Ukraine Can't Win the War

[taxme]

On 7/16/2025 at 12:56 PM, User said:

I did not say they invaded all of Ukraine, but they are trying. At the outset of the war, they went straight for Kiev and started to surround the city until they overextended their logistics and got pushed back. 

You did not say why. That is the question. Why did you ask and bring up something that had nothing to do with anything. Just saying you wanted my opinion doesn't answer why. Why do you want my opinion. 

No, I am already engaged in one stupid discussion with you, why are you trying to change the subject?

I have had this stupid discussion many times before. It is no problem for me. 

 

Typical response coming from your typical Zionist. It is Israel that bombed the hell out of the USS Liberty, where at the time the American flag was flying, which resulted in the murder and death of 34 sailors. I just wanted everyone to know that Israel killed those 34 sailors on purpose. Some friend, eh? It is believed that Israel tried to make it appear ae though Egypt was behind the bombing. The sad part about it all is that President Johnson at the time did nothing about it. Only Israel can do something like that and get away with it. Shocking and sad indeed. All i wanted was for you to comment on it, which i knew that you would not. Can't make Israel look bad. ☹️

[User]

28 minutes ago, taxme said:

Typical response coming from your typical Zionist. It is Israel that bombed the hell out of the USS Liberty, where at the time the American flag was flying, which resulted in the murder and death of 34 sailors. I just wanted everyone to know that Israel killed those 34 sailors on purpose. Some friend, eh? It is believed that Israel tried to make it appear ae though Egypt was behind the bombing. The sad part about it all is that President Johnson at the time did nothing about it. Only Israel can do something like that and get away with it. Shocking and sad indeed. All i wanted was for you to comment on it, which i knew that you would not. Can't make Israel look bad. ☹️

why are you trying to change the subject?

[taxme]

18 hours ago, User said:

why are you trying to change the subject?

Why not? I thought that it would be interesting to talk about the Liberty at the same time as to what this topic is all about.

So, i guess that what you are saying here is that you have no problem or comment about Israel bombing the hell out of the USS Liberty than? The FBI even said many decades ago that Israel was no friend of America. Just saying. 😇

[User]

29 minutes ago, taxme said:

Why not? I thought that it would be interesting to talk about the Liberty at the same time as to what this topic is all about.

So, i guess that what you are saying here is that you have no problem or comment about Israel bombing the hell out of the USS Liberty than? The FBI even said many decades ago that Israel was no friend of America. Just saying. 😇

You want me to answer, then I want to know why you want to talk about this, why in this thread when it has nothing to do with anything. 

 

[taxme]

4 minutes ago, User said:

You want me to answer, then I want to know why you want to talk about this, why in this thread when it has nothing to do with anything. 

 

Forget it, chucky boy. I just wanted to see if you were brave enough to give your opinion about what your beloved Israel did to the USS Liberty that murdered 34 innocent American sailors. The Israeli jets were trying to sink the Liberty. I just wanted to let others here know that Israel is no friend of America. Even the FBI has said that Israel is no friend of America. 

Just saying. 😁

[User]

9 minutes ago, taxme said:

Forget it

OK. You were the one incessantly droning on about it. 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

The two sides define victory or even a desirable outcome in a very different way. For Ukraine, survival is the goal, preferably with its territory intact. For Russia, the conquest of Ukraine is the aim. So Ukraine wins by surviving which I think it will but perhaps with not all of its eastern territory - I can’t see Russia taking the whole country any more. And Russian resolve is inherently more fragile. If one particular individual follows the multitudes he has sent into the meat grinder, peace would be much easier to find.  

[Scott75]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The two sides define victory or even a desirable outcome in a very different way. For Ukraine, survival is the goal, preferably with its territory intact. For Russia, the conquest of Ukraine is the aim. So Ukraine wins by surviving which I think it will but perhaps with not all of its eastern territory - I can’t see Russia taking the whole country any more.

