Women and Queerand Minorities ONLY - straight white men need not apply at University of Waterloo.

[Dougie93]

18 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

As a Catholic, can I make claims against the Anglicans who stole our churches 450 years ago?

again tho, it is your own Romanist Canada which is putting its boot upon your throat

it's the French & Indians

who believe in collectivist rights against the individual

as opposed to we Scots-Irish Protestants

who go to war for the sacred individual against a tyrannical collective

no surrender

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

“Diversity sucks!  Bring back racism”

 

Is that really a winning slogan?

You'll have to ask the left - that's what they're running on it would seem

[Dougie93]

18 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I do know this: If I’m a talented researcher today and a university is searching for an expert in my field, and I’m such an expert, but I’m passed over solely because of my race, that’s clear injustice against me. That’s harmful and must not be allowed.

but that is an entirely Protestant paradigm

again, not trying convert you

because I don't have to

since you are nailing your protest to the door like Martin Luther already

coming to Jesus in your own time, in your own way

a stranger come in the night, a tramp on the side of the road

beckons you to Calvary

[Zeitgeist]

You’ve definitely made me question.

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’ve definitely made me question.

it's not me

I am a Marcianite, brother

in that Marcion believed that only God Himself could convert you

Saul becomes Paul when he sees the light over Damascus

the Nazarene is with you

He is that which compels you

I am merely a pilgrim on the road, singing of the Good News, lustily & with good cheer

[CdnFox]

14 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’ve definitely made me question.

Do you think it cheapens the value of the university education when it's known it's not based on merit? If a highly qualified male and a barely qualified female  are in line for this - they're going with 'barely'.

[Zeitgeist]

35 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Do you think it cheapens the value of the university education when it's known it's not based on merit? If a highly qualified male and a barely qualified female  are in line for this - they're going with 'barely'.

It’s a real problem.  My son is an A student in grade 12 and I’m scared he won’t get into any of the three universities to which he has applied. Already some of his friends with similar marks and non-English names have received acceptances. Add the fact that international students have driven up the required averages and very few Ontario students are applying to Quebec universities due to the massive tuition hikes, and you have a shortage of spots in Ontario.  I’ve seen students with 90 plus averages rejected from Engineering programs.  Half of our higher education spots go to international students.  The system isn’t serving Canadians, and when it does, certain groups get preferential treatment.  I feel sorry for my son because he’s working really hard and doing everything that’s asked of him.

[Michael Hardner]

On 2/7/2024 at 6:04 PM, TreeBeard said:

Some could say that it’s the moral thing to do to correct the “mistakes” by balancing the representation in the public service. 
 

I’m not making that argument, but I think they would have as much moral high ground to make that argument as you do for your argument to do nothing.  

What argument ARE you making ?  I am ok with diversity programs but at a certain point, if we're not breaking through the futility leads to some odd ideas.  I would put restrictions on hiring to be one of these, because over time it would lead to a two-tiered workplace and acceptance of mediocrity.  

Now, what happened in progress through the 80s 90s 2000s 2010s with DEI was promotion of awareness and progress.  Was it slow ?  Was it fast ?

[TreeBeard]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

because over time it would lead to a two-tiered workplace and acceptance of mediocrity.  

How does it do that?  There are criteria to meet to get a particular job…. education, experience, etc.  These don’t disappear. Any candidate considered has to meet the criteria.  

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

How does it do that?  There are criteria to meet to get a particular job…. education, experience, etc.  These don’t disappear. Any candidate considered has to meet the criteria.  

Because you are in a meeting with people who are perceived to be there due to their identity vs how they did in an interview.

There is realistically the idea of backlash.  

And if there aren't proportional numbers of groups... don't we want to fix that problem at source ?  

And - is there always a problem there ?  

[impartialobserver]

On 2/7/2024 at 2:45 PM, TreeBeard said:

Your claim is that there was never any employment discrimination in Canada until recently when it has been discrimination against white males?

Not that retribution is good or necessary but the deck was stacked against non-whites for a far longer than the current paradigm where whites are simply not the default choice any longer. 

[Zeitgeist]

16 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Not that retribution is good or necessary but the deck was stacked against non-whites for a far longer than the current paradigm where whites are simply not the default choice any longer. 

