Nationalist Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 3 hours ago, Moonbox said: Yes it is. You're literally saying if that chart shows one country has bigger numbers than others, they can do whatever they want. They can invade anyone they like, and it's immoral to resist them. In your batshit clownworld, friends and neighbors providing you equipment and support to even those statistical disadvantages and stop the bigger numbers from killing you is somehow "immoral". You're so dumb it makes me cringe. I literally feel sorry for you. ROFLMAO. I make you cringe, do I... I introduced you to reality, morality and common sense...and you cringe. My Gawd can you be any more stoopid? Look Dimwitty...Tootle yourself on and clean your room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: I would and will vote for a candidate that would put pressure on Ukraine to take a deal. I want both countries to accept a peace agreement. For as much as this "debate" goes on...it is pedantic as Hell. Moonbat I can excuse because...well...you know...he's a bit "touched". But I am rather fascinated in User's position. I'd thought him capable of admitting reality. Just look at this silly fiasco. Clearly Russia has demonstrated that they can hit Kiev at will. They know the Ukrainians can't stop it but do they level whole towns? No. They send troops along a line and keep all the infrastructure, airports, power generation, railroads, inoperable. Ukraine is pinned down in their own country for Gawd's sake. It looks obvious that Russia just doesn't really want to rule all of Ukraine. But these guys simply cannot understand that anyone could have the audacity to not really care who rules that portion Ukraine and thus see this war as futile now...more than ever. The only hope Ukraine has, is for NATO/USA to send in troops and begin launching into Russia. Eh voila...the war that could never be allowed to happen...happens. Over Ukraine... Edited June 11 by Nationalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 1 hour ago, Nationalist said: I introduced you to reality, morality and common sense...and you cringe. Yep, because all of the above are foreign to you, living as you do in conspiracy clownworld. 🤡🤡🤡 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 10 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Yep, because all of the above are foreign to you, living as you do in conspiracy clownworld. 🤡🤡🤡 Fascinating... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 3 hours ago, Nationalist said: I'd thought him capable of admitting reality. Feel free to engage with me directly instead of playing your silly games like this. I give you plenty of opportunities and more patience than you deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 40 minutes ago, User said: Feel free to engage with me directly instead of playing your silly games like this. I give you plenty of opportunities and more patience than you deserve. I've said this to you. We are never gonna agree with this. I simply do not care if Russia or Ukraine "win"...whatever that is at this point. Thus, seeing what's happening, the best choice...or maybe better...the most humane choice...would be to negotiate a peace treaty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 1 hour ago, Nationalist said: I've said this to you. We are never gonna agree with this. I simply do not care if Russia or Ukraine "win"...whatever that is at this point. You certainly do care. Your arguments are all in favor of Russia ending this on their terms in the most beneficial way to them giving them all the leverage... while you also push their propaganda to justify the invasion and ignore their role in instigating all this before the full blown invasion. 1 hour ago, Nationalist said: Thus, seeing what's happening, the best choice...or maybe better...the most humane choice...would be to negotiate a peace treaty. Yeah, you have said this vague crap many times, and every time I point out that there are many ways to get to peace, yours happens to be the one that most favors Russia while leaving Ukraine high and dry. You are not interested in what is humane either, that is all a ruse. The most humane thing would be not defending Russia, pushing their lies, justifying their actions, and ultimately giving in to their aggression, inviting more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 12 Author Report Share Posted June 12 7 hours ago, User said: The most humane thing would be not defending Russia, pushing their lies, justifying their actions, and ultimately giving in to their aggression, inviting more. That's not accurate. The most humane thing to do, would be to end the war. There is nothing more humane than this. This negotiation should have occurred before Russia entered into Ukraine. This should never had occurred. This is where communication should have been the most frantic. Ukraine talked tough because they were backed by the US. Now they don't look so tough, and have absorbed catastrophic losses, begging the US for help, when at times political infighting have put his in question at times. A war of attrition favors Russia. Ukraine relies heavily on stepped up support internationally. The moment this wanes or slows down due to politics, they will suffer immense losses. Russia is all in. The west will start to present cracks in its armor, and Putin is betting heavily on this. In the event they can hold that support for another US presidential term, I just don't see the appetite for far more of this from US voters. Again, favoring Russia. There still is 18 or so percent of their territory that is occupied, and you cannot move Russia without catastrophic losses. Negotiation is the only way. Damaging Russia doesn't stop them. Humane to me, is in stopping them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 9 hours ago, User said: You certainly do care. Your arguments are all in favor