I -can- see Russia taking the whole country, at least temporarily, but only if Ukraine continues to refuse to negotiate. I remember an anecdote about a Russian reporter asking the Russian side after negotiations if it was true that the next time Russia engaged in negotiations with Ukraine, they'd be demanding 5 regions instead of 4. The Russian negotiators apparently replied, "no, we'll be demanding 8". I honestly think it's possible that Russia might still settle for the 4 regions it already mostly controls and even give back some territory in other regions it has bits of, but the longer this war drags on, the more Ukrainian territory Russia takes. I believe I remember another Russian official saying something to the effect that territory Russia takes at this point, it keeps. Again, I think it's not set in stone, but I can certainly understand the logic that territory Russia has had to lose men to take is not something they will easily give up. 

[User]

1 hour ago, Scott75 said:

I -can- see Russia taking the whole country, at least temporarily, but only if Ukraine continues to refuse to negotiate.

What a joke. What a sad, pathetic, lying joke. 

Ukraine has said they are ready to negotiate, it is Russia that continues to press the war on. 

 

[Scott75]

6 hours ago, User said:

  

8 hours ago, Scott75 said:

I -can- see Russia taking the whole country, at least temporarily, but only if Ukraine continues to refuse to negotiate. I remember an anecdote about a Russian reporter asking the Russian side after negotiations if it was true that the next time Russia engaged in negotiations with Ukraine, they'd be demanding 5 regions instead of 4. The Russian negotiators apparently replied, "no, we'll be demanding 8". I honestly think it's possible that Russia might still settle for the 4 regions it already mostly controls and even give back some territory in other regions it has bits of, but the longer this war drags on, the more Ukrainian territory Russia takes. I believe I remember another Russian official saying something to the effect that territory Russia takes at this point, it keeps. Again, I think it's not set in stone, but I can certainly understand the logic that territory Russia has had to lose men to take is not something they will easily give up. 

What a joke. What a sad, pathetic, lying joke. 

Ukraine has said they are ready to negotiate, it is Russia that continues to press the war on. 

Not a joke, though I now think I should have been more specific. Ukraine refuses to accept Russia's current terms for a peaceful settlement, just as they refused to accept much better terms close to the start of the war. American Professor and Statesman Jeffrey Sachs gets into some of the details in a speech he gave to the European Parliament a few months ago. Quoting from it:

**

When Zelensky said a few days after Russia’s invasion that Ukraine was ready for neutrality, a peace agreement was in reach. I know the details of this because I talked to key negotiators and mediators in detail and have learned much from public pronouncements of others. Shortly after the start of negotiations in March 2022, a document was exchanged between the parties that President Putin had approved, and that Lavrov had presented. This was being managed by the Turkish mediators. I flew to Ankara in the spring of 2022 to hear first-hand and in detail what happened in the mediation. The bottom-line is this: Ukraine walked away, unilaterally, from a near agreement.

End of the Ukraine War

Why did Ukraine walk away from the negotiations? Because the United States told them to and because the U.K. added icing to the cake by having BoJo [Boris Johnson, the former U.K. prime minister] go to Kyiv in early April to Ukraine to make the same point.

[U.K Prime Minister] Keir Starmer turns out to be even worse, even more of a warmonger. It’s unimaginable, but it is true. Boris Johnson explained, and you can find it on the web, that what’s at stake here is nothing less than Western hegemony! Not Ukraine but Western hegemony.

Michael von der Schulenberg and I met at the Vatican with a group of experts in Spring 2022, and we wrote a document explaining that nothing good can come out of continued war.  (The meeting at the Vatican was the Fraternal Economy Session on Jubilee 2025: “Hope in the Signs of the Times.”) 

Our group argued strenuously, but to no avail, that Ukraine should negotiate immediately, because delays will mean massive deaths, risk of nuclear escalation, and possibly an outright loss of the war.

I wouldn’t want to change one word from what we wrote then. Nothing was wrong in that document. Since the U.S. talked Ukraine out of the negotiations, perhaps one million Ukrainians have died or been severely wounded.

And American senators who are as nasty and cynical as imaginable say this is a wonderful expenditure of U.S. money because no Americans are dying. It’s the pure proxy war. One of our senators nearby New York State, Connecticut’s Richard Blumenthal, said this out loud. Mitt Romney said this out loud. It’s the best money America can spend. No Americans are dying. It’s unreal.

