BeaverFever Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 (edited) 2 hours ago, Legato said: the other would be a hotbed of hate, weapons caches, religious intolerance etc. But you claim that is how the Palestinian territories are now anyway right? Edited January 23 by BeaverFever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 2 hours ago, taxesanddeath said: You are right. Having said that, there are at least over 70% (I remember it is over 80%) on one side believing it but only a few wingnuts on the other side. It is not fair to say that they are the same. Let us get real here, if Yahweh and Allah come down and give you total authority to implement a two-state solution, can you do it? do you roll back to the 1947 stage or make the current stage boundary line? I believe the two-state solution was done after the beginning of the Arab-Israeli war in 1948. I believe “pre-1967 boundaries” is the starting point. It can solved as long as people ignore the radicals from both sides At the height of the last peace process 30 years ago support was 65% ong both Palestinians and Israelis. But then hardliner extremists from BOTH sides sabotaged it, which is so easy to do. And the Israeli PM was assassinated by a radical member of an Israeli youth party connected to Netanyahu’s party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 2 hours ago, Legato said: Correct. We the plebs can see that. Yet, many so called experts speaking with their all knowing voices keep pushing for it. As I keep saying repeatedly Palestinian Authority recognized Israel’s right to exist in 1993, without Israel doing the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 4 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: I've always believed Israel should have been placed in Oregon. A homeland for European Jews should have been in Europe - carved out of Germany and it's allies. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legato Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 1 hour ago, BeaverFever said: But you claim that is how the Palestinian territories are now anyway right? The only claim I made was in the Yukon territory. So how did you come to that conclusion? Or should I say confusion. 1 hour ago, BeaverFever said: As I keep saying repeatedly Palestinian Authority recognized Israel’s right to exist in 1993, without Israel doing the same. Are you saying that with your all knowing voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 39 minutes ago, Legato said: The only claim I made was in the Yukon territory. So how did you come to that conclusion? Or should I say confusion. So you’re saying the Occupied Territories aren’t currently a “hotbed of hate weapons caches, religious intolerance etc” currently or if the occupation continues, but would be if they had a state that could control theirs own water supply, infrastructure, taxes etc? Are you saying that with your all-knowing voice? 42 minutes ago, Legato said: Are you saying that with your all knowing voice. Yea because that was a key provision of the much publicized Oslo Accords, something we all-knowing folks like to call a documented fact of history Seriously do your homework and I won’t have to use my all-knowing voice on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legato Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 5 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: So you’re saying the Occupied Territories aren’t currently a “hotbed of hate weapons caches, religious intolerance etc” currently or if the occupation continues, but would be if they had a state that could control theirs own water supply, infrastructure, taxes etc? Are you saying that with your all-knowing voice? Yea because that was a key provision of the much publicized Oslo Accords, something we all-knowing folks like to call a documented fact of history Seriously do your homework and I won’t have to use my all-knowing voice on you. See there you go again. Occupied territories. Whose occupying what? The Palestinian Authority has zero influence over Hamas. The accord broke down in 1995 after a string of attacks by Hamas. Sorry, don't want to hear your all knowing voice. Not fond of country bumpkin music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suds Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 7 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: I would be upset if the UN suddenly kicked me out of the house my family had lived in for generations. That's a bit outrageous to say the least. Try reading the actual text of Resolution 181 and then tell me what you think. For example..... 1.Citizenship. Palestinian citizens residing in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, as well as Arabs and Jews who, not holding Palestinian citizenship, reside in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem shall, upon the recognition of independence, become citizens of the State in which they are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights. Persons over the age of eighteen years may opt, within one year from the date of recognition of independence of the State in which they reside, for citizenship of the other State, providing that no Arab residing in the area of the proposed Arab State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Jewish State and no Jew residing in the proposed Jewish State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Arab State. The exercise of this right of option will be taken to include the wives and children under eighteen years of age of persons so opting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 3 hours ago, BeaverFever said: As I keep saying repeatedly Palestinian Authority recognized Israel’s right to exist in 1993, without Israel doing the same. And then hooked up with Hamas. And that ended that. You're not being reasonable in the slightest with any of this. "from the river to the sea' is a thing. You claim that all you need