‘Summer of discontent’ coming over public service in-office order: unions (trudeau chooses this hill to die on)

[CdnFox]

https://globalnews.ca/news/10482632/federal-public-service-workers-fight-in-office-mandate/

Canada’s largest public service unions are threatening a “summer of discontent” after Ottawa mandated that federal civil servants return to the office three days a week.

“The Trudeau Liberal government better prepare itself,” Public Service Alliance of Canada (PSAC) president Chris Aylward warned at a news conference in Ottawa Wednesday.

The Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, which is effectively a central nerve agency for federal departments, updated its policy last week requiring employees work from the office three days a week, instead of two, starting Sept. 9.

[CdnFox]

I do not understand in the slightest why this is a battle Trudeau wants to die on.

It's obvious that the unions and their people want this.

Further, there doesn't seem to be a good reason not to give it to them. All of the reports indicate that not only with government service but with most industries that are able to work remotely productivity goes up.

It reduces pollution because there's less transportation. It's significantly reduces the strain and cities on transit and roadway infrastructure. It doesn't cost the government anything.

In fact it reduces the amount of space the government needs in offices and other stuff.

The only negative comment I've heard at all is that downtown Coors don't like it when the employees aren't coming downtown anymore because there's less foot traffic for their businesses. But that seems like a kind of stupid reason for the government to say no.

So why in god's name is Trudeau alienating and infuriating a huge number of government people who would otherwise be likely to vote for him? He's already honked off the first nations, he's already cheezed off the environmentalists, He has infuriated the youth who are looking to buy homes and afford food, so now it's absolutely critical for him to do something pointless to aggravate one of the last remaining groups that might stand beside him?

Fun fact, he spends a lot of his time working from home.

[PIK]

Cons will probably do the same, so between the 2 most will still vote liberal. Many Canadians are tired of the PS concerns and want them back in the office. 

[myata]

Public service that works from home in-between the important stuff. Doctors, police etc love to follow the suit (same pay). Is that the hill the country's public domain is going to die on?

[ExFlyer]

Well, there it is. The Union runs the country LOL

I live in Ottawa and am very secure in saying since the pandemic shut down, the burbs have been a traffic jamb in the burbs every day. Most workers are public service and they are all out of their offices (homes) instead of working. Shit is taking longer because there is no one working. If you want to complain about slow public service,. that is it, no one in the office.

I know many, they are our neighbours, friends and kids of friends. They all love "working" from home. They turn on their computers in the morning and then do whatever they want.  They do not have to pay for daycare, for transit, for parking, for work clothes, for lunch and they got a raise because... they were underpaid???

I know managers that have to go into the office 4 times a week...they have no one to manage LOL They have online meetings and some employees just do not even log on and the managers cannot do anything about it.

Lazy assed public servants are even more lazy now and have the union backing up their unproductive lifestyle.   

Pure BS!!!.

Edited May 9, 2024 by ExFlyer

[myata]

Just give us more dough and let's all work less. What could go wrong?!

[CdnFox]

13 hours ago, PIK said:

Cons will probably do the same, so between the 2 most will still vote liberal. Many Canadians are tired of the PS concerns and want them back in the office. 

I rather doubt they will. 

Like i said - its'  an easy and free win.  And all they have to do is say 'it'll be up to the local deparment heads/managers/etc but we'll allow it and they'll get all the glory with the workers and if the workers are forced back it'll be their local boss's fault.  

They can even use it as a chip in the next round of bargaining which will come up during their term i believe. 

That's assuming Justin doesn't cave of course. 

Strangely - there's already polling and other information that strongly points towards the CPC and the Unions getting along a lot better than you'd normally expect, and the unions may well be turning away from Justin. And i don't just mean their members but the unions themselves. 

And no canadians are sitting around thinking "gosh, of only public workers were back in the office.... " .   sorry.  Nobody cares except bitter people who wish they could work from home, and then only for the 5 minutes they're talking about it. 

 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

Well, there it is. The Union runs the country LOL

I live in Ottawa and am very secure in saying since the pandemic shut down, the burbs have been a traffic jamb in the burbs every day. Most workers are public service and they are all out of their offices (homes) instead of working. Shit is taking longer because there is no one working. If you want to complain about slow public service,. that is it, no one in the office.

Every single study shows the opposite is true. Not just public sector but private as well. Remote or hybrid work is more efficient. The really 'negative' ones finds there's no difference and the majority note a productivity benefit. 

