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Were the church fathers Catholic?


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1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

No offense is taken. Like I said, is a free country. Fill your boots.

If you have some authority greater than Jesus, the apostle John and his disciples Ignatius to refute what they say id love to see it. 

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2 hours ago, Yakuda said:

If you have some authority greater than Jesus, the apostle John and his disciples Ignatius to refute what they say id love to see it. 

I'm not here to prove the metaphysical. And besides, your time is up.

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4 hours ago, Yakuda said:

People have erroneously interpreted that for over 500 years so what? And Jesus says unless you eat (in the Greek the word used is "gnaw") my flesh you will not have life in you. Ignatius of Antioch a disciple of the apostle John says the Eucharist is the flesh of Jesus. Now I can believe Jesus and a disciple of John the apostle or I can believe to random people on the Internet. No offense but you dont speak with any more authority that Jesus or Ignatius. 

Cannibalism is a condemned by the Bible because it is human flesh and blood.  Therefore that cannot be the correct interpretation on that basis alone.

"Cannibalism is mentioned in the Bible. Although there is no direct statement such as, “Thou shalt not eat human flesh,” the obvious indication from Scripture is that cannibalism is a terrible evil.

After the global flood, God gave Noah permission to eat meat. "Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything” (Genesis 9:3). However, God specifies that the “food for you” does not include fellow human beings. People are treated much differently from animals: “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind” (Genesis 9:6).

Cannibalism is mentioned several times in Scripture (Leviticus 26:29; Deuteronomy 28:53-57; Jeremiah 19:9; Lamentations 2:20; 4:10; Ezekiel 5:10), but in each case, the practice is regarded as a horrible curse and inhuman act of desperation. Moses and other prophets predicted that, if the Israelites forsook God, they would fall into such awful degradation as to cannibalize their own children. These harrowing prophecies were fulfilled during the siege of Samaria during the reign of King Jehoram (2 Kings 6:28-29). Cannibalism was the physical horror which accompanied the spiritual horror of apostasy.

Cannibalism has been ritualized in some pagan cultures as part of a religious ceremony or cultural superstition. Thus, not only is the act itself wrong, but also the reason behind the act is wrong. For example, some people groups would eat the flesh of dead family members, believing that doing so would allow the spirits of those who had died to live on. Such cannibalistic rites have no biblical justification. The Bible teaches that the spirit does not remain in the body, nor does it wander around at liberty. A spirit either goes to be with the Lord immediately upon death (2 Corinthians 5:8) or goes to hades to be kept until the judgment (Luke 16:19-26; Revelation 20:11-15). "

What does the Bible say about cannibalism? Is there cannibalism in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

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13 hours ago, blackbird said:

Cannibalism is a condemned by the Bible because it is human flesh and blood.  Therefore that cannot be the correct interpretation on that basis alone.

"Cannibalism is mentioned in the Bible. Although there is no direct statement such as, “Thou shalt not eat human flesh,” the obvious indication from Scripture is that cannibalism is a terrible evil.

After the global flood, God gave Noah permission to eat meat. "Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything” (Genesis 9:3). However, God specifies that the “food for you” does not include fellow human beings. People are treated much differently from animals: “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind” (Genesis 9:6).

Cannibalism is mentioned several times in Scripture (Leviticus 26:29; Deuteronomy 28:53-57; Jeremiah 19:9; Lamentations 2:20; 4:10; Ezekiel 5:10), but in each case, the practice is regarded as a horrible curse and inhuman act of desperation. Moses and other prophets predicted that, if the Israelites forsook God, they would fall into such awful degradation as to cannibalize their own children. These harrowing prophecies were fulfilled during the siege of Samaria during the reign of King Jehoram (2 Kings 6:28-29). Cannibalism was the physical horror which accompanied the spiritual horror of apostasy.

Cannibalism has been ritualized in some pagan cultures as part of a religious ceremony or cultural superstition. Thus, not only is the act itself wrong, but also the reason behind the act is wrong. For example, some people groups would eat the flesh of dead family members, believing that doing so would allow the spirits of those who had died to live on. Such cannibalistic rites have no biblical justification. The Bible teaches that the spirit does not remain in the body, nor does it wander around at liberty. A spirit either goes to be with the Lord immediately upon death (2 Corinthians 5:8) or goes to hades to be kept until the judgment (Luke 16:19-26; Revelation 20:11-15). "

What does the Bible say about cannibalism? Is there cannibalism in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

So your giving me your infallible interpretation of scripture and as such I should ignore Jesus, John the apostle and his disciple Ignatius? Is that right? Yes or no? 