of Russia ending this on their terms in the most beneficial way to them giving them all the leverage... while you also push their propaganda to justify the invasion and ignore their role in instigating all this before the full blown invasion. Yeah, you have said this vague crap many times, and every time I point out that there are many ways to get to peace, yours happens to be the one that most favors Russia while leaving Ukraine high and dry. You are not interested in what is humane either, that is all a ruse. The most humane thing would be not defending Russia, pushing their lies, justifying their actions, and ultimately giving in to their aggression, inviting more. I'm sorry you have such a simple outlook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: That's not accurate. The most humane thing to do, would be to end the war. There is nothing more humane than this. Again, Russia invaded Ukraine. They can't just end the war. This is like saying the United States should have just surrendered to Hitler, because the most humane thing to do would be to end the war. Did Japan attack Pearl Harbor? Well, crap, no need for more loss of life, don't go to war with them at all. Do you support NATO/US giving money and materials to help Ukraine? Yes or No? Stop refusing to answer this question. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: This negotiation should have occurred before Russia entered into Ukraine. This should never had occurred. This is where communication should have been the most frantic. Ukraine talked tough because they were backed by the US. Now they don't look so tough, and have absorbed catastrophic losses, begging the US for help, when at times political infighting have put his in question at times. Wait, what? This is complete ignorance or revisionism. The world did put pressure on Russia to not invade. Zelenkski was not acting or talking tough, like they were inviting a Russian invasion. They were pleading for peace the entire time Russia was building up its forces for an invasion. KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — With the Russian threat growing, the Ukrainian president is pleading for peace and says Russian President Vladimir Putin would not accept his call. In an emotional address to the nation late Wednesday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky rejected Moscow’s claims that his country poses a threat to Russia and lamented that a Russian invasion would cost tens of thousands of lives." https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/ukrainian-president-pleads-for-peace-amid-russian-threat 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: A war of attrition favors Russia. Ukraine relies heavily on stepped up support internationally. The moment this wanes or slows down due to politics, they will suffer immense losses. Russia is all in. The west will start to present cracks in its armor, and Putin is betting heavily on this. In the event they can hold that support for another US presidential term, I just don't see the appetite for far more of this from US voters. Again, favoring Russia. So... again, do you favor supporting Ukraine in their war against Russia? Of course this is a concern which is why so many in NATO/US continue to push for this support to continue. 2 hours ago, Perspektiv said: There still is 18 or so percent of their territory that is occupied, and you cannot move Russia without catastrophic losses. Negotiation is the only way. Damaging Russia doesn't stop them. This is not the only possible outcome. You presume a prolonged war with continued costs to Russia is just something they will live with and history proves otherwise. There is no foregone conclusion that Russia will be able or willing to simply go on forever. The war can certainly become too costly for them as well. 2 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Humane to me, is in stopping them. Stop them... how? Your argument is not to stop them, it is give up. And so far... you have yet to clarify for me where you stand on helping Ukraine to stop them. 1 hour ago, Nationalist said: I'm sorry you have such a simple outlook. Well, let me know when you can provide more than such a simple vague response that doesn't actually respond to anything I said directly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 4 minutes ago, User said: Again, Russia invaded Ukraine. They can't just end the war. This is like saying the United States should have just surrendered to Hitler, because the most humane thing to do would be to end the war. Did Japan attack Pearl Harbor? Well, crap, no need for more loss of life, don't go to war with them at all. Do you support NATO/US giving money and materials to help Ukraine? Yes or No? Stop refusing to answer this question. Well thanks for expressing your simple minded outlook. Did Hitler have America over a barrel? No. In fact, by the time America joined the war in Europe, it was already obvious that Germany was gonna lose. As for Japan, did they have a distinct advantage? Were they destroying America? No? Hmmm... For me the answer is a resounding "NO". It is a complete waste of life and funds at this point. 36 minutes ago, User said: do you favor supporting Ukraine in their war against Russia? Of course this is a concern which is why so many in NATO/US continue to push for this support to continue. Why is this so important to you? Ukraine is losing. Shouldn't peace be sought before a disaster of global proportions happens? 39 minutes ago, User said: Stop them... how? Your argument is not to stop them, it is give up. And so far... you have yet to clarify for me where you stand on helping Ukraine to stop them. A peace agreement. 