Now, just to bring us up to yesterday, the U.S. Ukraine Project has failed. The core idea of the project all along was that Russia would fold its hand. The core idea all along was Russia can’t resist, just as Zbigniew Brzezinski argued in 1997. The Americans thought the U.S. surely has the upper hand.

The U.S. will win because we’re going to bluff them. The Russians are not really going to fight. The Russians are really going to mobilize. We’ll deploy the economic “nuclear option” of cutting Russia out of SWIFT. That will destroy the economy. Our sanctions will bring Russia to their knees. The HIMARS will do them in. The ATACMS, the F-16s, will do them in. Honestly, I’ve listened to this kind of talk for more than 50 years. Our national security leaders have spoken nonsense for decades.

I begged the Ukrainians: stay neutral. Don’t listen to the Americans. I repeated to them the famous adage of Henry Kissinger, that to be an enemy of the United States is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal. Let me repeat that for Europe: To be an enemy of the United States is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal.

**

Full article:

https://consortiumnews.com/2025/02/27/jeffrey-sachs-the-geopolitics-of-peace/

It'll only get worse the longer Ukraine refuses to accept Russia's terms. 

[User]

15 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Not a joke, though I now think I should have been more specific.

Yes, a joke. 

What you want is for Ukraine to surrender. Not negotiate. 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

Here’s the guy who embodies the Ukrainian spirit. His opponents are invariably younger, taller and heavier but that doesn’t stop him:

Quote

After all he had done, and with almost desperate speculation as to who might be able to challenge him now, how did Usyk find the motivation to keep fighting? “Oh, listen, bro,” he said, as he made a distinction crucial to any clear understanding of his extraordinary achievements in and out of the ring, “I don’t have motivation. I have discipline. Motivation? It’s temporary. Today, for example, you have motivation. But tomorrow you wake up early and you don’t have motivation.”

He flashed his familiar gap‑toothed grin. “When I wake up early for training I never have motivation. I have only discipline. Motivation is needed only for amateur sportsmen – not for professional boxers. Amateur boxers might only work three times in a week. They say: ‘Oh, but today I don’t have motivation for training.’ Uh-uh. No, bro. Motivation is good but discipline is better.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/jul/20/essence-oleksandr-usyk-daniel-dubois-boxing-heavyweight-unification-title-fight-wembley
 

Glory to Ukraine. 

 

 

 

[Scott75]

22 minutes ago, User said:

15 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Not a joke, though I now think I should have been more specific.

Yes, a joke. 

What you want is for Ukraine to surrender. Not negotiate.

No, were Ukraine to surrender, Russia would just do whatever it likes in Ukraine. This may happen at some point if Ukraine continues to avoid agreeing to a negotiated settlement with Russia, but at this stage, it still has the option to reach a negotiated settlement. The terms they'd need to accept for such a negotiation to succeed are outlined in a speech Jeffrey Sachs gave earlier this year to European Parliament. This speech can be seen here:

https://consortiumnews.com/2025/02/27/jeffrey-sachs-the-geopolitics-of-peace/

 

I'll leave with part of what he had to say to European Parliament:

**

Let me end with a few words about President Donald Trump. Trump does not want Biden’s losing hand. This is why Trump and President Putin are likely to agree to end the war. Even if Europe continues with its warmongering, it won’t matter. The war is ending. So, please, get it out of your system. Please tell your colleagues. “It’s over.” It’s over because Trump doesn’t want to hold on to a loser. The one that will be saved by the negotiations taking place right now is Ukraine.

**

[User]

16 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

No, were Ukraine to surrender, Russia would just do whatever it likes in Ukraine.

You just stipulated that "negotiations" were basically to accept everything Russia is demanding. That is surrender. That is not a negotiation. 

 

[Aristides]

This is cute.

https://euromaidanpress.com/2025/07/16/texas-man-joins-russian-army-to-earn-respect-gets-lied-to-as-he-is-sent-to-front-line-instead-of-welding-job/

[Scott75]

19 hours ago, User said:

19 hours ago, Scott75 said:

No, were Ukraine to surrender, Russia would just do whatever it likes in Ukraine.

