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Breaking: Trump has no immunity from Jan. 6 prosecution, appeals court rules


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22 hours ago, robosmith said:

1980s LMAO

Biden quit that campaign over plagiarizing. Trump triples and quadruples down on HIS 30,000+ LIES. 

It doesn't matter whether Biden quit his campaign or not.  The fact is that he plagiarized in the first place.  That is a form of cheating and someone who cheated like that has no business being POTUS.  He has shown with his action that he has no integrity.

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3 minutes ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

It doesn't matter whether Biden quit his campaign or not.  The fact is that he plagiarized in the first place.  That is a form of cheating and someone who cheated like that has no business being POTUS.  He has shown with his action that he has no integrity.

Trump has cheated too. On all of his wives, for one thing. 

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3 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Trump has cheated too. On all of his wives, for one thing. 

You mentioning Trump has no meaning, because I am not a Trump-supporter.  

 

Do you support Biden?  I am assuming you do based on the things you say.  So the second question is, why do you support someone who has shown with his action that he has no integrity?

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1 hour ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

You mentioning Trump has no meaning, because I am not a Trump-supporter.  

 

Do you support Biden?  I am assuming you do based on the things you say.  So the second question is, why do you support someone who has shown with his action that he has no integrity?

Because, first, the choice is binary, and between the two, a guy who cheated on a term paper sixty years ago is nothing compared to a man who says and who has demonstrated that he will become a dictator.  
 

Second, I don’t even know the extent of his plagiarism.  It can mean a lot of things, from a very minor accident to a very deliberate action.  Don’t know what happened. But Biden has demonstrated great integrity and skill since then.  
 

All people are flawed. You’ve stolen or cheated at some point in your life. But some people are downright wicked, and others are not.  Donald Trump is in the outright wicked category.  

But also, I do not think that Republican policies are good for America at all. Since 1980, their policy has been to slash taxes for the rich so much that the poor pay higher marginal rates than the rich, then massively increase spending while slashing spending on the social programs most necessary for the destitute. And, of course, do everything possible to cater to the whims of tobacco and oil, or, in today’s world, oil. I don’t think that the Republicans today are more pro-business than Democrats; Trump’s tariffs of China were a good example of a policy that harmed a lot of American businesses who had become interdependent upon China over the past decades. I think Trump’s foreign policy is absolutely horrific; he prefers alliances with dictators to those with democracies and he would surely hand Ukraine over the Russia in a heartbeat. 

Edited by Rebound
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5 hours ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

I don't understand why Trump invoked presidential immunity.  He didn't need to do that.  I believe he only needed to prove that he didn't incite the crowd or tell them to storm the capitol.  Those protestors did what they did because they wanted to, not because they had been incited by Trump.  Courts and judges should go after these protestors if they believe they committed crimes.  They shouldn't go after Trump.  Trump shouldn't be punished for the things other people did, doesn't matter that those people did it because of him.

In REALITY, it does matter. Conspiracy and incitement are REAL CRIMES.

FACT is, you don't know the half of what Trump and his conspirators told that crowd to do.

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6 minutes ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

Ok, so if you are so sure that Trump incited them, then post proof.  Post actual quotes from Trump that indicate incitement.

Read the indictments. They are quite detailed.

Also, watch Frontline, Democracy on Trial. If you're not too lazy, read the Jan 6th Select Committee final report.

The House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol released their final report on December 22, 2022.
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1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Read the indictments. They are quite detailed.

Also, watch Frontline, Democracy on Trial. If you're not too lazy, read the Jan 6th Select Committee final report.

The House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol released their final report on December 22, 2022.

"If I am not too lazy"?  Why do you talk to me like that?

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On 2/6/2024 at 8:13 AM, Deluge said:

Another witch trial waiting to be squashed. ;)

So far the Criminal Con Man Grifter in Chief has only proven one thing...HIS followers are as stupid as he paints them;  they continue to pour in money thinking its for his campaign, when in fact his campaign is only fund raising for his continued criminal activity and a road show for the Media. Certainly the Courts are not impressed. 

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On 2/6/2024 at 9:37 AM, Deluge said:

Suspicion still exists. 

No, you'll go where your globalist overlords tell you to go. 

You can’t find mass fraud in even one single frickin’ precinct out of 10,000’s across the country.  

3 hours ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

Ok, so if you are so sure that Trump incited them, then post proof.  Post actual quotes from Trump that indicate incitement.

The proof is in the trial.  In a court of law.  So far, the indictments prove that probable cause has been established.  The trials are for the rest of the facts, and a jury will do the rest.  

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2 minutes ago, Rebound said:

 

The proof is in the trial.  In a court of law.  So far, the indictments prove that probable cause has been established.  The trials are for the rest of the facts, and a jury will do the rest.  

The trial that hasn't happened yet? That's where your proof is?

The indictments don't prove anything. that's not how indictments work. They do NOT establish probable cause AT ALL - not even a LITTLE BIT.