Research to Insights: Working from home in Canada (statcan.gc.ca)

Does remote work boost productivity? Here's what the data says (axios.com)

Work from home doesn’t seem to affect productivity at all: Fed study | Financial Post

 

So - nobody's seeing a decline. Many report improvements. 

Interestingly workers often report working more hours - but they're happier. People don't have to get up early and "get ready" which saves them half an hour every day, there's no packing up and commute time then putting your stuff away when you get home and that saves people about an hour - hour and a half on average, (cnd average is 26 minutes actual commuting, then get up to the office get set up for work etc and reverse going home). 

Do you have any stats that show that productivity has suffered?

No? Just making it up because "Muh feels"? 

 Yeah. Thought so   

[myata]

Studies have shown that PS has been more productive in Canada, in the last three years? That waiting times dropped? Services became more efficient and higher quality, for the citizens?

Where? In which alternative universe? What's the number to call?

[CdnFox]

8 minutes ago, myata said:

Studies have shown that PS has been more productive in Canada, in the last three years?

No, that the workers have.  The services themselves tend to have problems.

Quote

 

That waiting times dropped?  Services became more efficient and higher quality, for the citizens?

 

 

Ahhhhh- so you think that if there's a problem with the services of a gov't agency then it must be ALL about the INDIVIDUAL WORKER!!!  It's got NOTHING to do with how many workers there are, or how they're organized, or what tools are there to support them or anything else!! IT's not the GOV"TS fault that there's not enough people to deal with the passport issues-  the individual WORKERS are to blame for not having enough workers!!!!

Sigh. 

How a department is running and it's efficiency is largely a structural problem. Thats the responsibility of the bosses.  However - even within a bad structure individuals can still be more (or less) productive than then used to be. 

It's a heartbreaking indictment of our educational system that i'd have to explain that to you. 

Quote

h alternative universe? What's the number to call?

I'm sure that you have any number of alternate universes going on in that head. 

[Moonbox]

19 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It's obvious that the unions and their people want this.

What the unions and their people want is typically to do the least amount of work for the most amount of money.  😉

19 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Further, there doesn't seem to be a good reason not to give it to them. All of the reports indicate that not only with government service but with most industries that are able to work remotely productivity goes up.

Not true at all.  A lot of the early research showed promise, but it wasn't rigorous and was very survey/perception-based (like how productive workers felt they were, and how much longer they were "working" without their commute).  

Since then a lot of research has been released showing the opposite.  Remote work seems to have better results on productivity the higher skilled the work is, and/or the more independently task-oriented, measurable and organized it is within a office. 

The public sector is not exactly known for its motivated and accountable workforce, so you end up with all of the pitfalls of remote work while lacking some of the biggest benefits (namely more flexible and less costly hires).  A public sector union monopoly is probably therefore the least suitable environment for 100% remote.   

Edited May 9, 2024 by Moonbox

[ExFlyer]

2 hours ago, myata said:

Studies have shown that PS has been more productive in Canada, in the last three years? That waiting times dropped? Services became more efficient and higher quality, for the citizens?

Where? In which alternative universe? What's the number to call?

They had to hire an additional 100,000 to get the work done. The Unions should be happy to get all those union dues LOL

I wish they did a study or poll to find out what the public really thinks

Edited May 9, 2024 by ExFlyer

[CdnFox]

29 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

What the unions and their people want is typically to do the least amount of work for the most amount of money.  😉

Sure   and i'd add with the 'least amount of effort".  And this would fall into that category - it's less effort to commute all the way to the living room rather than all the way to the office.  So it's in keeping with their general philosophy.  

But that doesnt' make it a bad idea.  If they're more productive, spend less money, damage the envoronment less, etc.....

Some people will want to work in the office, some people prefer it and for some teams it may not be appropriate. But it should be an option where it is appropriate. 

Quote

 

Not true at all.  A lot of the early research showed promise, but it wasn't rigorous and was very survey/perception-based (like how productive workers felt they were, and how much longer they were "working" without their commute).  

Since then a lot of research has been released showing the opposite.  Remote work seems to have better results on productivity the higher skilled the work is, and/or the more independently task-oriented, measurable and organized it is within a office. 

 

Ok - lets see it.  I haven't seen anything saying they had less productivity. But i'm sure i might have missed something.