Exaggeration.  Canada has had quite good employment equality for many decades.  There were very few visible minorities in Canada before the 70’s.  Did racism have a negative impact, especially decades ago?  Yes, but if you move to any country you’ll run into prejudice, especially if people look, act or speak quite differently there.  Canada hasn’t had legal discrimination on its books for decades, so you’re really talking about social attitudes, since that’s what would have had an impact in recent decades.  Do you think that having discriminatory hiring practices today is a good way to increase social cohesion and eliminate prejudice?  As people have gotten used to each other from different groups, they have learned that good and bad comes in all colours.  You don’t get to say that some discrimination is okay if your purpose is to eliminate discrimination, or you will see major pushback from the groups who are systematically discriminated against.

We’re seeing a return to segregation in the form of black proms, residences, and so on, all in the name of “celebrating culture” and “black joy”, but what happens when the response to that is white-only clubs, etc.?  How long will people be able to use the injustices of the past to justify injustice in the present?

Edited February 9 by Zeitgeist

[impartialobserver]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

How long will people be able to use the injustices of the past to justify injustice in the present?

Good question. I do not know the answer. Folks tried to lie in the past and say that they were hiring based on merit when it was quite clear  that they were not.

 

Whites are not exactly being discriminated against in the same overt fashion as blacks in the US were prior to the civil rights act. They are simply not the default choice and so are not selected quite as often. I recently hired a guy from Honduras. We had 12 applicants, 7 of them were white. But none of them had nearly the credentials of the Honduran. Phd in mathematics, BS in Mining Engineering, published author, and during the interview was able to verbally tell us the computer code needed for a task... But according to you, i should have pushed him to the back of the list because he was not white. Oh... and I hired him because of some diversity quota. 

[Zeitgeist]

14 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Good question. I do not know the answer. Folks tried to lie in the past and say that they were hiring based on merit when it was quite clear  that they were not.

 

Whites are not exactly being discriminated against in the same overt fashion as blacks in the US were prior to the civil rights act. They are simply not the default choice and so are not selected quite as often. I recently hired a guy from Honduras. We had 12 applicants, 7 of them were white. But none of them had nearly the credentials of the Honduran. Phd in mathematics, BS in Mining Engineering, published author, and during the interview was able to verbally tell us the computer code needed for a task... But according to you, i should have pushed him to the back of the list because he was not white. Oh... and I hired him because of some diversity quota. 

Why are you putting words in my mouth?  You should hire the best qualified people regardless of race. Based on the assumption you just made, I wouldn’t trust you to hire fairly.

Edited February 9 by Zeitgeist

[impartialobserver]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Why are you putting words in my mouth?  You should hire the best qualified people regardless of race. Based on the assumption you just made, I wouldn’t trust you to hire fairly.

Well, the candidate that I chose had double the credentials of anyone else so I went with him. Besides, he was able to produce the correct computer code in seconds.. not googling it or using ChatGPT. That wins in my book.. apparently not yours. 

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Well, the candidate that I chose had double the credentials of anyone else so I went with him. Besides, he was able to produce the correct computer code in seconds.. not googling it or using ChatGPT. That wins in my book.. apparently not yours. 

You made the right hiring choice if he was the most qualified.  What concerns me is your assumption about me.  All of my posts have said that discrimination in hiring is unacceptable.  Somehow you translated that to being discriminatory. Why do you make such assumptions?  If you consider yourself impartial, you shouldn’t assume things about people.

Edited February 9 by Zeitgeist

[impartialobserver]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

You made the right hiring choice if he was the most qualified.  What concerns me is your assumption about me.  All of my posts have said that discrimination in hiring is unacceptable.  Somehow you translated that to being discriminatory. Why do you make such assumptions?

14 years of online forums leave one a bit jaded and untrusting. Folks who say the right thing at first.. turn out to be closet racists when they relax. My guess is that if I had hired one of the lesser candidates.. you would be praising me for being some soldier of righteousness. A lot of your types (Taxme and I am Groot being the best examples) view this as a sad day for whites... Why does it have to be a zero sum game? 

 

That being said.. one of the white candidates came to the interview (on Zoom) in pajamas with his incredibly messy house in the background. 

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

14 years of online forums leave one a bit jaded and untrusting. Folks who say the right thing at first.. turn out to be closet racists when they relax. My guess is that if I had hired one of the lesser candidates.. you would be praising me for being some soldier of righteousness. A lot of your types (Taxme and I am Groot being the best examples) view this as a sad day for whites... Why does it have to be a zero sum game? 