to do is ignore the radicals but you must know that is not possible. Those radicals just slaughtered 1500 people, that's not something you can ignore. You are living in a fantasy if you think that's just suddenly going to go away. It's not a real thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 7 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: I would be upset if the UN suddenly kicked me out of the house my family had lived in for generations. It literally happens to everyone tho. My family fled their lands they'd owned for generations in the ukraine during the russian revolution. Uprooted, all their possessions stolen, much of the family dead other than the shirts on their back, forced to start a new life where they didn't even know the language with no money and just a bit of land the gov't gave them, and yeah - opa used to be a little sad about it. Through history it's happened many times to most cultures at some point. It's basically how Australia came to be, The ENTIRE middle east and roman and germanic and french lands were basically one migration story after another as tribes fled after being displaced, etc etc. You freaking get over it and you move on. It happened. That sucks. So you start again and rebuild your life as best as you can and thats just how it works. Violently trying to rewind the clock to an earlier time will get these people killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suds Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 (edited) 14 hours ago, CdnFox said: It literally happens to everyone tho. My family fled their lands they'd owned for generations in the ukraine during the russian revolution. Uprooted, all their possessions stolen, much of the family dead other than the shirts on their back, forced to start a new life where they didn't even know the language with no money and just a bit of land the gov't gave them, and yeah - opa used to be a little sad about it. Through history it's happened many times to most cultures at some point. It's basically how Australia came to be, The ENTIRE middle east and roman and germanic and french lands were basically one migration story after another as tribes fled after being displaced, etc etc. You freaking get over it and you move on. It happened. That sucks. So you start again and rebuild your life as best as you can and thats just how it works. Violently trying to rewind the clock to an earlier time will get these people killed. War, more than anything else changes things. The Ottomans were in fact occupiers when they conquered Palestine in 1516. The British became occupiers when they were handed the mandate to rule after WW1. Presently the Israelis have been occupiers since the 1967 war. More importantly, the religion of the occupiers has changed from Islam to Christianity, to Judaism. The Ottomans never treated those living in Palestine fairly (and there were revolts) especially over taxes that made land ownership almost impossible for the average Palestinian, and conscription. They lived under a feudal system where most of the land was owned by rich sheiks who lived in other countries. But the difference was that it was Muslims ruling over other Muslims. When the UN Commission on the Partition of Palestine laid bare their plans they offered something to those in that part of the world never witnessed before... sovereignty, democracy, economic union, and a whole host of civil and religious rights. But instead, war broke out and they let it all slip away. Edited January 23 by suds 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 14 hours ago, CdnFox said: It happened. It's still happening right now because people like you, despite knowing better, support it. Stopping this deferential suck holery to the world's bastards from conservatives is now or should be the main thrust of progressivism everywhere around the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 6 minutes ago, eyeball said: It's still happening right now because people like you, despite knowing better, support it. Of for sure. Hamas came to me before the attack and asked if i was ok with it, and i was like "i'm all in boys, here's some nails for their genitals". Go bang your head on something hard. Quote Stopping this deferential suck holery to the world's bastards from conservatives is now or should be the main thrust of progressivism everywhere around the world. That's what they said when they asked for the nails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 8 minutes ago, suds said: The Ottomans never treated those living in Palestine fairly (and there were revolts) especially over taxes that made land ownership almost impossible for the average Palestinian Its precisely this sort of economic favouritism from governments, especially colonial, that are so intertwined with the real root causes of war. We're up to our necks in the consequences of this very same sort favouritism as we speak. Its a global perennial issue like climate change...which BTW we'll never solve until we tackle favouritism. 1 minute ago, CdnFox said: Go bang your head on something hard. Like talking to you chuckle-fu cks you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 26 minutes ago, eyeball said: Its precisely this sort of economic favouritism from governments, especially colonial, that are so intertwined with the real root causes of war. We're up to our necks in the consequences of this very same sort favouritism as we speak. Its a global perennial issue like climate change...which BTW we'll never solve until we tackle favouritism. Literally all of that is made up. And the 'root cause' of the war is the hatred the palestinians raise their children with from day one. It's that simple. If palestine wanted peace they'd have it, and prosperity as well. Quote Like talking to you chuckle-fu cks you mean? Well that would be knocking your head against hard facts, but the effect is similar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 18 hours ago, BeaverFever said: As I keep saying repeatedly Palestinian Authority recognized Israel’s right to exist in 1993, without Israel doing the same. You mean the PLO which is and still is, another terrorist organization, they just changed the name the people are still the same....and your comment they ONCE agreed to recognizing Israel means nothing,Israel has agree many more times, than just ONCE, and all were refused...and nothing has changed with HAMAS, they don't want peace, they want what they consider as the entire state of palestine, which includes all of what Israel now owns...Palestinians want the same thing.... Don't get dragged into this taking of side of terrorist , Beaver your better than that...one can not support terrorist or it's people ever.