Were the church fathers Catholic?

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, Yakuda said:

But then verse 51, "I am the living bread come down from heaven (figurative again) Whoever eats this bread (figurative) will live forever; and the bread (figurative) that i will give is my flesh (literal) for the life of the world". 

Then three times following that statement in verses 51, 54 and 55 he mentions his flesh the word bread appears no where in those verses. Then he asks if they are shocked. There is no reason to be shocked if it's figurative.

So you agree he is speaking figuratively in vs51.  It seems they were shocked about Jesus saying he is the living bread and then shocked because anyone who eats this bread will live forever.  They simply did not understand it and were shocked.  That really does not prove anything other than they could not accept what Jesus was saying.  Remember faith is a gift of God;  by grace through faith.  Nobody has faith unless or until God gives it to them.

When he said "I will give my flesh for the life of the world", he was referring to the crucifixion.  His sacrifice on the cross was giving his flesh and blood for an atonement for the sins of mankind.  That is the whole reason he came to earth in the first place.  He did not come to earth so anyone could physically eat his flesh and blood.  That is cannibalism.   

" 25  Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. " Hebrews 9:25-28

Edited January 29 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

So you agree he is speaking figuratively in vs51.  It seems they were shocked about Jesus saying he is the living bread and then shocked because anyone who eats this bread will live forever.  They simply did not understand it and were shocked.  That really does not prove anything other than they could not accept what Jesus was saying.  Remember faith is a gift of God;  by grace through faith.  Nobody has faith unless or until God gives it to them.

When he said "I will give my flesh for the life of the world", he was referring to the crucifixion.  His sacrifice on the cross was giving his flesh and blood for an atonement for the sins of mankind.  That is the whole reason he came to earth in the first place.  He did not come to earth so anyone could physically eat his flesh and blood.  That is cannibalism.   

" 25  Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. " Hebrews 9:25-28

He says BOTH in v 51. I literally just showed you that. They didn't misunderstand him. They knew exactly what he meant because he said what he meant. I also showed that in the earliest days of the church they also understood exactly what he meant. The Greek word used is to gnaw on my flesh. 

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, Yakuda said:

He says BOTH in v 51. I literally just showed you that. They didn't misunderstand him. They knew exactly what he meant because he said what he meant. I also showed that in the earliest days of the church they also understood exactly what he meant. The Greek word used is to gnaw on my flesh. 

Communion is a memorial service, not a recreated sacrifice

Catholicism is recreating a sacrifice with the Eucharist, claiming it is the actual body and blood of Christ and offering it up in sacrifice in the Mass.   This is completely contrary to Hebrews where it says Jesus sacrifice was a once for all sacrifice.   It was never to be repeated. 

" 12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. "  Hebrews l0:12-14

 

[Yakuda]

10 hours ago, blackbird said:

Communion is a memorial service, not a recreated sacrifice

Catholicism is recreating a sacrifice with the Eucharist, claiming it is the actual body and blood of Christ and offering it up in sacrifice in the Mass.   This is completely contrary to Hebrews where it says Jesus sacrifice was a once for all sacrifice.   It was never to be repeated. 

" 12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. "  Hebrews l0:12-14

 

It is not being recreated. Youre parroting lies that you have been told. Jesus said it my flesh which is the bread of life come down from heaven. The earliest days of the church believed the exact same thing. You listen to a strip mall pastor not Jesus. 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Yakuda said:

It is not being recreated. Youre parroting lies that you have been told. Jesus said it my flesh which is the bread of life come down from heaven. The earliest days of the church believed the exact same thing. You listen to a strip mall pastor not Jesus. 

The is what the Catechism right from the Vatican says:

"1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. the Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. the fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior."

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText (vatican.va)

Actually I don't think you are correct.  The sacraments especially the Mass are taught as necessary for salvation.  That is what the Catechism says above.  The whole RC system is set up to put enormous power in the hands of the church, the priests, etc. through the sacraments.  You have to admit this.  This is a false system and spiritually deadly.

This is totally contrary to what Jesus said in the Bible in countless places.   
That is why the Protestant Reformation was absolutely necessary.

The Bible teaches salvation comes through a personal relationship between an individual and Jesus Christ.  The countless verses in the gospel of John say that clearly.  No where is it taught that one must have sacraments and the church to save a person.  