You just stipulated that "negotiations" were basically to accept everything Russia is demanding. That is surrender. That is not a negotiation.

No, surrender is when an army essentially agrees to do -whatever- another country wants. The other country doesn't even need to specify what the conditions are. I notice you cut off what I said -after- the bit about what surrender truly means. For the audience if not for you, I think it bear repeating:

**

[Ukraine may in fact ultimately surrender at] some point if Ukraine continues to avoid agreeing to a negotiated settlement with Russia, but at this stage, it still has the option to reach a negotiated settlement. The terms they'd need to accept for such a negotiation to succeed are outlined in a speech Jeffrey Sachs gave earlier this year to European Parliament. This speech can be seen here:

https://consortiumnews.com/2025/02/27/jeffrey-sachs-the-geopolitics-of-peace/

 

I'll leave with part of what he had to say to European Parliament:

**

Let me end with a few words about President Donald Trump. Trump does not want Biden’s losing hand. This is why Trump and President Putin are likely to agree to end the war. Even if Europe continues with its warmongering, it won’t matter. The war is ending. So, please, get it out of your system. Please tell your colleagues. “It’s over.” It’s over because Trump doesn’t want to hold on to a loser. The one that will be saved by the negotiations taking place right now is Ukraine.

**

 

So, you may ask, what would be "saved" if Ukraine accepts Russia's terms now? Lives. American Professor and Statesman Jeffrey Sachs shows that there is precedent here. From the same article as the quote above:

**

Michael von der Schulenberg and I met at the Vatican with a group of experts in Spring 2022, and we wrote a document explaining that nothing good can come out of continued war.  (The meeting at the Vatican was the Fraternal Economy Session on Jubilee 2025: “Hope in the Signs of the Times.”) 

Our group argued strenuously, but to no avail, that Ukraine should negotiate immediately, because delays will mean massive deaths, risk of nuclear escalation, and possibly an outright loss of the war.

I wouldn’t want to change one word from what we wrote then. Nothing was wrong in that document. Since the U.S. talked Ukraine out of the negotiations, perhaps one million Ukrainians have died or been severely wounded.

And American senators who are as nasty and cynical as imaginable say this is a wonderful expenditure of U.S. money because no Americans are dying. It’s the pure proxy war. One of our senators nearby New York State, Connecticut’s Richard Blumenthal, said this out loud. Mitt Romney said this out loud. It’s the best money America can spend. No Americans are dying. It’s unreal.

Now, just to bring us up to yesterday, the U.S. Ukraine Project has failed. The core idea of the project all along was that Russia would fold its hand. The core idea all along was Russia can’t resist, just as Zbigniew Brzezinski argued in 1997. The Americans thought the U.S. surely has the upper hand.

The U.S. will win because we’re going to bluff them. The Russians are not really going to fight. The Russians are really going to mobilize. We’ll deploy the economic “nuclear option” of cutting Russia out of SWIFT. That will destroy the economy. Our sanctions will bring Russia to their knees. The HIMARS will do them in. The ATACMS, the F-16s, will do them in. Honestly, I’ve listened to this kind of talk for more than 50 years. Our national security leaders have spoken nonsense for decades.

I begged the Ukrainians: stay neutral. Don’t listen to the Americans. I repeated to them the famous adage of Henry Kissinger, that to be an enemy of the United States is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal. Let me repeat that for Europe: To be an enemy of the United States is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal.

**

[User]

On 7/20/2025 at 12:16 AM, Scott75 said:

Ukraine refuses to accept Russia's current terms for a peaceful settlement,

This is not a negotiation, this is you saying Ukraine must give in to the demands. 
 

 

[Scott75]

54 minutes ago, User said:

  

On 7/19/2025 at 11:16 PM, Scott75 said:

Ukraine refuses to accept Russia's current terms for a peaceful settlement, just as they refused to accept much better terms close to the start of the war.

This is not a negotiation, this is you saying Ukraine must give in to the demands.

