What department in Canada is not broken...

[Army Guy]

Is there a fully functioning department in the Federal government ? Why is everything in such disrepair ?...where is the funding that these departments should have? And how do we fix it all of that with our current level of debt ? and why has the left not noticed this situation....

Ya i know lots of questions, on the left things must appear to be normal, so normal we are asking for new social programs like dental and pharma care, that will cost billions more...yes they are good programs nice to have programs, but apparently we can not fund the ones we already have...and yet these new programs are still being pushed, every Canadian knows that the liberals have doubled our national debt in the last 8 plus years...and rarely is that a concern from the left WHY ? it is like they shrug their shoulders and say fu*k it , debt does not matter. Well apparently it does, atleast according to the BOC, what do they know... left does not care and the right wants them fired...some where in the middle is the truth...

For those that lived through Mr. Chretien years of cuts... I would think no one would be stupid enough to go through that again....and yet here we are, looking into the abyss, without seeing the bottom this time....maybe we should just spend it all triple the national debt live life to the fullest, let our kids , kids worry about debt, and financial ratings, and what our dollar is worth on the world market...For a nation that once had the world by the balls, today we can't even get off the bench...Nobody worth a pinch of political salt is willing to run for PM, it is not worth the price you have they have to pay, and this country is so ungrateful it is laughable...

I mean really some times it is embarrassing to be Canadian and how we allowed this nation to slip to the position we are in now...In the last 20 years what have we as a nation really accomplished either globally or here at home...that is note worthy....

Don't ask what your country can do for you, but rather what can you do for your country, John F Kennedy once said...of course he was not talking to generations who for some reason can not even decide what gender they want to be today, or come to a consensus on the whole global climate change issue, Why our education system knows what is best for our children over their parents...

‘Profound malaise’ lingers in Canada’s diplomatic service, Senate committee finds (msn.com)

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Army Guy

[CdnFox]

19 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

For those that lived through Mr. Chretien years of cuts... I would think no one would be stupid enough to go through that again....and yet here we are, looking into the abyss,

Here's the thing. Services were cut back then because of spending cuts.  But this time - there have been massive spending increases.  Massive.  And despite INCREASED spending service levels crashed.

How the hell do you circle THAT square?

[ExFlyer]

I hate to say it but the way our government departments function is totally our fault.

Having worked within, I can say that most public servants follow the rules before them and the real unfortunate thing is the rules are set because of public demand.

Demand for transparency led to more rules and checks and balances and therefore added time and effort for every task.

Demand for accountability also led to more processes and procedures and therefore more personnel to do that work and that led to extra time and effort.

Demand for dental care will require a huge requirement for personnel, office space, procedures and processes and audit trails and...transparency and accountability and all that will entail.

The public demand for pharma care will be, well, you know the drill. Setting up a department ti manage such a huge undertaking will not be  easy or cheap.

The fact of the matter is, if you demand something and they cave in and give it to you, it cannot be cheap and certainly not be easy. The more you want from government at any level is going to cost you and increase bureaucracy. There is no other way.

So really, are departments broken or, are they so burdened with demanded rules and requirement and appeasements that they can barely breath?

It is easy to criticize but, if you or anyone has a better, more efficient, more open, cheaper way, please step forward.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Michael Hardner]

50 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. I hate to say it but the way our government departments function is totally our fault.

Having worked within, I can say that most public servants follow the rules before them and the real unfortunate thing is the rules are set because of public demand.

Demand for transparency led to more rules and checks and balances and therefore added time and effort for every task.

Demand for accountability also led to more processes and procedures and therefore more personnel to do that work and that led to extra time and effort.

Demand for dental care will require a huge requirement for personnel, office space, procedures and processes and audit trails and...transparency and accountability and all that will entail.

The public demand for pharma care will be, well, you know the drill. Setting up a department ti manage such a huge undertaking will not be  easy or cheap.

The fact of the matter is, if you demand something and they cave in and give it to you, it cannot be cheap and certainly not be easy. The more you want from government at any level is going to cost you and increase bureaucracy. There is no other way.

So really, are departments broken or, are they so burdened with demanded rules and requirement and appeasements that they can barely breath?

2. It is easy to criticize but, if you or anyone has a better, more efficient, more open, cheaper way, please step forward.

 

 

1. 2. The answer is evolutionary but revolutionary: explain to the public that moving forward things will be a lot faster but there will be more failure than you're used to.  Then use partners to build an entirely new model alongside the current bureaucracy.  At a certain point, the new model will start to exceed and will surge in popularity.  Then move people from the old model to the new one.

I also worked for the federal government and was appalled at the degree to which they do things to avoid getting in trouble.  The cure, though, is worse than the disease.  Would you spend an entire day waiting in line for Tylenol to fix a small headache or just deal with it?  The Government chooses the former path.