40 minutes ago, User said: Well, let me know when you can provide more than such a simple vague response that doesn't actually respond to anything I said directly. I've told you several times but you seem incapable of understanding. You have a very binary outlook on things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 19 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Well thanks for expressing your simple minded outlook. Did Hitler have America over a barrel? No. In fact, by the time America joined the war in Europe, it was already obvious that Germany was gonna lose. As for Japan, did they have a distinct advantage? Were they destroying America? No? Hmmm... For me the answer is a resounding "NO". It is a complete waste of life and funds at this point. Exactly. According to your logic, America should have never entered the war. We should have demanded that Europe surrender to stop the loss of life. Same for Japan, might as well have ignored Pearl Harbor, right? Why respond and waste more lives. The only simple-minded outlook here is yours, as you actually agree with this nonsense. 21 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Why is this so important to you? Ukraine is losing. Shouldn't peace be sought before a disaster of global proportions happens? It is important for me to understand what a person actually supports, because like you, my guess is that they are being duplicitous. You want Ukraine to lose and support their losing, then you turn around and argue they are losing. It is a dishonest argument you are making, so you can support Russia. You are just fine with Russia continuing to invade countries at will, you welcome and encourage it. 23 minutes ago, Nationalist said: A peace agreement. Speaking of simple notions... a peace agreement how? 23 minutes ago, Nationalist said: I've told you several times but you seem incapable of understanding. You have a very binary outlook on things. No, you have not. I understand your lousy arguments just fine. Disagreement != a lack of understanding. My outlook is no more binary than yours. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 13 hours ago, Nationalist said: I simply do not care if Russia or Ukraine "win"...whatever that is at this point. If that were true, you wouldn't have spent two years and tons of energy echoing all of Putin's talking points, and undermining all of Ukraine's and NATOs. The fact that you're too much of a little b*tch to admit it is irrelevant, especially since you've literally told us you hope Russia destroys Ukraine: 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 12 Author Report Share Posted June 12 3 hours ago, User said: Do you support NATO/US giving money and materials to help Ukraine? I did initially, but that support will wane as people aren't going to be okay with doing this into perpetuity. Its not a yes or no question. I would be open to looking at available options to bring this conflict to an end, and doing so doesn't mean you want Ukraine to be gobbled up. A line of communication with Russia, is the only way this conflict ends. 3 hours ago, User said: Stop them... how? There's only one way out. Sooner or later, it will come to a negotiation table. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 24 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: I did initially, but that support will wane as people aren't going to be okay with doing this into perpetuity. Its not a yes or no question. It is a yes or no question. Do you no longer support any aid now, or do you think that you might not in the future? I am not asking if you will always support aid and support to Ukraine. However, now I am asking what exactly would make your support wane or why you no longer do. 35 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: I would be open to looking at available options to bring this conflict to an end, and doing so doesn't mean you want Ukraine to be gobbled up. A line of communication with Russia, is the only way this conflict ends. Well... yeah, it does. Maybe not completely gobbled up, but Russia has certainly taken some significant chunks and is still trying to take more. No, that is not the only way this conflict ends. First, Putin can't be trusted, he is a liar. You might as well be demanding we talk to Hitler to bring an end to WWII and just let him keep France. Russia can be pushed to the point where this conflict is to painful for them. There are more options. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: There's only one way out. Sooner or later, it will come to a negotiation table. This is not an answer, it is a hope, that they will negotiate or that we would even be negotiating with someone on good terms. As I said, there are more ways out than this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 23 hours ago, Perspektiv said: I would and will vote for a candidate that would put pressure on Ukraine to take a deal surrender, and give Russia what it wants, while committing more atrocities. I want both countries to accept a peace agreement Russian annexation of ethnic Ukrainian land. FYP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: I did initially, but that support will wane as people aren't going to be okay with doing this into perpetuity. Its not a yes or no question. Funny. I seem to recall the United States perpetually funding enemies of the Soviet Union for over 40 years, until the collapse of Communism in 1991. The end result was America stood alone as the World's superpower, and allowed us to maintain our high quality of life. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: I would be open to looking at available options to bring this conflict to an end, and doing so doesn't mean you want Ukraine to be gobbled up. Negotiating with autocratic leaders has never worked. What you want essentially is another Munich agreement (circa 1938), where Nazi Germany was given the Sudetenland for peace in Europe. We all know how that turned out. