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 20 Author Report Share Posted May 20 9 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: This is fair. Both sides have committed crimes against humanity, killing defenseless women and children. Not only the two leaders but those who carried out the crimes should also be put on trail and if guilty then punished severely. Hamas crimes was much more brutal. They targeted purposely the defenseless civilian population of Israel and raped women and brutally murdered defenseless civilians. I see you are going to "both sides" this too. No, Hamas invaded Israel deliberately targeting women, children, families... they gunned people down as they ran for their lives at a concert. They gunned them down as they cowered hiding. They gunned them down in cold blood when they found them hiding in shelters. Hamas raped, tortured... they went into homes to do this. Then they took hostages. Then Hamas hides behind their own people. When Israel is killing Hamas militants fighting from among their own people and they happen to kill civilians, that is still Hamas responsibility for embedding their fighters among civilians. Nothing Israel did is anywhere in the same universe of evil as what Hamas did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted May 20 Report Share Posted May 20 2 minutes ago, User said: I Nothing Israel did is anywhere in the same universe of evil as what Hamas did. Israel bombs towns and cities knowing that they will be killing many innocent defenseless women and children in the process. They don't purposely target civilians and Hamas is the one using civilians as human shields but they are still guilty of mass murder and they have killed by far a larger number of civilians than Hamas ever did, so don't represent Israel as the innocent. Be fair in your assessments. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 20 Author Report Share Posted May 20 1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Israel bombs towns and cities knowing that they will be killing many innocent defenseless women and children in the process. They don't purposely target civilians and Hamas is the one using civilians as human shields but they are still guilty of mass murder and they have killed by far a larger number of civilians than Hamas ever did, so don't represent Israel as the innocent. Be fair in your assessments. It is not a war crime to know you will kill innocent women and children when they are military targets. If Hamas puts rockets in a school and Israel blows them up and happens to kill children, that is Hamas war crime, not Israel. That is not murder. Nor is war a measurement of equal proportions of dead... otherwise wars would never be won. My assessments are more than fair, they are based on logic, reason, and the actual laws of war. Israel goes out of their way to avoid civilian deaths, but they are not bound by any morals or laws of war to avoid them all because Hamas is hiding behind them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted May 20 Report Share Posted May 20 (edited) 23 minutes ago, User said: I My assessments are more than fair, they are based on logic, reason, and the actual laws of war. Say this your fair assessment to the family of over 15000 civilians killed so far by Israel. and over a million made homeless The other half who were killed (Hamas fighters), hell to them Edited May 20 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 20 Author Report Share Posted May 20 10 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Say this your fair assessment to the family of over 15000 civilians killed so far by Israel. and over a million made homeless The other half who were killed (Hamas fighters), hell to them No, they were made that way by Hamas. That is a very low number of civilians killed for the amount of bombs dropped and Hamas militants targeted. As far as homelessness, that is a duplicitous argument from you at best. Israel moves people to protect them. You are trying to have it both ways. You want to attack Israel for killing civilians when they go out of their way to move them and then turn around and use the very fact that you ignore to blame them for killing civilians, to complain they are making them homeless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted May 20 Report Share Posted May 20 (edited) If they really want to avoid civilian suffering then Israel must stop bombing indiscriminately and randomly and instead send their soldiers in to fight Hamas terrorists one by one. This will of course cause a lot more casualties on Israel side but they wish to minimize their own casualty at the expense of other civilians. Edited May 20 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 20 Author Report Share Posted May 20 3 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: If they really want to avoid civilian suffering then Israel must stop bombing indiscriminately and randomly and instead send their soldiers in to fight Hamas terrorists one by one. This will of course cause a lot more casualties on Israel side but they wish to minimize their own casualty at the expense of other civilians. How are they bombing indiscriminately? The last time I checked there was a .8 death to bomb ratio. They are not carpet bombing Gaza. They are using guided munitions on military targets on a battlefield during time of war. Targets that are confirmed by some means of intelligence or other battlefield communication and coordination. You don't seem to understand much about what happens and takes place on a battlefield. Israel