[ExFlyer]

24 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. 2. The answer is evolutionary but revolutionary: explain to the public that moving forward things will be a lot faster but there will be more failure than you're used to.  Then use partners to build an entirely new model alongside the current bureaucracy.  At a certain point, the new model will start to exceed and will surge in popularity.  Then move people from the old model to the new one.

I also worked for the federal government and was appalled at the degree to which they do things to avoid getting in trouble.  The cure, though, is worse than the disease.  Would you spend an entire day waiting in line for Tylenol to fix a small headache or just deal with it?  The Government chooses the former path.

Yeah, when the government outsources work, it always costs more and adds to the bureaucracy. I cannot think of any departmental outsourcing that has saved time or money. The thing is, there are too many people, like to ones here on this forum, that demand to know everything that goes on all the time. With outsourcing, that means 2 places to monitor and explain.

In my tenure in the public service, I was stunned to know how much the workers wanted to do things efficiently (or differently)  but were constantly stymied by the requirements of the process which was demanded by the public. rules, regulations, processes and procedures were only ever changed because some elected official or public demand caused it.

You are right, the cure (to what actually?) will always be worse. The public seems to think that if the government does it , the cost is hing but in reality, if the government does not do it, then someone else will and that cost seven more.

[blackbird]

11 hours ago, Army Guy said:

apparently we can not fund the ones we already have...and yet these new programs are still being pushed, every Canadian knows that the liberals have doubled our national debt in the last 8 plus years...and rarely is that a concern from the left WHY ?

You hit the nail on the head Army Guy.

Many Canadians expect it all but don't understand somebody has to pay for it.  The Liberals and NDP have capitalized on this perverse thinking.

The  problem is when the debt gets high, the interest for the debt takes over control and take the countries finances.  Interest does not provide any services but because the government has to pay the interest on the debt, that takes away from the finances available for services.

Yet, as you say, the left is constantly demanding more services.  

The consequence of this is the services we have are being deprived of the resources they require to continue to function properly.  We are seeing this with the failing health care system, the failing Canadian Armed Forces.  

While vital existing services are being negatively affected, the Liberals are still going around throwing out billions of dollars.  The latest things include twenty something billion for subsidizing EV battery plants. 

They are also this very day trying to kill the energy industry with new regulations about forcing the cap on emissions.  These regulations are being imposed without a clue how such a thing could be done without seriously undermining or killing the energy industry.  The energy industry is a major source of national and provincial revenue for Canada that provides all the services such as health care, etc.

Meanwhile Canada has buried itself itself in red tape and regulations at all levels of government so that it is nearly impossible to get things done such as building housing, open new mines, and develop natural resources and ship them.  The ideology of the government is also impeding services to the public and paralyzing Canadian initiative and self improvement.  If young people can't afford to pay the outrageous rents to go to university or the tuitions, how will new professionals ever be trained.  Where will the nurses, doctors, and others come from?  It can't be solved by simply bringing in third world immigrants because a lot of them can hardly speak a word of English.  Believe me I know it from personal experience.  The system is putting people who are unable to speak English in high professional positions now.

[Michael Hardner]

53 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. Yeah, when the government outsources work, it always costs more and adds to the bureaucracy. I cannot think of any departmental outsourcing that has saved time or money.

2. The thing is, there are too many people, like to ones here on this forum, that demand to know everything that goes on all the time. With outsourcing, that means 2 places to monitor and explain.

3. In my tenure in the public service, I was stunned to know how much the workers wanted to do things efficiently (or differently)  but were constantly stymied by the requirements of the process which was demanded by the public. rules, regulations, processes and procedures were only ever changed because some elected official or public demand caused it.

4. You are right, the cure (to what actually?) will always be worse. The public seems to think that if the government does it , the cost is hing but in reality, if the government does not do it, then someone else will and that cost seven more.

1.  The oursourcers LOVE bureaucracy.  Because it's easy for them.  Please produce this diversity report ok outsourcer ?  No problem... there's no chance of failure in just pushing paper around vs. providing a service to an actual citizen who might complain.

2.  People need to learn that demanding all of these things doesn't improve their service experience and costs $$$.

3.  I also worked in the PS for a short time and concur.  Most people want things to work well... it's the management culture that is irredeemable unfortunately.

4. There is no way to prescribe excellence.  If it happens, then you have found a four-leaf clover.  Protect it, nurture it, try to make another one.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Michael Hardner

[ExFlyer]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  The oursourcers LOVE bureaucracy.  Because it's easy for them.  Please produce this diversity report ok outsourcer ?  No problem... there's no chance of failure in just pushing paper around vs. providing a service to an actual citizen who might complain.