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2 hours ago, Yakuda said:

So your giving me your infallible interpretation of scripture and as such I should ignore Jesus, John the apostle and his disciple Ignatius? Is that right? Yes or no? 

 Nobody is "infallible".  Only God is infallible.  

You mentioned Jesus and the apostle John.  

I believe the Scriptures are infallible.   I don't believe my interpretation is infallible.

Is your interpretation infallible?

Is Ignatius' interpretation infallible?

Do you believe the Holy Scriptures are infallible?

Is the Pope's interpretation infallible?

Is the Catholic Church's teaching in the catechism infallible?

 

Edited by blackbird
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45 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 I'm glad to see you're finally thinking and engaging and not just spewing. 

Nobody is "infallible".  Only God is infallible. 

No one is infallible that's correct. No God is perfect. That's not the same as infallible 

You mentioned Jesus and the apostle John.  

Yes I did and Johns disciple Ignatius 

I believe the Scriptures are infallible.   I don't believe my interpretation is infallible.

True. Also true and why I don't feel compelled to accept your interpretation 

Is your interpretation infallible?

What I've shared isnt my interpretation. 

Is Ignatius' interpretation infallible?

Well I wouldn't call it infallible but it's much closer to the truth as he was a disciple of an Apostle. His word holds far more weight than your interpretation of mine. I merely repeat what he wrote. 

Do you believe the Holy Scriptures are infallible?

There are no mistakes in Scripture so yes 

Is the Pope's interpretation infallible?

If he speaks ex cathedra yes. Do you happen to know how many times  the pope has spoken infallibly in 2000+ years? 

Is the Catholic Church's teaching in the catechism infallible?

Yes

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Is the Pope's interpretation infallible?

If he speaks ex cathedra yes. Do you happen to know how many times  the pope has spoken infallibly in 2000+ years? 

Is the Catholic Church's teaching in the catechism infallible?

Yes

Can you back that up with Holy Scripture?

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17 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Yes I did and Johns disciple Ignatius 

You keep mentioning Ignatius.  He is not an apostle and is not infallible.  Some early church believers were deemed heretics. 

The bottom line is the Bible is the final authority as taught by the Holy Spirit, not fallible men like Popes, church councils, catechisms, etc. which are all fallible.  Show me in the Bible where Popes, councils, church fathers, catechisms are infallible.

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2 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Now show from holy Scripture where it says everything must be found in Scripture 

"20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

I will look into those verses you mentioned.

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11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You keep mentioning Ignatius.  He is not an apostle and is not infallible.  Some early church believers were deemed heretics. 

The bottom line is the Bible is the final authority as taught by the Holy Spirit, not fallible men like Popes, church councils, catechisms, etc. which are all fallible.  Show me in the Bible where Popes, councils, church fathers, catechisms are infallible.

Yes Tertullian did utter heresies later in his life but what truth he wrote remains truth 

Show me where the bible says it is the final authority. 

Edited by Yakuda
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1 minute ago, blackbird said:

"20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

I will look into those verses you mentioned.

That says nothing about you must find everything in Scripture

Yes you will and you will deny every word. Your heart and mind are not open. It would be monumentally difficult for you to admit you're wrong but you are. 

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3 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

That says nothing about you must find everything in Scripture

Yes you will and you will deny every word. Your heart and mind are not open. It would be monumentally difficult for you to admit you're wrong but you are. 

I just gave you Isaiah 8:20 which shows if it is not in scripture there is no light in them.

"

Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

No prophecy of scripture ever comes about by the prophet’s own imagination, for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God (2 Peter 1:20-21).

You either believe God's Holy Scripture or you don't.  You can't have it both ways.  God's word is infallible; men are not.

You mentioned John 16:12-14.  Give me a chance to examine that.  I will get back to you.

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17 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I just gave you Isaiah 8:20 which shows if it is not in scripture there is no light in them.

"

Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

No prophecy of scripture ever comes about by the prophet’s own imagination, for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God (2 Peter 1:20-21).

You either believe God's Holy Scripture or you don't.  You can't have it both ways.  God's word is infallible; men are not.

You mentioned John 16:12-14.  Give me a chance to examine that.  I will get back to you.

You haven't shown that anything I've said isn't in Scripture. All you've don't is try to convince me that your fallible interpretation of Scripture is more worthy of belief that what Jesus said, the apostle John said what John's disciple Ignatius said. 

Useful for teaching NOT the final authority. That's what you believe NOT what it says. 

Jesus gave authority to Peter and the apostles their word is worthy of belief yours isn't 

You can examine it all you like but you will need to convince me why i should believe you over the teachings of a church created by Jesus himself. 

BTW while you're doing your "examination" give me the chapter and verse in Scripture it says what books should be in Scripture. Thank you in advance. 