An indictment in the states means that a grand jury has determined that the evidence has enough credibility that there is a possibility of a crime and the possibility is high enough to justify going forward to trial to see if there's any truth to it at all. It is NO finding or even indication of guilt in the slightest. indicted cases frequently are later dismissed, or the people go to trial and are found innocent. etc.  That s why we HAVE trials.

That's it. No 'probable cause' - which i don't know where you got it's completely not a thing here.  Probable cause is what you use to get a search warrant not an indictment.

 

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3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

The trial that hasn't happened yet? That's where your proof is?

The indictments don't prove anything. that's not how indictments work. They do NOT establish probable cause AT ALL - not even a LITTLE BIT.

An indictment in the states means that a grand jury has determined that the evidence has enough credibility that there is a possibility of a crime and the possibility is high enough to justify going forward to trial to see if there's any truth to it at all. It is NO finding or even indication of guilt in the slightest. indicted cases frequently are later dismissed, or the people go to trial and are found innocent. etc.  That s why we HAVE trials.

That's it. No 'probable cause' - which i don't know where you got it's completely not a thing here.  Probable cause is what you use to get a search warrant not an indictment.

 

Learn US law:

the grand jury's principal function is to determine whether or not there is probable cause to believe that one or more persons committed a certain Federal offense within the venue of the district court”

https://www.justice.gov/jm/jm-9-11000-grand-jury#:~:text=While grand juries are sometimes,venue of the district court.

 

Probable Cause of Donald Trump criminal felony has been formally established by grand juries 91 times. 

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1 minute ago, Rebound said:

Learn US law:

the grand jury's principal function is to determine whether or not there is probable cause to believe that one or more persons committed a certain Federal offense within the venue of the district court”

https://www.justice.gov/jm/jm-9-11000-grand-jury#:~:text=While grand juries are sometimes,venue of the district court.

That isn't law. It's a quick explanation for mor0ns who don't know the law.

Glad you found it.

Again - the grand jury does not determine guilt, only whether or not the evidence is credible enough to proceed to a trial

 

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10 hours ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

I don't understand why Trump invoked presidential immunity.  He didn't need to do that.  I believe he only needed to prove that he didn't incite the crowd or tell them to storm the capitol.  Those protestors did what they did because they wanted to, not because they had been incited by Trump.  Courts and judges should go after these protestors if they believe they committed crimes.  They shouldn't go after Trump.  Trump shouldn't be punished for the things other people did, doesn't matter that those people did it because of him.

He tried to claim immunity because his lawyers looked at the hundreds of times he lied to his followers about a "stolen election." They watched video of how he turned a crowd into a mob be telling them that they had to march to the Capitol right now and "stop the steal" or they wouldn't have a country anymore.

And after all that it was clear that no rational person or jury would believe that he didn't create a phony existential crisis that incited a riot. So better to make the case that he should be immune to the consequences of what he quite obviously did. 

But don't worry. After they lose the immunity case they'll go right back to pretending he didn't do anything wrong.

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1 hour ago, Hodad said:

He tried to claim immunity because his lawyers looked at the hundreds of times he lied to his followers about a "stolen election." They watched video of how he turned a crowd into a mob be telling them that they had to march to the Capitol right now and "stop the steal" or they wouldn't have a country anymore.

And after all that it was clear that no rational person or jury would believe that he didn't create a phony existential crisis that incited a riot. So better to make the case that he should be immune to the consequences of what he quite obviously did. 

But don't worry. After they lose the immunity case they'll go right back to pretending he didn't do anything wrong.

Well, I know that incitement is a crime, but I really think that people have to take responsibility for their own actions.  They can't just say, "Trump made us storm the capitol".  In a similar vein, the courts should punish the actual actors who committed a crime, they shouldn't blame it on someone else for inciting them, because, like I said, people are adults, they should take responsibility for their own actions.

 

If I told my boyfriend that someone at work had been bothering me, and that he should do something about it or I would lose my job, and he then went and murdered that coworker, this is entirely his fault.  I did not incite him to murder that person.  I did not abet him to do anything.  He needed to take responsibility for what he did.  I did not commit any crime at all.

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22 minutes ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

Well, I know that incitement is a crime, but I really think that people have to take responsibility for their own actions.  They can't just say, "Trump made us storm the capitol".  In a similar vein, the courts should punish the actual actors who committed a crime, they shouldn't blame it on someone else for inciting them, because, like I said, people are adults, they should take responsibility for their own actions.

 

If I told my boyfriend that someone at work had been bothering me, and that he should do something about it or I would lose my job, and he then went and murdered that coworker, this is entirely his fault.  I did not incite him to murder that person.  I did not abet him to do anything.  He needed to take responsibility for what he did.  I did not commit any crime at all.

Nearly a thousand of goons that Trump incited HAVE been held accountable for their crimes, some sentenced to 20 years in prison.

You really shouldn't be offering your uninformed opinions when you don't really know what has already happened.

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13 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Nearly a thousand of goons that Trump incited HAVE been held accountable for their crimes, some sentenced to 20 years in prison.

You really shouldn't be offering your uninformed opinions when you don't really know what has already happened.

No sir, you need to learn to read.