2.  People need to learn that demanding all of these things doesn't improve their service experience and costs $$$.

3.  I also worked in the PS for a short time and concur.  Most people want things to work well... it's the management culture that is irredeemable unfortunately.

4. There is no way to prescribe excellence.  If it happens, then you have found a four-leaf clover.  Protect it, nurture it, try to make another one.

1. Outsourcing is done because politicians feel the PS are lazy, too expensive and cannot do the job. I wish I could tell you what outsourcing of Military aviation maintenance has cost and done to Military moral.

2. You (we) demand and the government gives.... hence horrendous deficits.

3. Blaming public service management is a red herring. Blaming people that are there to ensure legislated policy, procedures, rules and regulations are complied with should be thanked, not shat upon. As a manager, it was my responsibility to make sure what the workers did or are doing falls within all the rules was my most important function. The fact that many of the rules and regs were a pain in the a$$ or stupid was not my authority to change them. Just to make sure the public gets what they want and under the legislation. managers doing their job.

4. Well, prescribe? The thing is if all is within the rules, then it is excellence. Stupid rules, mind bending regulations, !diotic legislation perhaps but, the folks are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

When you were in the PS, I am sure what you did was as required, not as what you thought was better. You cannot (or extremely rarely) make better rules or processes from within.  We elect people to do what is best for us and make things even better

Edited December 7, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. Blaming public service management is a red herring. Blaming people that are there to ensure legislated policy, procedures, rules and regulations are complied with should be thanked, not shat upon.

2. As a manager, it was my responsibility to make sure what the workers did or are doing falls within all the rules was my most important function.

3. The fact that many of the rules and regs were a pain in the a$$ or stupid was not my authority to change them. Just to make sure the public gets what they want and under the legislation. managers doing their job.

4. Well, prescribe? The thing is if all is within the rules, then it is excellence.

5. what you thought was better. You cannot (or extremely rarely) make better rules or processes from within. 

6. We elect people to do what is best for us and make things even better

1.  I don't think 'management culture' blames people.  It's just a mindset that has to be removed.  

2. Sure.  I would maybe look at the rules then.  But this is interesting to me.

3. What are some examples ?  I apologize in advance because I usually am strongly opinionated and unforgiving on the topic of operations and project management in Canada especially.

4. Strongly disagree with that.  It may be de facto true but it doesn't capture the elusive nature of excellent, the spirit of it IMO.  I have seen it in all walks of life, and I think public delivery could do better than, say, banks.

5. I'm trying to resolve this statement with your statement that following the rules IS excellence ?  Maybe you're trying to say that the current environment deems following the rules as excellent ?  Say, versus value delivered, cost, and speed/convenience to the public user ?

6. And none of them have any experience on how to transform massive organizations.  I read Bob Rae's book and he was so flummoxed with the actions of his Deputy Ministers that he thought they were conspiring to work against him.  I doubt that.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Michael Hardner

[eyeball]

13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

and why has the left not noticed this situation....

Oh shut up.....

I've been pointing out mismanagement, incompetence, corruption and the uselessness of the Dept of Fisheries and Oceans for decades and you know it. I've even pointed out why economists look at the state of fisheries and communities that depend on them the way miners look at canaries.

Why is the right only now getting woke to this?  From where I'm sitting one of the main reasons things are so bad is because conservatives have been comatose for so long.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  I don't think 'management culture' blames people.  It's just a mindset that has to be removed.  

2. Sure.  I would maybe look at the rules then.  But this is interesting to me.

3. What are some examples ?  I apologize in advance because I usually am strongly opinionated and unforgiving on the topic of operations and project management in Canada especially.

4. Strongly disagree with that.  It may be de facto true but it doesn't capture the elusive nature of excellent, the spirit of it IMO.  I have seen it in all walks of life, and I think public delivery could do better than, say, banks.

5. I'm trying to resolve this statement with your statement that following the rules IS excellence ?  Maybe you're trying to say that the current environment deems following the rules as excellent ?  Say, versus value delivered, cost, and speed/convenience to the public user ?

6. And none of them have any experience on how to transform massive organizations.  I read Bob Rae's book and he was so flummoxed with the actions of his Deputy Ministers that he thought they were conspiring to work against him.  I doubt that.

 

1.

2.

3. Thing is, all public servants are beholding to whatever the rules and regs within that department and whatever the situation  is. The "bible" of public service is the supply manual and it is a frightening convoluted document that has either to process, procedure or direction to specific other rules regs and legislation. We are so overwhelmed with these it is easy to get lost and confused. https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/dpa-ppd-eng.html

4. What I mean by excellence in the case of PS work output is that they do it all exactly within the rules. Often not to the satisfaction of the public but, the rules are there because the public demanded them.