Quote

The public sector is not exactly known for its motivated and accountable workforce, so you end up with all of the pitfalls of remote work while lacking some of the biggest benefits (namely more flexible and less costly hires).  A public sector union monopoly is probably therefore the least suitable environment for 100% remote.   

My experience with people is that it's just as easy to waste time and socialze in the office. It's not hard to measure a person's output - X number of letters a day, Y number of complaints handled, etc etc.  People who are not achieving can be told to come into the office for 'guidance' for a few months if they can't reach an acceptable level of output. 

If their job is such that you absolutely cannot track their performance then fine, maybe that one doesnt make sense but i'd also point out if their output is impossible to see - why are we employing them in the first place   

 

[Moonbox]

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Ok - lets see it.  I haven't seen anything saying they had less productivity. But i'm sure i might have missed something.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bryanrobinson/2023/08/12/remote-work-might-not-be-as-productive-as-once-thought-new-studies-show/?sh=364a73563e7a

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-01-04/2024-year-employers-clamp-down-on-remote-work-not-so-fast

There are lots of others, including a good one from the Economist that's locked behind a paywall.  

Note that nobody is saying remote work is always bad.  Most are saying some hybrid model looks best.  

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

My experience with people is that it's just as easy to waste time and socialze in the office. It's not hard to measure a person's output - X number of letters a day, Y number of complaints handled, etc etc. 

It actually is.  Unless you can track specific, measurable outcomes (like sales, or number of calls handled or something), it's quite hard to objectively measure people in a lot of cases.  

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bryanrobinson/2023/08/12/remote-work-might-not-be-as-productive-as-once-thought-new-studies-show/?sh=364a73563e7a

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-01-04/2024-year-employers-clamp-down-on-remote-work-not-so-fast

uhh - from your own sources: 

“While there is clear data over the past several quarters that worker productivity is going down, attributing it to WFH is so far an assumption,” Yarbrough says. “In fact, there are many studies that show that productivity has in fact been enhanced by hybrid work rather than the opposite being the case. Even more interesting is how WFH has contributed to a more inclusive work environment, especially for women

And from your other source:

Looking ahead we predict working from home will continue to grow because of the expansion in research and development into new technologies to improve remote working. Hence, the pandemic generated both a one-off jump and a longer-run growth acceleration in working from home.

You obviously didn't read them. They're both pretty positive about working from home - especially hybrid. But even full time. 

I see you're continuing your trend of posting evidence that proves MY arguments rather than your own  

And  while you claim my sources were older data and newer data shows different -  both of yours are actually OLDER than my sources.  Mine were all 2024. 

Yours were both from 2023. 

And all the latest ones i've found agree with me. 

SO if anything it would be more accurate to say that the OLD data suggested there may be some issue with FULL time WFH  but newer data shows that in fact it is more productive. 

And yours were actually just working papers, pr opinion articles not research.  The stuff from statcan is actual research based. 

 

 

So lets recap.  Your OLDER data says that hybrid works well and  with tweaking Full Time  WFH is the way of the future and will expand because it actually works with the right tweaks, and your other source says it would be wrong to assume that any of the supposed productivity drop had anything to do with working from home. 

My more recent sources, based on actual research indicate that sure enough it's turned out that productivity is actually up - not to mention quality of life, and there's less pollution etc. 

So once again  it seems that when it's done right remote working is a net benefit all around.  

Ya gotta keep with the times man  

 

 

[exPS]

On 5/8/2024 at 7:45 PM, CdnFox said:

Canada’s largest public service unions are threatening a “summer of discontent” after Ottawa mandated that federal civil servants return to the office three days a week.

They should be going to work 5 days a week like every other real working person. And if they want the 3-day a week program, they can go into work Monday, Wednesday and Friday, but I guess they would want to go to work Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday for a 4-day weeked. What whiners!

And since this working from home, that is another joke...the work part that is, saves them money, so at contract time, offer them less of a raise.

[exPS]

19 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I wish they did a study or poll to find out what the public really thinks

Exactly! That brings up the point of voting a PM in based on his platforms he talks about prior to an election. After that, they can do anything they want without asking their employer aka the citizens of Canada who pay the bills. If I can get onto the CRA and Banking web sites, let the people vote on-line on what the govenment should implement. After all, they are there to implement the needs of the people and nothing else.