Edited January 30 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

43 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The is what the Catechism right from the Vatican says:

"1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. the Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. the fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior."

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText (vatican.va)

Actually I don't think you are correct.  The sacraments especially the Mass are taught as necessary for salvation.  That is what the Catechism says above.  The whole RC system is set up to put enormous power in the hands of the church, the priests, etc. through the sacraments.  You have to admit this.  This is a false system and spiritually deadly.

This is totally contrary to what Jesus said in the Bible in countless places.   
That is why the Protestant Reformation was absolutely necessary.

The Bible teaches salvation comes through a personal relationship between an individual and Jesus Christ.  The countless verses in the gospel of John say that clearly.  No where is it taught that one must have sacraments and the church to save a person.  

But Scripture does say you need the sacraments. Just for starters Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". Who is speaking those words in that verse? Then there is 1 Peter 3:21 "This water prefigured baptism, which now saves you". They are all over Scripture but your strip mall pastor apparently knows more than St Ignatius of Antioch who was a disciple of the apostle John. What amazes me is how you people ignore Scripture and the church fathers in favor of a pastor with a certificate in preaching and you have the gall to say we listen to men and not Scripture. Hilarious 

Edited January 30 by Yakuda

[blackbird]

54 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Who is speaking those words in that verse? Then there is 1 Peter 3:21 "This water prefigured baptism, which now saves you".

There are over 100 verses that say salvation is by faith or grace through faith.

You misinterpret the above verse.  It is not saying the water baptism saves one.  Baptism is symbolic of being born again by the Holy Spirit when one comes to faith.  It is not some magical action by a priest sprinkling some water on a baby and pronouncing some words.

"5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "  John 3:3

It is not saying the water saves a person.  The emphasis is on the Spirit.  As many verses say salvation is by grace through faith.  The sacrament of baptism does not save anyone.  It is symbolic of one who is saved by Jesus Christ.

You can't just take one verse that on the surface seems to say water baptism saves a person if that interpretation is contrary to the rest of the Bible which say in countless places salvation is by faith.  Scripture must be interpreted and understood in the light of other parts of the Bible.  Cherry picking one verse when countless other verses make it clear is not the way to interpret it.  The Bible is clear in countless verses salvation is by grace through faith.  See how Abraham was justified before God.  Paul uses him as an example.

This is another case where the RCC uses sacraments to supposedly administer salvation.  It gives immense power to the RCC.  The RC Catechism describes all these sacraments and how the church supposedly has all this immense power over the people. 

No sacraments or church can save a person.  Salvation is only by grace through faith.  That is what justifies a person.  In order to be justified one must come to Christ by faith alone in his finished work on the cross.  That is all explained in Romans ch3, 4, 5 and Galatians.  If you are adding works to try to be justified you are under a curse according to Galatians.

Or if you are adding the sacrament of baptism to receive salvation, you are adding something other than grace through faith.  That is contrary to what the Apostle Paul taught in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians.  Justification is only by grace through faith.

I quoted from the Vatican's catechism where it says clearly the sacraments administer salvation.  That is a lie.  It is the biggest deception possible.  Totally contrary to the Bible.

Edited January 30 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

There are over 100 verses that say salvation is by faith or grace through faith.

You misinterpret the above verse.  It is not saying the water baptism saves one.  Baptism is symbolic of being born again by the Holy Spirit when one comes to faith.  It is not some magical action by a priest sprinkling some water on a baby and pronouncing some words.

"5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "  John 3:3

It is not saying the water saves a person.  The emphasis is on the Spirit.  As many verses say salvation is by grace through faith.  The sacrament of baptism does not save anyone.  It is symbolic of one who is saved by Jesus Christ.

You can't just take one verse that on the surface seems to say water baptism saves a person if that interpretation is contrary to the rest of the Bible which say in countless places salvation is by faith.  Scripture must be interpreted and understood in the light of other parts of the Bible.  Cherry picking one verse when countless other verses make it clear is not the way to interpret it.  The Bible is clear in countless verses salvation is by grace through faith.  See how Abraham was justified before God.  Paul uses him as an example.