Ukraine has to recognize the facts on the ground. As Trump said a while ago, Ukraine just doesn't have the cards. Russia does. To extend the analogy, Ukraine hasn't yet put everything into the pot. It can still fold its hand and walk away with most of what it has left, giving a bit of the 4 regions Russia has claimed but hasn't yet completely taken and apparently getting -back- bits of other regions that Russia has begun to take. The alternative, to keep on raising the stakes by continuing to fight Russia, may well lead to the complete dissolution of Ukraine as a country. As I've mentioned before, Ukraine should have taken the deal Russia offered near the start of the war- Russia had been prepared to walk away from -everything- but Crimea at that point. Now, Russia's going to keep 4 more regions previously under Ukrainian control, but it can still get worse. And ofcourse there are all the Ukrainians that are dying as well. The longer Ukraine waits to negotiate an end to this, the worse things will get.

Edited July 21, 2025 by Scott75

[User]

5 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Ukraine has to recognize the facts on the ground.

Like I said, you are not interested in negotiation, but capitulation. 

 

[User]

10 hours ago, Scott75 said:

As Trump said a while ago, Ukraine just doesn't have the cards. Russia does.

You need to keep up. Trump is now preparing to authorize the sale of even more weapons to Europe so they can funnel them to Ukraine. Both offensive and defensive.

Its Russia that’s running out of time to negotiate now. 

[paxamericana]

I would caution against any rush to conclusion with the recent weapon delivery to Ukraine.

We are flooding the zone at muzzle velocity with our world agenda. Russia is not viewed as an American problem, it’s Europe. We much rather do business with Russia than to be adversaries. This isn’t to deny that Russia is coming for Europe’s lunch , we just simply don’t care. The European are in terminal decline and under Russian assault. This is the cost for American isolationism, a sentiment that is growing.

[Scott75]

On 7/21/2025 at 6:23 PM, User said:

  

On 7/21/2025 at 12:29 PM, Scott75 said:

Ukraine has to recognize the facts on the ground.

Like I said, you are not interested in negotiation, but capitulation.

What I'm interested in is Zelensky and his Administration waking up to reality. As Trump said not too long ago, they should never have started this war. They also should have negotiated a peace a long time ago. They didn't do either of these- now all they can do is negotiate a settlement wherein they can probably retain most of what they still have left. If they -don't- do that soon, I think it's quite possible that Ukraine as a country will cease to exist. Trump mentioned this possibility as well, way back in February:

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-may-russian-someday-trump-warns-zelensky-2029205

 

Food for thought.

 

[Scott75]

On 7/21/2025 at 10:53 PM, User said:

  

On 7/21/2025 at 12:29 PM, Scott75 said:

As Trump said a while ago, Ukraine just doesn't have the cards. Russia does.

You need to keep up. Trump is now preparing to authorize the sale of even more weapons to Europe so they can funnel them to Ukraine. Both offensive and defensive.

You notice how he made sure that -Europe- foot the bill? When it comes to Ukraine, i think Trump strongly suspects how this is going to end. He knows Ukraine doesn't have the cards, so he's trying to avoid putting anymore in the pot himself. What does it matter to him if Europe buys some weapons to continue this war with a foregone conclusion? Let them go broke, he's already moved on.

[Scott75]

On 7/22/2025 at 2:01 AM, paxamericana said:

I would caution against any rush to conclusion with the recent weapon delivery to Ukraine.

We are flooding the zone at muzzle velocity with our world agenda. Russia is not viewed as an American problem, it’s Europe. We much rather do business with Russia than to be adversaries. This isn’t to deny that Russia is coming for Europe’s lunch , we just simply don’t care. The European are in terminal decline and under Russian assault. This is the cost for American isolationism, a sentiment that is growing.

From what I've read, all Russia's done in Europe is ensure that Ukraine ceases to kill ethnic Russians and Russian speakers in Ukraine after 8 years without military pushback, starting in February, 2022. The war also ensures that Ukraine won't become a part of NATO. It's Europe itself that has severely damaged itself, by cutting off its access to cheap Russian energy. 

[User]

3 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Let them go broke, he's already moved on.

The point is that Russia isn’t assured anything here. Ukraine continues to get assistance. 

4 hours ago, Scott75 said:

They also should have negotiated a peace a long time ago.

Russia should never have started this war to begin with.