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: A line of communication with Russia, is the only way this conflict ends. Putin (and historically, Russia) has never negotiated in goof faith. One cannot negotiate with bullies. They have to be dealt with by force. It's the only thing that will make them back down. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: There's only one way out. Sooner or later, it will come to a negotiation table. :Negotiation table. AKA Ukraine surrendering. Edited June 12 by DUI_Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 (edited) 5 hours ago, User said: Exactly. According to your logic, America should have never entered the war. We should have demanded that Europe surrender to stop the loss of life. Same for Japan, might as well have ignored Pearl Harbor, right? Why respond and waste more lives. The only simple-minded outlook here is yours, as you actually agree with this nonsense. Did The US win the war? That's rather debatable. However they did speed the process up considerably. But the 2 front war was slowly starving Germany at the time. I would have said that Germany should have sought a peace deal in 1944. But Hitler had a hard-on for Russia. It was his fatal mistake. Then the Americans got the bomb in '45 and it was over. As for Japan, there is serious cause to suspect the Americans never had to demonstrate their new bomb. But that's another debate. Japan was already speaking to Russia about a peace deal. Why do you ignore history? The USA had a serious military when Japan struck and had a very well oiled industrial base to build arms with. They were not in the same position Ukraine is. Ukraine is in the same position Japan was in '45. Interestingly enough, the victor in the US/Japan war did not want anything more than a regime change and security issues addressed. They did not take Japan over. I don't think Russia has any designs on taking over all of Ukraine either. 5 hours ago, User said: It is important for me to understand what a person actually supports, because like you, my guess is that they are being duplicitous. You want Ukraine to lose and support their losing, then you turn around and argue they are losing. It is a dishonest argument you are making, so you can support Russia. You are just fine with Russia continuing to invade countries at will, you welcome and encourage it. In this case, I "support" common sense. Like Japan in '45, they should recognize they can't win a war of attrition with Russia. I hope that's the outcome of this peace summit that Zelinsky is holding. 5 hours ago, User said: Speaking of simple notions... a peace agreement how? By actually talking to the adversary. Even if its not Putin. But Zelinsky is holding his peace summit without any Russian participation. That signals to me that he's begging for long range missiles and NATO military personnel to aim and fire them into Russia. 5 hours ago, User said: No, you have not. I understand your lousy arguments just fine. Disagreement != a lack of understanding. My outlook is no more binary than yours. Tell me...why do you care about this war? I mean really...why do you care? How does it affect you? How does it affect the USA? Why is it so important to fight with Russia over Ukraine? 5 hours ago, Moonbox said: If that were true, you wouldn't have spent two years and tons of energy echoing all of Putin's talking points, and undermining all of Ukraine's and NATOs. The fact that you're too much of a little b*tch to admit it is irrelevant, especially since you've literally told us you hope Russia destroys Ukraine: So that you get to see the consequences...which you see already and don't give a rat's ass. Bye LOSER. Edited June 12 by Nationalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 1 hour ago, User said: No, that is not the only way this conflict ends. First, Putin can't be trusted, he is a liar. You might as well be demanding we talk to Hitler to bring an end to WWII and just let him keep France. Errr...the French rolled over...They had France for quite a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 42 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: Putin (and historically, Russia) has never negotiated in goof faith. One cannot negotiate with bullies. They have to be dealt with by force. It's the only thing that will make them back down. OK first of all...that's just silly. When has the USA ever negotiated in "goof faith"? Question: What is they don't back down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 12 Author Report Share Posted June 12 59 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: Funny. Funny how history repeats itself. 1 hour ago, DUI_Offender said: Negotiating with autocratic leaders has never worked. They respect consequences. Longer this war goes, the more it favors Russia. 1 hour ago, DUI_Offender said: Putin (and historically, Russia) has never negotiated in goof faith. Obviously. You put protections in place. 1 hour ago, DUI_Offender said: AKA Ukraine surrendering. Or accepting the only way out is via negotiation, so stopping the bleeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 13 Report Share Posted June 13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 13 Report Share Posted June 13 3 hours ago, Perspektiv said: They respect consequences. Longer this war goes, the more it favors Russia. So... your idea of consequences is to let them get away with their aggression. No, the longer this war goes, it doesn't automatically favor Russia. They are losing more men and more hardware than Ukraine. It can continue to be too costly for them in the long run. 3 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Obviously. You put protections in place. What protections? You are already here saying your support for Ukraine is wavering now and won't clarify if you still support them. So... what protections will be in place? 