can't have ground forces everywhere at all times to get to Hamas command facilities, Hamas military staging points, or to Hamas rocket launch sites... there are all sorts of military targets happening on a battlefield that Israel is not going to give up their technological advantage to engaging those targets. You are making excuses for Hamas, encouraging them to hide behind people so you can demand Israel just take a beating trying to get to them as if it will be any less bloody when they do get there and still have to fight with small arms. I suppose you think civilians killed with bullets are more noble than by a bomb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted May 20 Report Share Posted May 20 (edited) Much as I dislike Isreal's policies in the occupied territories (sic), the decision is nuts; and down this path ICC will rule itself out of relevance and quite possibly, existence in no time at all. Two glaring problems with the ruling: 1. Disproportionality: there's no arrest warrant for Putin's defense minister and top generals. 2. Misassociation: organizers of war crimes and genocidal acts are judged on equal terms with those who were responsible, by the national law to defend the country against them. And as a cherry, is that the same South Africa that initiated this ruling, that for so long agonized if it's going to arrest Putin under the same international law? Can we have it - the law, both ways? Is that how they understand and interpret the word? Edited May 20 by myata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 20 Report Share Posted May 20 8 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: This is fair. Both sides have committed crimes against humanity, killing defenseless women and children. Not only the two leaders but those who carried out the crimes should also be put on trail and if guilty then punished severely. Hamas crimes was much more brutal. They targeted purposely the defenseless civilian population of Israel and raped women and brutally murdered defenseless civilians. For the record can you list these crimes against humanity, and or if war crimes were committed... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted May 21 Report Share Posted May 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: For the record can you list these crimes against humanity, and or if war crimes were committed... No Israel did not commit crimes against humanity but Hamas clearly did. The part on Netanyahu arrest warrant is ridiculous. But the former Israeli PM Menachem Begin should be the one with arrest warrant if he was alive. After reading user's post I take back my initial assessment of Israel committing crimes against humanity (only number 2 listed below likely applies to them but not number 1) though they have killed thousands of civilians without targeting them. But one may call it self defense rather than crime against humanity. As why Hamas did committed crime against humanity. 1- They purposely targeted civilians 2- They killed unarmed civilian in cold blood. 3- There are evidence (not proven yet) that They raped women and beheaded children. I happen to believe all of above, evidence or not. Edited May 21 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted May 21 Report Share Posted May 21 (edited) Libbies and gentlemen, Welcome to war. Hammas declared war on Israel. I don't care why they did it. They attacked in a very brutal and frankly disgusting fashion. Thus Israel has every right to destroy Hammas and those in Gaza who support Hammas...which is apparently all of them. Israel must clear the Gaza Strip of all remnants of Hammas or a decade from now, they'll have the same crap going on. They would have been completely justified in carpet bombing that strip on October 8th. In leveling it to rubble completely. They chose not to. The Palestinians can count themselves lucky. IMO, the only solution left, is to herd the Palestinians into Egypt and slam the door shut permanently one achieved. And that is exactly what they asked for when they declared war on a superior military force. Welcome to war. Edited May 21 by Nationalist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted May 21 Report Share Posted May 21 2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: No Israel did not commit crimes against humanity but Hamas clearly did. The part on Netanyahu arrest warrant is ridiculous. But the former Israeli PM Menachem Begin should be the one with arrest warrant if he was alive. After reading user's post I take back my initial assessment of Israel committing crimes against humanity (only number 2 listed below likely applies to them but not number 1) though they have killed thousands of civilians without targeting them. But one may call it self defense rather than crime against humanity. As why Hamas did committed crime against humanity. 1- They purposely targeted civilians 2- They killed unarmed civilian in cold blood. 3- There are evidence (not proven yet) that They raped women and beheaded children. I happen to believe all of above, evidence or not. i personally think the ICC has overstepped it's bounds here, with over 3 dozen conflicts ongoing today, they have singled out Israel...like any international organization these days, if it involves the jewish people it needs to be condemned...It is funny that the IRGC/ sudan, etc etc is not mentioned for crimes against humanity... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted May 21 Report Share Posted May 21 (edited) 8 hours ago, Army Guy said: with over 3 dozen conflicts ongoing today, they have singled out Israel A major open war, an unprovoked full scale aggression is in its third year in Europe and yet the defense minister of the aggressor state is not charged with any of the uncounted crimes including razing to the ground of numerous settlements and several cities. "Selective justice" cannot be allowed he (the prosecutor Karim Khan) said. Ohoh. How far is it from solemn to outright ridiculous? He also choose to ignore (select) that totalitarian states of our time have learned how to weaponize, through incessant propaganda of hatred and selective violence, almost entire populations. Is it not incredibly "selective" to just ignore this obvious fact and pretend that some abstract holy paper demands the victim fighting for her very survival to fight with hands tied and "experts" watching her every step, having done nothing to prevent or stop the aggression? What would the reaction be if he came up with this idea in 1943 and 1944? The take: with decisions like this, ICC is driving itself out of relevance and no external help is needed. Edited May 21 by myata 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted May 21 Report Share Posted May 21 10 hours ago, Nationalist said: And that is exactly what they asked for when they declared war on a superior military force. Now, considering your position on Putin's war of aggression, presumably also "superior force" it's clear that in that view, it's superiority that dictates the right. It is just wrong to attack - or resist a clear unprovoked aggression of a presumably superior adversary. Hamas was wrong to attack; Ukraine is wrong to defend herself. Aka "the might is the right". Congrats on the ultimate clarity. Don't resist that bully, he is superior. Just give in and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted May 22 Report Share Posted May 22 On 5/20/2024 at 12:02 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said: If they really want to avoid civilian suffering then Israel must stop bombing indiscriminately and randomly and instead send their soldiers in to fight Hamas terrorists one by one. This will of course cause a lot more casualties on Israel side but they wish to minimize their own casualty at the expense of other civilians. The IDF is not bombing indiscriminately and randomly. They use precision guided munitions, and give plenty of advance notice for people to evacuate. Notice that the ICC didn't bother to lay charges against Sinwar immediately after the latest Hamas attack, they chose to lay charges against Netanyahu at the same time to create the impression there is a moral equivalence. There isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted May 22 Report Share Posted May 22 (edited) On 5/20/2024 at 8:50 AM, User said: It is not a war crime to know you will kill innocent women and children when they are military targets. Imagine writing this and thinking you're on the side of the good guys. Quote If Hamas puts rockets in a school and Israel blows them up and happens to kill children, that is Hamas war crime, not Israel. That is not murder. Nor is war a measurement of equal proportions of dead... otherwise wars would never be won. I keep hearing these kinds of claims being made but I have yet to see any actual evidence, we're just supposed to take Israel's word for these things, which is worth zilch. Israel routinely targets civilians (including journalists and aid workers) and lies about it. Quote My assessments are more than fair, they are based on logic, reason, and the actual laws of war. Israel goes out of their way to avoid civilian deaths, but they are not bound by any morals or laws of war to avoid them all because Hamas is hiding behind them. You contradict yourself here. Edited May 22 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted May 22 Report Share Posted May 22 (edited) 57 minutes ago, ironstone said: The IDF is not bombing indiscriminately and randomly. They use precision guided munitions, and give plenty of advance notice for people to evacuate. Do you think a 500lb laser guided bomb dropped on an apartment complex is going to kill fewer civilians than a 500lb dumb bomb, good lord. Or there was the time they used "precision guided munitions" to kill every single member of the World Central Kitchen relief team in a succession of strikes. Edited May 22 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 22 Author Report Share Posted May 22 3 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Imagine writing this and thinking you're on the side of the good guys. I don't have to imagine. The good guys don't hide behind women and children like you support and encourage. When Hamas hides behind them, they turn them into military targets. You encourage this cowardly behavior because you sit here expecting Israel not to fight a war against Hamas because they hide behind their people. 10 minutes ago, Black Dog said: I keep hearing these kinds of claims being made but I have yet to see any actual evidence, we're just supposed to take Israel's word for these things, which is worth zilch. Israel routinely targets civilians (including journalists and aid workers) and lies about it. OK Hamas defender. This is not an Israeli source, although I could spam this thread with plenty of pictures and videos they have provided during this war, too... https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools Here you go: Hamas caught firing rockets from next to UN facilities, schools - IDF https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-769653 "Hamas has placed its rocket launchers next to schools, UN facilities, mosques, and kindergartens, with the IDF publishing aerial footage showing the proximity of the launchers to civilian facilities on Sunday." Enough of your dumb games faking ignorance on this stuff. 