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2 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

You can examine it all you like but you will need to convince me why i should believe you over the teachings of a church created by Jesus himself. 

I am not saying you should believe me over the teachings of anything.

I gave you several verses to show whatever is taught or claimed about spiritual matters must be in accordance with the Bible.

You mentioned John 16 which speaks about the Holy Spirit.  I was just starting to look into it and remembered the warning in Revelation ch20.  The last few verses of the Bible say:

"18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. "   Rev. 22:18

This clearly says nobody can add to what God has said in this book or take away from the words in the book.  So that means the Bible was completed.  Nobody can say they are speaking for God infallibly once the Bible was completed.  There were no more written Biblical revelations after the Apostolic age.   Some churches have people who claim they have a revelation from God such as in the charismatic movement (Penticostals for example).  But they are wrong.  When one tries to say they are speaking a message from God that is unbiblical and trying to add or take away from what God has already said in the Bible.

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10 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

You can examine it all you like but you will need to convince me why i should believe you over the teachings of a church created by Jesus himself. 

I don't need to convince you of anything.  I gave you lots of information.  You can also research this subject in various sources and articles.  You don't believe what I say on anything so why should I spend a huge amount of time trying to convince you.  I gave you verses.  Just answer one question.  Where does it say in the Bible the church is the final authority or interpreter of Scripture?

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2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I am not saying you should believe me over the teachings of anything.

I gave you several verses to show whatever is taught or claimed about spiritual matters must be in accordance with the Bible.

You mentioned John 16 which speaks about the Holy Spirit.  I was just starting to look into it and remembered the warning in Revelation ch20.  The last few verses of the Bible say:

"18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. "   Rev. 22:18

This clearly says nobody can add to what God has said in this book or take away from the words in the book.  So that means the Bible was completed.  Nobody can say they are speaking for God infallibly once the Bible was completed.  There were no more written Biblical revelations after the Apostolic age.   Some churches have people who claim they have a revelation from God such as in the charismatic movement (Penticostals for example).  But they are wrong.  When one tries to say they are speaking a message from God that is unbiblical and trying to add or take away from what God has already said in the Bible.

You've stopped thinking and are spewing again. You keep saying Scripture is the final authority but haven't shown where Scripture says that. 

Jesus gave power to bind and loose to Peter and the apostles. 

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Just now, Yakuda said:

You've stopped thinking and are spewing again. You keep saying Scripture is the final authority but haven't shown where Scripture says that. 

Jesus gave power to bind and loose to Peter and the apostles. 

I just gave you Isaiah 8:20.  If anyone is not speaking according to the word, that is, the Bible, there is no light in them.

"16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: " 2 Timothy 3:16

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Just now, blackbird said:

I don't need to convince you of anything.  I gave you lots of information.  You can also research this subject in various sources and articles.  You don't believe what I say on anything so why should I spend a huge amount of time trying to convince you.  I gave you verses.  Just answer one question.  Where does it say in the Bible the church is the final authority or interpreter of Scripture?

Whoa hang on there....I can research this subject in various sources and articles?????? You're kidding me right? 

I gave that to you Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18. Acts 15:1-10

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6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I just gave you Isaiah 8:20.  If anyone is not speaking according to the word, that is, the Bible, there is no light in them.

"16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: " 2 Timothy 3:16

Profitable for doctrine not the sole authority. Repeating it doesnt make it mean what you want it to mean. 

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Apostles were given the authority to teach which they did with the Holy Scriptures, which we now have.  The Apostolic age ended and there are no more apostles today.

They did not have the scripture we have now. And John the apostle taught it atius if Antioch who speaks.of bishops and if you work outside the bishops you are outside the church .

Where does Scripture say which books should be in Scripture 

Edited by Yakuda
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Just now, Yakuda said:

Whoa hang on there....I can research this subject in various sources and articles?????? You're kidding me right? 

Pardon me.  I just realized you are opposed to any other information or sources.  But why do you accept cathechism or church teaching over the Bible then?  You reject anything I say but claim you have sources other than the Bible that are infallible.  That is seriously questionable.

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2 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Profitable for doctrine not the sole authority. Repeating it doesnt make it mean what you want it to mean. 

They did not have the scripture we have now. Where does Scripture say which books should be in Scripture 

I have to admit, I am perhaps not qualified to take on a radical Papist like yourself.  I am a simple believer in Jesus Christ and his word, the Holy Bible.  It is between you and God to sort out what you believe.  I have tried, but you seem pretty close-minded. I give you verses but you just dismiss them.  I don't see much more I can do at this moment in time.  Maybe later I might have something to say, but I must bow out.  We are just going around in circles I think.  Will let it go for now.

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