This is another case where the RCC uses sacraments to supposedly administer salvation.  It gives immense power to the RCC.  The RC Catechism describes all these sacraments and how the church supposedly has all this immense power over the people. 

No sacraments or church can save a person.  Salvation is only by grace through faith.  That is what justifies a person.  In order to be justified one must come to Christ by faith alone in his finished work on the cross.  That is all explained in Romans ch3, 4, 5 and Galatians.  If you are adding works to try to be justified you are under a curse according to Galatians.

Or if you are adding the sacrament of baptism to receive salvation, you are adding something other than grace through faith.  That is contrary to what the Apostle Paul taught in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians.  Justification is only by grace through faith.

I quoted from the Vatican's catechism where it says clearly the sacraments administer salvation.  That is a lie.  It is the biggest deception possible.  Totally contrary to the Bible.

It's irrelevant ho may verses there are. It's not either or it's both and. You seem to think volume equal accuracy. I know the truth creates some cognitive dissonance for you but that's not my problem. Your listening to a strip mall pastor who was a cashier two weeks ago won't cut it. 

Edited January 30 by Yakuda

[blackbird]

50 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

It's irrelevant ho may verses there are. It's not either or it's both and. You seem to think volume equal accuracy. I know the truth creates some cognitive dissonance for you but that's not my problem. Your listening to a strip mall pastor who was a cashier two weeks ago won't cut it. 

NO.  You just admitted you don't know how to understand the Bible or care for that matter.  If you interpret one verse in a way that contradicts the many other verses in the Bible, you need to question your interpretation.  You can't interpret one verse one way and ignore the rest of the Bible.

You listen to the inventions of men rather than the Bible it appears.  Catechisms are obvious inventions of men.  They are not supported by the Bible.  But then, what can we expect from the RCC which places "tradition" or the ideas of men of equal authority with the Bible.  The result is all the false teachings of Rome that completely contradict the Bible.

I have not met a strip mall pastor, but I could probably find lots of regular pastors who would have a far better understanding of the Bible.  You don't even accept the Bible as an authority so what can we say.

Edited January 30 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

31 minutes ago, blackbird said:

NO.  You just admitted you don't know how to understand the Bible or care for that matter.  If you interpret one verse in a way that contradicts the many other verses in the Bible, you need to question your interpretation.  You can't interpret one verse one way and ignore the rest of the Bible.

You listen to the inventions of men rather than the Bible it appears.  Catechisms are obvious inventions of men.  They are not supported by the Bible.  But then, what can we expect from the RCC which places "tradition" or the ideas of men of equal authority with the Bible.  The result is all the false teachings of Rome that completely contradict the Bible.

I have not met a strip mall pastor, but I could probably find lots of regular pastors who would have a far better understanding of the Bible.  You don't even accept the Bible as an authority so what can we say.

Jesus himself says "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not will be condemned." Why are you constantly rejecting what Jesus is plainly saying? It's NOT an interpretation to quote what Jesus said. You don't like what he says because it goes against what you call a pastor tells you. I get it. If I were you I would rail against the truth of the Catholic church too. The truth aggravates people. 

I give you the words of Jesus you reject them. I give you the words of Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of the apostle John and you reject them. That's on you and your "pastor".

I have no reason to believe your interpretation of Scripture is authoritative when you reject Jesus and a disciple of John the apostle. You are deluded if you think I will believe any interpretation you have. 

 

Edited January 30 by Yakuda

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Yakuda said:

Jesus himself says "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not will be condemned." Why are you constantly rejecting what Jesus is plainly saying? It's NOT an interpretation to quote what Jesus said. You don't like what he says because it goes against what you call a pastor tells you. I get it. If I were you I would rail against the truth of the Catholic church too. The truth aggravates people. 

I give you the words of Jesus you reject them. I give you the words of Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of the apostle John and you reject them. That's on you and your "pastor".

I have no reason to believe your interpretation of Scripture is authoritative when you reject Jesus and a disciple of John the apostle. You are deluded if you think I will believe any interpretation you have. 

 

You don't have to believe me.  Study the Bible.

quote

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:   (Read More...)

Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 15:1-27 - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.   (Read More...)

Acts 16:30-33 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?   (Read More...)

Psalms 3:8 - Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Psalms 37:39 - But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

Psalms 62:1 - (To the chief Musician, to Jeduthun, A Psalm of David.) Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation.