14 minutes ago, Black Dog said: You contradict yourself here. No, I did not. The laws of war allow for the targeting of civilian infrastructure when they are military targets. You don't get to put your anti-aircraft guns on the roof of a Hospital to shoot down enemy planes and then cry it is a war crime when they blow up the Hospital to stop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 22 Author Report Share Posted May 22 19 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Do you think a 500lb laser guided bomb dropped on an apartment complex is going to kill fewer civilians than a 500lb dumb bomb, good lord. Yes. When you precisely target a specific building based on the intelligence you have regarding how fewer civilians if any are in that particular building, less people will be killed than by trying to drop a dumb bomb and maybe blowing up a different building with more people inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted May 22 Report Share Posted May 22 1 hour ago, Black Dog said: Do you think a 500lb laser guided bomb dropped on an apartment complex is going to kill fewer civilians than a 500lb dumb bomb, good lord. Or there was the time they used "precision guided munitions" to kill every single member of the World Central Kitchen relief team in a succession of strikes. You make no distinction between dropping precision guided munitions and indiscriminate bombing? I guess you just don't understand. And the reason the IDF might drop a bomb on that apartment complex might just be because Hamas places rocket launchers or mortars there? If there are civilians in that apartment complex, then that's on Hamas for not letting them leave after they've been warned. https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613 https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-784307 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted May 22 Report Share Posted May 22 25 minutes ago, ironstone said: You make no distinction between dropping precision guided munitions and indiscriminate bombing? I guess you just don't understand. Depends on the target, doesn't it. Like I said, they used precision munitions to methodically wipe out an entire team of aid workers not that long ago. Quote And the reason the IDF might drop a bomb on that apartment complex might just be because Hamas places rocket launchers or mortars there? If there are civilians in that apartment complex, then that's on Hamas for not letting them leave after they've been warned. I thin levelling an entire apartment complex full of people because a team of people are launching shitty homemade rockets or mortars is a direct contravention of the principle of proportionality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted May 22 Report Share Posted May 22 1 hour ago, User said: I don't have to imagine. The good guys don't hide behind women and children like you support and encourage. When Hamas hides behind them, they turn them into military targets. You encourage this cowardly behavior because you sit here expecting Israel not to fight a war against Hamas because they hide behind their people. That's not how it works you jackoff. Quote OK Hamas defender. OK dupe. Quote This is not an Israeli source, although I could spam this thread with plenty of pictures and videos they have provided during this war, too... https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools Oh you found an example from a decade ago, that must mean every single Israeli strike is against a legit target. lol. Quote "Hamas has placed its rocket launchers next to schools, UN facilities, mosques, and kindergartens, with the IDF publishing aerial footage showing the proximity of the launchers to civilian facilities on Sunday." The IDF also published images showing a command bunker under a hospital that were fake as hell. Again, they have as much credibility as Hamas. Quote No, I did not. The laws of war allow for the targeting of civilian infrastructure when they are military targets. You don't get to put your anti-aircraft guns on the roof of a Hospital to shoot down enemy planes and then cry it is a war crime when they blow up the Hospital to stop it. You also don;t get to blow up a hospital and then pretend it was a military target. 1 hour ago, User said: Yes. When you precisely target a specific building based on the intelligence you have regarding how fewer civilians if any are in that particular building, less people will be killed than by trying to drop a dumb bomb and maybe blowing up a different building with more people inside. You're probably one of these a-holes who thinks it's ok to level an entire building full of civilians if there's one Hamas meber inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted May 22 Report Share Posted May 22 48 minutes ago, Black Dog said: I thin levelling an entire apartment complex full of people because a team of people are launching shitty homemade rockets or mortars is a direct contravention of the principle of proportionality. Please enlighten us and describe in precise terms how the IDF is supposed to take out those rockets and mortars if Hamas doesn't let their own people leave. Or are you suggesting that the IDF should not do anything and just let Hamas fire away to their hearts content? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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