 

That being said.. one of the white candidates came to the interview (on Zoom) in pajamas with his incredibly messy house in the background. 

Types?  I haven’t said a racist word on this forum.  Is this because I’m white?

[impartialobserver]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Types?  I haven’t said a racist word on this forum.  Is this because I’m white?

Types.. Conservatives who go out of their way to bring race into a topic and then claim to be purely altruistic and basing their ideas on merit alone. I have not encountered one yet that does not show their true colors. You might be the first. 

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Types.. Conservatives who go out of their way to bring race into a topic and then claim to be purely altruistic and basing their ideas on merit alone. I have not encountered one yet that does not show their true colors. You might be the first. 

The concern I have is with this notion of “types” and the assumption about Conservatives being racist.  Is Conservative MP Leslyn Lewis racist?

[impartialobserver]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

The concern I have is with this notion of “types” and the assumption about Conservatives being racist.  Is Conservative MP Leslyn Lewis racist?

Never heard of him/her. I live in the US specifically Nevada.  I have met maybe one or two conservatives that are not closet racists. One example is where they do not care about sports and will say that. Yet, Nikola Jokic (white NBA player) wins the MVP award.. now they think it is cool that a white player wins an award given mostly to black players in the past.. if race did not matter, why are they suddenly interested? 

[Zeitgeist]

15 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Never heard of him/her. I live in the US specifically Nevada.  I have met maybe one or two conservatives that are not closet racists. One example is where they do not care about sports and will say that. Yet, Nikola Jokic (white NBA player) wins the MVP award.. now they think it is cool that a white player wins an award given mostly to black players in the past.. if race did not matter, why are they suddenly interested? 

There’s a difference between being excited about someone from your own background being successful and putting up barriers against others on the basis of race or ethnicity.  I assume that former Yugoslavians or Serbians or even Russians might be excited to see a Serbian-American succeed in a sport where there are few Serbian players.

An excellent basketball player is an excellent basketball player and should only be considered for playing time, awards, etc on the basis of skill.  It would be discriminatory to grant a basketball award on the basis of race or anything else that has nothing to do with how well one plays basketball.

[impartialobserver]

12 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

There’s a difference between being excited about someone from your own background being successful and putting up barriers against others on the basis of race or ethnicity.  I assume that former Yugoslavians or Serbians or even Russians might be excited to see a Serbian-American succeed in a sport where there are few Serbian players.

An excellent basketball player is an excellent basketball player and should only be considered for playing time, awards, etc on the basis of skill.  It would be discriminatory to grant a basketball award on the basis of race or anything else that has nothing to do with how well one plays basketball.

You and I both know that they only care because Jokic is white and they care nothing about him being Serbian. I have even seen where they really show their true colors... it bothers them that he does not celebrate his whiteness. When asked about this, he brushes it off like a mosquito. 

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

You and I both know that they only care because Jokic is white and they care nothing about him being Serbian. I have even seen where they really show their true colors... it bothers them that he does not celebrate his whiteness. When asked about this, he brushes it off like a mosquito. 

I don’t think most people care that he’s white except in the way it’s cool to see white players in the NBA the same way it’s cool to see black NHL players.  It means that with skill and interest anyone can move in a circle traditionally dominated by one or more groups.  The reasons some people gravitate to or thrive in some environments more than others aren’t necessarily about discriminatory behaviour either.  If I grow up in Kenya there’s a greater chance I’ll be a professional runner than hockey player for obvious reasons that have nothing to do with skin colour.  

Edited February 9 by Zeitgeist

[impartialobserver]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t think most people care that he’s white except in the way it’s cool to see white players in the NBA the same way it’s cool to see black NHL players.  It means that with skill and interest anyone can move in a circle traditionally dominated by one or more groups.  The reasons some people gravitate to or thrive in some environments more than others aren’t necessarily about discriminatory behaviour either.  If I grow up in Kenya there’s a greater chance I’ll be a professional runner than hockey player for obvious reasons that have nothing to do with skin colour.  

and if they were true fans of the sport.. they would follow the league or really just care about it any way prior to Jokic winning the MVP. I have been an NBA fan since 1986 and it matters not the race of the key players.