3 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Or accepting the only way out is via negotiation, so stopping the bleeding. This is not the only way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 13 Report Share Posted June 13 (edited) 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: Did The US win the war? That's rather debatable. However they did speed the process up considerably. But the 2 front war was slowly starving Germany at the time. The US entering the war changed the outcome, and allowed the Americans to defeat the Japanese Empire in the Pacific, and make it possible for the Allies to invade Nazi occupied land by invading Italy in 1943, and then D-Day in 1944. 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: ]I would have said that Germany should have sought a peace deal in 1944. But Hitler had a hard-on for Russia. It was his fatal mistake. Then the Americans got the bomb in '45 and it was over.[/quote] OK, there are several things incorrect about this statement: 1. In 1943. Stalin, Roosevelt, and Churchill first got together in a conference to decide how to end the war, and what to do with Germany once the Nazis were defeated. After the battle of Stalingrad ended in February 1943, it was obvious that the Germans were going to lose the war. 2. Germany invaded Russia in June 1941. By 1944, Hitler was a complete drug addict, knowing that it was only a matter of time before the Russians and Allies defeated the Nazis. Peace was not possible after 1942, as Russia and the US would have flatly rejected anything other than unconditional surrender. 3. The War in Europe had been over for months when the Americans deployed nuclear weapons. The US decided on using nukes against the Japanese, since they had recaptured all the land outside Japan, and knew the Japanese would fight tooth and nail on their island, which would have resulted in massive American deaths. The Americans correctly thought that if they used nuclear weapons on two Japanese cities, it would avert any battle on mainland Japan. 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: As for Japan, there is serious cause to suspect the Americans never had to demonstrate their new bomb. But that's another debate. Japan was already speaking to Russia about a peace deal. Japan was NOT speaking to Russia about a peace deal in 1945. Where do you come up with this nonsense? 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: Why do you ignore history? He is referring to real history, not imaginary history. 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: The USA had a serious military when Japan struck and had a very well oiled industrial base to build arms with. The United States now has a military 1,000 times stronger than the one that fought in WWII. They are also easily the undisputed most powerful nation on earth. 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: They were not in the same position Ukraine is. Ukraine is in the same position Japan was in '45. Not even close. Japan attacked a more powerful enemy, and paid the price. Japan was the aggressor. Ukraine has been victim of Russian aggression for over 500 years, and this is just the latest incident of the Russians invading their country. 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: Interestingly enough, the victor in the US/Japan war did not want anything more than a regime change and security issues addressed. They did not take Japan over. I don't think Russia has any designs on taking over all of Ukraine either. First off, the United States, did indeed rule over Japan for years. It may not have been a technical occupation, but there remains to this day US military bases in Japan and Germany. America helped rebuild Japan and Germany, into democratic nations that had similar values and principles. 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: In this case, I "support" common sense. Like Japan in '45, they should recognize they can't win a war of attrition with Russia. I hope that's the outcome of this peace summit that Zelinsky is holding. Ukraine can indeed still win the war with Russia if NATO gave the Ukrainians unlimited military weapons, and gave the green light to hit St.Petersburg and Moscow, where all the wealthy Russians live. 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: By actually talking to the adversary. Even if its not Putin. But Zelinsky is holding his peace summit without any Russian participation. That signals to me that he's begging for long range missiles and NATO military personnel to aim and fire them into Russia. Well what would you do in his situation? He is the leader of the country, and realises that a Russian victory would not only mean persecution for all Ukrainians in annexed territory, but his own possible demise. It's not like if a peace deal is signed, the Russians would give Ukrainians in Russian annexed territory full civil rights. It's obvious from the atrocities committed by Russia, that they would likely seek a terrible revenge on all Ukrainians. 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: Tell me...why do you care about this war? I mean really...why do you care? People care, because it is the right thing to do. I cannot remember in my lifetime, a military conflict being so black and white, with Russia being the aggressors, and Ukraine being victimised by Russian expansion. This happened in Georgia not too long ago. When you see the school bully physically assaulting students, and making threats against them, do you root him on too? Edited June 13 by DUI_Offender 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 13 Report Share Posted June 13 3 hours ago, Nationalist said: OK first of all...that's just silly. When has the USA ever negotiated in "goof faith"? Question: What is they don't back down? Wow. Now you are acting as if America is on the same moral playing field as Russia. You will do or say anything to defend Russia. It is just bonkers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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