 

I didn't say people weren't sent to jail.  I also didn't say people weren't being held accountable.  Rather, I said, Trump should not be held responsible for other people's actions.  I know that reading is hard, but with enough practice, you might get to the level of a 3rd grader.

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1 hour ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

Well, I know that incitement is a crime, but I really think that people have to take responsibility for their own actions.  They can't just say, "Trump made us storm the capitol".  In a similar vein, the courts should punish the actual actors who committed a crime, they shouldn't blame it on someone else for inciting them, because, like I said, people are adults, they should take responsibility for their own actions.

 

If I told my boyfriend that someone at work had been bothering me, and that he should do something about it or I would lose my job, and he then went and murdered that coworker, this is entirely his fault.  I did not incite him to murder that person.  I did not abet him to do anything.  He needed to take responsibility for what he did.  I did not commit any crime at all.

Donald Trump has not been charged with incitement, although you agree that it’s a crime. 
 

Regarding Jan 6, Trump is facing four Federal charges: 

1 count

Conspiracy to defraud the United States

The charge against Mr. Trump details the various methods he and co-conspirators used to try to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

2 counts


Related to efforts to obstruct the vote certification proceedings

Mr. Trump faces two charges involving the vote certification proceedings at the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021: one of obstructing that process and one of conspiring to do so.

1 count
Conspiracy to violate civil rights

Related to Mr. Trump’s attempts to reverse election results in states with close elections in 2020.

 

Full annotated text of the indictment:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/08/01/us/politics/trump-jan-6-indictment-2020-election-annotated.html
 

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56 minutes ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

No sir, you need to learn to read.

 

I didn't say people weren't sent to jail.  I also didn't say people weren't being held accountable.  Rather, I said, Trump should not be held responsible for other people's actions.  I know that reading is hard, but with enough practice, you might get to the level of a 3rd grader.

You said:

Quote

They can't just say, "Trump made us storm the capitol". 

But they did say that. And that defense didn't work to relieve their responsibility, nor does it relieve Trumps.

Quote

In a similar vein, the courts should punish the actual actors who committed a crime,

Why are you saying what the courts SHOULD do when they already did that?

That is a STRONG implication you didn't know what happened.

Otherwise you would say "the courts punished the actual actors."

Quote

they shouldn't blame it on someone else for inciting them, because, like I said, people are adults, they should take responsibility for their own actions.

The FACT is, BOTH ARE responsible. Do you know anything about mob mentality?

When an incitor motivates many, they act as a group, often committing crimes they would NOT otherwise commit. 

When acting in unison, a mob often feels immune from consequences. The incitor is RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT.

 

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5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

That isn't law. It's a quick explanation for mor0ns who don't know the law.

Glad you found it.

Again - the grand jury does not determine guilt, only whether or not the evidence is credible enough to proceed to a trial

 

You are so pathetic. 
You said that indictments do not establish probable cause.  You were wrong. I proved you were wrong, by citing the U.S. Department of Justice as my source.  
 

But you are so pathetic that you can’t just say, “Oh, I was wrong, I didn’t know that.” 
 

The rest of us should use this little exchange to see that you do not conduct yourself with integrity nor honestly.  And you should consider that perhaps you are wrong about a great many other things: The election was not stolen, for starters. 

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9 hours ago, GroundskeeperWillie said:

Well, I know that incitement is a crime, but I really think that people have to take responsibility for their own actions.  They can't just say, "Trump made us storm the capitol".  In a similar vein, the courts should punish the actual actors who committed a crime, they shouldn't blame it on someone else for inciting them, because, like I said, people are adults, they should take responsibility for their own actions.

 

If I told my boyfriend that someone at work had been bothering me, and that he should do something about it or I would lose my job, and he then went and murdered that coworker, this is entirely his fault.  I did not incite him to murder that person.  I did not abet him to do anything.  He needed to take responsibility for what he did.  I did not commit any crime at all.

It's an "and," not an "or."

Yes, the people to stormed the capitol should be held responsible for their actions.

And yes, incitement is, in some circumstances, a crime. And Trump should also be held accountable for what he did to cause the attack.

There is a loooong history in Western legal tradition that apportions blame/responsibility among parties involved. Planners, directors, commanders and requestors of criminal acts or otherwise harmful acts are very often apportioned responsibility for their roles. It doesn't mean that the actors were mindless automatons, it means that they wouldn't have otherwise acted without the guidance or incitement to do so. For example, note that Enrique Tarrio (leader of the Proud Boys) was not even in D.C. on the day of the insurrection, but he has been held accountable for his role in planning and fomenting the attack. 22 years in prison.

Trump absolutely caused the insurrection, from the big lie about the election to the the existential crisis he communicated to his followers. After swearing and oath of loyalty to the constitution, no less. He should be held accountable. 

 

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12 hours ago, Rebound said:

You can’t find mass fraud in even one single frickin’ precinct out of 10,000’s across the country.  

Well, Fox started to, but it didn't take long for demonic cultists to shut them down. 

It's going to take a lot more courage than those guys have to bring this to light. 

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