Acts 28:28 - Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Romans 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

John 3:16-18 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   (Read More...)

Psalms 60:5 - That thy beloved may be delivered; save with thy right hand, and hear me.

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

John 3:17-21 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.   (Read More...)

Acts 2:1-47 - And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.   (Read More...)

Acts 2:36-41 - Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.   (Read More...)

unquote

BIBLE VERSES ABOUT SALVATION (kingjamesbibleonline.org)

quote

The belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is also known as "baptismal regeneration." It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. We strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4 declares, “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” The action of being immersed in the water illustrates dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection.


Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.

Yes, there are some verses that seem to indicate baptism as a requirement for salvation. However, since the Bible so clearly tells us that salvation is received by faith alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5), there must be a different interpretation of those verses. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. In Bible times, a person who converted from one religion to another was often baptized to identify conversion. Baptism was the means of making a decision public. Those who refused to be baptized were saying they did not truly believe. So, in the minds of the apostles and early disciples, the idea of an un-baptized believer was unheard of. When a person claimed to believe in Christ, yet was ashamed to proclaim his faith in public, it indicated that he did not have true faith.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius” (1 Corinthians 1:14)? Why would he have said, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17)? Granted, in this passage Paul is arguing against the divisions that plagued the Corinthian church. However, how could Paul possibly say, “I am thankful that I did not baptize…” or “For Christ did not send me to baptize…” if baptism were necessary for salvation? If baptism is necessary for salvation, Paul would literally be saying, “I am thankful that you were not saved…” and “For Christ did not send me to save…” That would be an unbelievably ridiculous statement for Paul to make. Further, when Paul gives a detailed outline of what he considers the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-8), why does he neglect to mention baptism? If baptism is a requirement for salvation, how could any presentation of the gospel lack a mention of baptism?   unquote

Is baptism necessary for salvation? | GotQuestions.org

There are many many verses that say salvation is by faith alone in Christ.

So if you believe that baptism is absolutely necessary, how do you explain the fact Jesus told the thief on the cross near him that he would be in paradise today?  He could not have been baptized.

 

 

 

 

[Yakuda]

53 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You don't have to believe me.  Study the Bible.

quote

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:   (Read More...)

Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 15:1-27 - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.   (Read More...)

Acts 16:30-33 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?   (Read More...)

Psalms 3:8 - Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Psalms 37:39 - But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

Psalms 62:1 - (To the chief Musician, to Jeduthun, A Psalm of David.) Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation.

Acts 28:28 - Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Romans 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

John 3:16-18 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   (Read More...)

Psalms 60:5 - That thy beloved may be delivered; save with thy right hand, and hear me.

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

John 3:17-21 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.   (Read More...)

Acts 2:1-47 - And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.   (Read More...)

Acts 2:36-41 - Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.   (Read More...)

unquote

BIBLE VERSES ABOUT SALVATION (kingjamesbibleonline.org)

quote

The belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is also known as "baptismal regeneration." It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. We strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4 declares, “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” The action of being immersed in the water illustrates dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection.


Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.

Yes, there are some verses that seem to indicate baptism as a requirement for salvation. However, since the Bible so clearly tells us that salvation is received by faith alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5), there must be a different interpretation of those verses. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. In Bible times, a person who converted from one religion to another was often baptized to identify conversion. Baptism was the means of making a decision public. Those who refused to be baptized were saying they did not truly believe. So, in the minds of the apostles and early disciples, the idea of an un-baptized believer was unheard of. When a person claimed to believe in Christ, yet was ashamed to proclaim his faith in public, it indicated that he did not have true faith.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius” (1 Corinthians 1:14)? Why would he have said, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17)? Granted, in this passage Paul is arguing against the divisions that plagued the Corinthian church. However, how could Paul possibly say, “I am thankful that I did not baptize…” or “For Christ did not send me to baptize…” if baptism were necessary for salvation? If baptism is necessary for salvation, Paul would literally be saying, “I am thankful that you were not saved…” and “For Christ did not send me to save…” That would be an unbelievably ridiculous statement for Paul to make. Further, when Paul gives a detailed outline of what he considers the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-8), why does he neglect to mention baptism? If baptism is a requirement for salvation, how could any presentation of the gospel lack a mention of baptism?   unquote

Is baptism necessary for salvation? | GotQuestions.org

There are many many verses that say salvation is by faith alone in Christ.