You know when I was a flight instructor for many years, I would have had a really tough time working from home and our hours were long as in 11 hours a day (08:00 - 19:00, not some public servant's 4 hour day after breaks and lunch time.

[exPS]

On 5/9/2024 at 10:27 AM, ExFlyer said:

Well, there it is. The Union runs the country LOL

I live in Ottawa and am very secure in saying since the pandemic shut down, the burbs have been a traffic jamb in the burbs every day. Most workers are public service and they are all out of their offices (homes) instead of working. Shit is taking longer because there is no one working. If you want to complain about slow public service,. that is it, no one in the office.

I know many, they are our neighbours, friends and kids of friends. They all love "working" from home. They turn on their computers in the morning and then do whatever they want.  They do not have to pay for daycare, for transit, for parking, for work clothes, for lunch and they got a raise because... they were underpaid???

I know managers that have to go into the office 4 times a week...they have no one to manage LOL They have online meetings and some employees just do not even log on and the managers cannot do anything about it.

Lazy assed public servants are even more lazy now and have the union backing up their unproductive lifestyle.   

Pure BS!!!.

How all very true!

By the way, I noticed the traffic during off times and it is heavy. Those silly servants must be working from the car. LOL 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, exPS said:

They should be going to work 5 days a week like every other real working person.

About 30 percent of the population works remotely.  So... by 'every other' you mean 'some'.

And why?

Quote

 

And if they want the 3-day a week program, they can go into work Monday, Wednesday and Friday, but I guess they would want to go to work Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday for a 4-day weeked. What whiners!

And since this working from home, that is another joke...the work part that is, saves them money, so at contract time, offer them less of a raise.

 

Well actually that is something they were prepared to agree to.  The savings in gas, car insurance and maintenance, clothing etc etc is substantial. 

But the problem isn't that they wouldn't agree to it, the problem is the OTHER workers who CAN'T work from home are demanding a similar 'raise' to equal the 'benefits' the at home people are getting.  Even if you DON"T offer the stay at homes more money, the others want even more because they still have those costs 

Which is a bull crap argument but it's why the gov't has issues with it 

[ExFlyer]

23 hours ago, myata said:

Studies have shown that PS has been more productive in Canada, in the last three years? That waiting times dropped? Services became more efficient and higher quality, for the citizens?

Where? In which alternative universe? What's the number to call?

Union studies LOL

[Nationalist]

Who didn't see this coming?

I can resolve this. Make the rule, set the date to begin and fire any who don't abide by the rule.

[CdnFox]

20 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Who didn't see this coming?

I can resolve this. Make the rule, set the date to begin and fire any who don't abide by the rule.

Ahhhh - so just like we did with the vaccine!!  Great plan.

[Nationalist]

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Ahhhh - so just like we did with the vaccine!!  Great plan.

Different in my view.

Those bureaucracies need some serious trimming. This would trim.

Edited May 10, 2024 by Nationalist

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Different in my view.

But not in reality. In fact there's significant similarities between them. 

Quote

Those bureaucracies need some serious trimming. This would trim.

You're not wrong but this sure isn't the way to do it. You trim by making intelligent decisions about where you're going to do it and how - not by just honking people off and hoping they'll quit. 

If you don't have a good reason for something like this then what happens is they don't quit.  They come back to the office. And they're furious. So the ghost - they do as little as possible, they organize things such that they can pass the buck when stuff doesn't work out, and on top of it we get to pay more as taxpayers for their office space and support infrastructure. 

And they'll use it do demand more wages.  "Hey we took less during covid because we got to stay at home and save money but NOW...."

 

[Nationalist]

10 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But not in reality. In fact there's significant similarities between them. 

You're not wrong but this sure isn't the way to do it. You trim by making intelligent decisions about where you're going to do it and how - not by just honking people off and hoping they'll quit. 

If you don't have a good reason for something like this then what happens is they don't quit.  They come back to the office. And they're furious. So the ghost - they do as little as possible, they organize things such that they can pass the buck when stuff doesn't work out, and on top of it we get to pay more as taxpayers for their office space and support infrastructure. 

And they'll use it do demand more wages.  "Hey we took less during covid because we got to stay at home and save money but NOW...."

 

Let 'em be furious. Fck 'em. 

I know those unions. They promote laziness and nobody is responsible for anything. You go to the passport office in Toronto and there's staff who don't speak English. It's sickening.