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 12 hours ago, Army Guy said: You mean the PLO which is and still is, another terrorist organization, they just changed the name the people are still the same.... No I mean the PA which was recognized by Israel in 1994. In exchange for PA recognizing Israel’s right to exist Note the Israel didn’t recognize Palestine’s right to exist, simply PA’s limited civil authority on behalf of Palestinian people PA was formed out PLO political wing but it is not “still” a terrorist organization and once again I’ll point out that Israel’s founders were terrorist groups who were allowed to came to the table and form Israel’s first government 12 hours ago, Army Guy said: and your comment they ONCE agreed to recognizing Israel means nothing,Israel has agree many more times, than just ONCE, and all were refused... That is just a false statement. Israel has NEVER ONCE recognized the right for a Palestinian State to exist. PA however officially recognized that eofht as part of the Oslo Accords, which both sides agreed to and signed. That is done treaty. I think where you’re trying to go with this is the Israeli claim that they’ve made various offers for a Palestinian state during the Camp David summit. Forst not that this is not the same as recognizing a Palestinian RIGHT to a state which is a completely different thing. Second, aside from the fact that most if not all of these “offers” were made in bad-faith and/or were non viable like an offer for the Palestinian state to be made out of isolated villages disconnected from each other and only on a fraction of current Palestinian territory and no right of return for even the internally displaced Palestinians much less Palestinians displaced abroad despite the fact that all Jews worldwide have unlimited rights of “return” including to illegal settlements in the OT and even if they can’t prove an ancestor ever lived in Israel. 12 hours ago, Army Guy said: and nothing has changed with HAMAS, Fine kill Has. Stop trying to equate Has with all Palestinians. That’s like saying you’re a Liberal because you’re Canadian and the Canadian PM is Liberal 12 hours ago, Army Guy said: Don't get dragged into this taking of side of terrorist , Beaver your better than that...one can not support terrorist or it's people ever.... Im not “taking the side of terrorists”. Tou can kill all the terrorists for all I care. How best can I explain this? Let’s do a thought exercise: Think of a cause you strongly believe in. Now imagine some ELSE also believes strongly in the same cause but is willing to commit terrorism for it. Does that mean you’re no longer allowed to believe in your cause because you’re “taking the side of a terrorist”? What of Justin Trudeau started sending men to lill conservative families and someone resisted with terrorist, do you have to start supporting Trudeau in order to side against terrorists? Its quite obvious as long as there is Israeli occupation there will he terrorism. Terrorism doesn’t just go away like a bad dream when you kill terrorists its an infinitely renewable resource unless the underlying grievance is addressed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaétan Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 If you want to be involved in wars all over the world, vote for Trudeau, Biden or Poilievre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 9 hours ago, BeaverFever said: No I mean the PA which was recognized by Israel in 1994. In exchange for PA recognizing Israel’s right to exist Note the Israel didn’t recognize Palestine’s right to exist, simply PA’s limited civil authority on behalf of Palestinian people PA was formed out PLO political wing but it is not “still” a terrorist organization and once again I’ll point out that Israel’s founders were terrorist groups who were allowed to came to the table and form Israel’s first government That is just a false statement. Israel has NEVER ONCE recognized the right for a Palestinian State to exist. PA however officially recognized that eofht as part of the Oslo Accords, which both sides agreed to and signed. That is done treaty. I think where you’re trying to go with this is the Israeli claim that they’ve made various offers for a Palestinian state during the Camp David summit. Forst not that this is not the same as recognizing a Palestinian RIGHT to a state which is a completely different thing. Second, aside from the fact that most if not all of these “offers” were made in bad-faith and/or were non viable like an offer for the Palestinian state to be made out of isolated villages disconnected from each other and only on a fraction of current Palestinian territory and no right of return for even the internally displaced Palestinians much less Palestinians displaced abroad despite the fact that all Jews worldwide have unlimited rights of “return” including to illegal settlements in the OT and even if they can’t prove an ancestor ever lived in Israel. Fine kill Has. Stop trying to equate Has with all Palestinians. That’s like saying you’re a Liberal because you’re Canadian and the Canadian PM is Liberal Im not “taking the