So if you believe that baptism is absolutely necessary, how do you explain the fact Jesus told the thief on the cross near him that he would be in paradise today?  He could not have been baptized.

 

 

 

 

Its not what I believe it's what Jesus said. You reject it. As to the thief on the cross God can do what he like with his saving grace. Matt 20:1-16. Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. Volumes of your bogus interpretations doesnt change that fact and scripture says God does what he wills. I almost feel sorry for you that you believe a pastor over Jesus and and a disciple of John the apostle. You speak with no authority 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 1/27/2024 at 8:17 AM, blackbird said:

The purpose of the Bible is not to give a history of mankind.  

That wasn’t my question. Lord, give me strength. I will try to make this simpler: Do you believe yours is the only true religion? 

Edited February 4 by SpankyMcFarland

[blackbird]

22 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

That wasn’t my question. Lord, give me strength. I will try to make this simpler: Do you believe yours is the only true religion? 

Yes.  This website gives a brief explanation.

Why Christianity is the Only True Religion - Christian Evidence

"4. The New Testament’s historical authenticity—that it conveys a truthful account of the actual events as they occurred—is the only right conclusion to reach once all the evidence has been examined. Now, if Jesus is God, then what He says must be true. And if Jesus said that the Bible is inerrant and true in everything it says (which He did), this must mean that the Bible is true in what it proclaim. So anything in the Islamic Koran or writings of Judaism that contradict the Bible cannot be true. In fact, both Islam and Judaism fail since they both say that Jesus is not God incarnate, while the evidence says otherwise. This leaves Christianity."

[Yakuda]

16 hours ago, blackbird said:

Yes.  This website gives a brief explanation.

Why Christianity is the Only True Religion - Christian Evidence

"4. The New Testament’s historical authenticity—that it conveys a truthful account of the actual events as they occurred—is the only right conclusion to reach once all the evidence has been examined. Now, if Jesus is God, then what He says must be true. And if Jesus said that the Bible is inerrant and true in everything it says (which He did), this must mean that the Bible is true in what it proclaim. So anything in the Islamic Koran or writings of Judaism that contradict the Bible cannot be true. In fact, both Islam and Judaism fail since they both say that Jesus is not God incarnate, while the evidence says otherwise. This leaves Christianity."

You've perverted Christianity. Your version of Christianity started in the 1500s. You completely reject the actually Christianity that existed before that. 

Edited February 5 by Yakuda

[OftenWrong]

On 1/29/2024 at 6:13 PM, blackbird said:

So you agree he is speaking figuratively in vs51.  It seems they were shocked about Jesus saying he is the living bread and then shocked because anyone who eats this bread will live forever.  They simply did not understand it and were shocked. 

Well I'm no biblical scholar and it's been a while since I cracked the good book, but I think he was saying in those quotes that he was going to give up his life for the world. And that is why they were upset with him.   🤷‍♂️

[OftenWrong]

On 1/29/2024 at 3:28 PM, French Patriot said:

Kettle to pot, and from a brain dead supernatural believer,

I think the poster is not really a Christian, but seeks to pick your beliefs apart by taking a literalist view of bible writings. Like someone who's an atheist might do. Or a kid.

I flew in an airplane once. We went over the clouds. There was no heaven.

[French Patriot]

18 hours ago, blackbird said:

historical authenticity

Do you believe in talking serpents and donkeys, that are real according to your bible?

What of the seven headed monster of Revelation?

[French Patriot]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I think the poster is not really a Christian, but seeks to pick your beliefs apart by taking a literalist view of bible writings. Like someone who's an atheist might do. Or a kid.

I flew in an airplane once. We went over the clouds. There was no heaven.

I like the way Gnostic Christians think of heaven. It is all around us but few see it.

The Stones had it right when singing that the streets of Eden are full of trash.

If we want a better heaven and future, we have to create it.

[blackbird]

On 1/30/2024 at 8:04 AM, Yakuda said:

What amazes me is how you people ignore Scripture and the church fathers in favor of a pastor with a certificate in preaching and you have the gall to say we listen to men and not Scripture. Hilarious 

You are inventing false claims.   

The truth is Catholicism is full of unbiblical teachings which I pointed out in previous posts.

The history of the Papacy in the past centuries is a very dark one.  You must be aware of the 400 years of the Holy Roman Inquisition which is well-documented.   It was a long period of history where Rome ran a terrible inquisition that arrested countless people for "heresy", tried, tortured and killed perhaps millions of people in various countries.  

There are books available on Amazon which give documented and great detail of the history of the Inquisition in Europe.  Spain was a particularly bad place with the Spanish Inquisition.

There were groups that the Catholic church conducted crusades against such as the Albegenses.  The Catholic church's justification for their genocides against them were they were heretics.  Where is the Bible is the torture, imprisonment, and killing of people justified because they didn't believe in Roman Catholic interpretation of the Bible?  What do you think about the dark history of Rome?  I suspect you have been taught none of this and probably whitewashed it.

As for the so-called "heretical" groups that the Catholic church declared war on, the main source of what their beliefs were come from those who opposed them.. Rome.  So how credible is that?  It is difficult to know exactly what the so-called "heretics" believed because history was written by their destroyers.

That was pure murder by a tyrannical dictatorship that ruled the western world for over a thousand years.  It was the Reformation that brought freedom of religion and escape from the tyrannical system of Rome in some areas of Europe.  Rome had little to nothing to do with Biblical, Apostolic Christianity.  

The whole idea of a totalitarian church ruled by a Pope with priests administering salvation by its sacraments is completely contrary to the simple Biblical faith in Jesus Christ taught in the Bible, which the Apostles and early Christians believed and preached.

 

Edited February 5 by blackbird

[blackbird]

Roman Inquisition - Wikipedia

[Yakuda]

4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Well I'm no biblical scholar and it's been a while since I cracked the good book, but I think he was saying in those quotes that he was going to give up his life for the world. And that is why they were upset with him.   🤷‍♂️

The passage does not support that.

[OftenWrong]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:29 PM, blackbird said:

Now verse 51, Jesus says the bread that he will give is his flesh, which he will give for the life of the world.  How does he give his flesh for the life of the world?  The answer is on the cross.  He shed his blood and died for the sins of the world.  That is how he gave his flesh.

 

1 hour ago, Yakuda said:

The passage does not support that.

You sound so sure.

Looking back now I see that Blackbird said the very same thing I did. We both came to the same conclusion in our interpretation of this metaphor.  Yet he is a devout christian who reads the bible daily, I am not.

See his quote immediately above yours. I bolded the part that made me interpret its meaning this way.

Jesus then implores the apostles to accept his sacrifice, and make the same themselves. This echoes his other statements elsewhere in the bible, "pick up your cross and follow me."

The apostles were upset with him and tried to persuade him not to go through with it. This is also somewhere in the bible. Go look it up.

These interpretations are far more useful and relevant in meaning than simply taking it literally, but you're free to fill your boots with whatever you like. Don't expect everyone else to think you're right.

 

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, French Patriot said:

The Stones had it right when singing

Ahh. For a moment I thought you meant the speaking stones.

 

[Yakuda]

3 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

 

You sound so sure.

Looking back now I see that Blackbird said the very same thing I did. We both came to the same conclusion in our interpretation of this metaphor.  Yet he is a devout christian who reads the bible daily, I am not.

See his quote immediately above yours. I bolded the part that made me interpret its meaning this way.

Jesus then implores the apostles to accept his sacrifice, and make the same themselves. This echoes his other statements elsewhere in the bible, "pick up your cross and follow me."

The apostles were upset with him and tried to persuade him not to go through with it. This is also somewhere in the bible. Go look it up.

These interpretations are far more useful and relevant in meaning than simply taking it literally, but you're free to fill your boots with whatever you like. Don't expect everyone else to think you're right.

 

People have erroneously interpreted that for over 500 years so what? And Jesus says unless you eat (in the Greek the word used is "gnaw") my flesh you will not have life in you. Ignatius of Antioch a disciple of the apostle John says the Eucharist is the flesh of Jesus. Now I can believe Jesus and a disciple of John the apostle or I can believe to random people on the Internet. No offense but you dont speak with any more authority that Jesus or Ignatius.