side of terrorists”. Tou can kill all the terrorists for all I care. How best can I explain this? Let’s do a thought exercise: Think of a cause you strongly believe in. Now imagine some ELSE also believes strongly in the same cause but is willing to commit terrorism for it. Does that mean you’re no longer allowed to believe in your cause because you’re “taking the side of a terrorist”? What of Justin Trudeau started sending men to lill conservative families and someone resisted with terrorist, do you have to start supporting Trudeau in order to side against terrorists? Its quite obvious as long as there is Israeli occupation there will he terrorism. Terrorism doesn’t just go away like a bad dream when you kill terrorists its an infinitely renewable resource unless the underlying grievance is addressed. You'll pick one incident in 94 and then completely ignore what's happened since. It's like you cherry pick the tiniest scraps from history that support "Muh feels" and then ignore the massive huge hunks of history that completely refute it. Isreal was in negotations with the authority for a two state solution in like 2012 2014 (can't rememeber which right now) right until they joined up with hamas and acknowledged hamas entirely. SO whatever got said in the 90's really doesn't matter does it, if WHILE NEGOTIATING they chose to accept the views of a group who DOES NOT accept israel's right to exist , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 1 hour ago, CdnFox said: You'll pick one incident in 94 and then completely ignore what's happened since. Like you picking Oct 7 to justify decades of colonization, occupation and subjugation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 40 minutes ago, eyeball said: Like you picking Oct 7 to justify decades of colonization, occupation and subjugation? Not at all. October 7th was the day Gaza started a war. Pretending it's anything BUT that is simply lying. Your proving my point. You want to cherry pick dates in the past that suit you but you don't want to acknowledge oct 7th for what it is because you support the terrorists and gaza and want to justify the horrible deaths of civillians without warning or declaration. I guess nailing their genitals and burning babies is fine because 1948. 1994 means NOTHING if something else happened in 2014. NOTHING that happened in the past in ANY way shape or form justifies 0ct 7. I'm sure the terrorists appreciate you desperately trying to defend them by claiming that oct 7 was about anything other than oct 7 - but it wasn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 Quote Pretending it's anything BUT that is simply lying. No its simply having a different opinion. Insisting its what you say anyway doesn't make it a fact. Calling everything that triggers you a lie is just weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 29 minutes ago, eyeball said: No its simply having a different opinion. Insisting its what you say anyway doesn't make it a fact. Calling everything that triggers you a lie is just weird. No, when you have a 'different opinion' in defiance of the facts and are aware of the facts, then it's called lying. I know phrases like 'alternate facts' or 'pesronal truths' have been kicked around in the last few years but that's not really a thing. The problem with liars is they always want to blame someone else for the lie. What i said is a simple truth. October 7th was the day Gaza started a war. There's no opinion there, it's not open to interpretation. That's what happened. That was their choice. Nothing before that changes that fact. Its like 'the sun rose in the east today" - simply true. So when you say 'no no - they didnt' start the war you see, someone else started it in 1948", that would be a lie. The war being fought in gaza was started by gaza on october 7 2023. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 8 minutes ago, CdnFox said: I know phrases like 'alternate facts' or 'pesronal truths' have been kicked around in the last few years but that's not really a thing. Then why are you kicking them around? Quote So when you say 'no no - they didnt' start the war you see, someone else started it in 1948", that would be a lie. The war being fought in gaza was started by gaza on october 7 2023. Period. According to your alternate facts perhaps. In my opinion its an inevitable resumption of hostilities that seems to have more to do with some calculation of Iran's. Of course its certainly possible they wanted to start a war, by fanning the ever-smouldering embers of the ME conflict into a blazing conflagration. It's as easy as pie. But there's no more cosmic significance attached to the date Oct 7 than there is the ME conflict, it just is what it is. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 29 minutes ago, eyeball said: Then why are you kicking them around? picking them up from where you lefies threw them and putting them in the garbage isn't "kicking them around". Quote According to your alternate facts perhaps. In my opinion its an inevitable resumption of hostilities that seems to have more to do with some calculation of Iran's. So your imagination. It wasn't iran who crossed the border and took prisoners back to gaza. Again - your 'personal facts' are not facts. Quote Of course its certainly possible they wanted to start a war, by fanning the ever-smouldering embers of the ME conflict into a blazing conflagration. It's as easy as pie. Sure - but enflaming embers isn't starting a war. The war was started by gaza. Quote But there's no more cosmic significance attached to the date Oct 7 than there is the ME conflict, it just is what it is. Period. And what it is would be the date that Gaza started a war with israel. Not 1948, not 1994 or any other date - oct 7. And now they pay the price until they're utterly defeated, same as any war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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