5. Not sure why the confusion. If they do the job as required, it certainly is not failure, not even bad so, it is done excellently (sarcastically).

6. Bob Rae flummoxed? When? While NDP leader that nearly killed Ontario and said "“The Liberals are a beanbag kind of party that looks like the last person that sat in it.”"? While he was a Liberal MP that did little? While Liberal leader that did nothing? And now has become some sport of senior diplomat?  Thing is Bob Rae though he was king of the hill and when actual laws, rules and regs stood in the way of his philosophy, he failed. Bob Rae hit the brick wall of previous legislation and made some of his own.  Bottom line is public servants only do what they can within the rules. They will not do otherwise until those rules change.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Oh shut up.....

I've been pointing out mismanagement, incompetence, corruption and the uselessness of the Dept of Fisheries and Oceans for decades and you know it. I've even pointed out why economists look at the state of fisheries and communities that depend on them the way miners look at canaries.

 

And yet you vote liberal.  Soooo ... yeah.

Quote

Why is the right only now getting woke to this? 

The right has pointed out liberal mismanagement, incompetence and corruption for more decades than you. 

The right warned the country that the first trudeau would drive inflation through the roof and that he would be corrupt and that he would rape the west in favour of the east.

Liberal voters like you didn't care.

They utterly destroyed the PC party and wiped it off the map when it became corrupt, Liberals like you have never done that.  Ever.

They warned that Chretien was corrupt, shawinigate for example And blew the whistle on the adscam things.  Again - left wing voters gave him 2 terms and a minority to his successor and co-conspirator martin.

Harper predicted EVERYTHING that TRUDEAU has done - the lies about balancing the budget, the impact of the 'tax on everything' carbon tax, the fact he would raise it which trudeau denied, the china involvement etc etc, and justin has been as corrupt as hell  - being cited for corruption violations in the first 6 months of his rule.

But liberals like you keep voting for him.

 

Meanwhile harper fired a minster for buying expensive orange juice.

Don't whine at the right wing about corruption - it woudl'nt exist if it weren't for you leftie freaks supporting the hell out of it

[I am Groot]

13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Is there a fully functioning department in the Federal government ?

The one that sends out cheques to voters works pretty well.

I understand they're looking to screw that up with a new software system they're developing, though.

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I hate to say it but the way our government departments function is totally our fault.

Having worked within, I can say that most public servants follow the rules before them and the real unfortunate thing is the rules are set because of public demand.

? I guess this explains why you're so averse to the topic of transparency and accountability.  I've always figured you had a greater insight to the issues of transparency and accountability than met the eye. 

Quote

Demand for transparency led to more rules and checks and balances and therefore added time and effort for every task.

No, it's always been a deeply-rooted culture of avoiding transparency within our government that's led to this.  Blaming the public for being distrustful is disgraceful.

 

[eyeball]

32 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And yet you vote liberal.  Soooo ... yeah.

?

 

22 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

The right has pointed out liberal mismanagement, incompetence and corruption for more decades than you.

Except the state of our fisheries is still what it is despite conservatives having been in the driver's seat often enough to have acted on their awareness of how mismanaged, incompetent and corrupt things are. I call bullshit because like everything else you simply default the issue of accountability and transparency to the same old left vs right paradigm.

Army Guy started it.  Exflyer took that a step farther and made it into an issue that pits government against the governed.

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

It is easy to criticize but, if you or anyone has a better, more efficient, more open, cheaper way, please step forward.

Please stfu.

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

?

Aww muffin.  I'd be ashamed of it right now too if i were you.

Quote

Except the state of our fisheries is still what it is despite conservatives having been in the driver's seat often enough to have acted on their awareness of how mismanaged, incompetent and corrupt things are. 

When was that?  In the last 30 years the conservatives have had ONE majority gov't that lasted 4 years. Where are these decades of conservative rule you refer to?

 

 

Quote

I call bullshit because like everything else you simply default the issue of accountability and transparency to the same old left vs right paradigm.

You call bullshit because you can't make an intelligent argument and stomping your feet is your only alternative,

This is a party issue.  The liberals are corrupt as the day is long - the voters allow that so they keep doing it.  Conservatives have pointed this out for generations now.  And when conservatives get in they tend to do better.  And if they don't their supporters destroy the party with no mercy.  not just 'vote them out' - reduce them to ash.

That is all demonstrably and verified true.  So you can' "call bullshit" all you like but the fact is the only one spouting bullshit here is YOU. Don't blame the right for the failings of the liberal party.

[ExFlyer]

36 minutes ago, eyeball said:

? I guess this explains why you're so averse to the topic of transparency and accountability.  I've always figured you had a greater insight to the issues of transparency and accountability than met the eye. 

No, it's always been a deeply-rooted culture of avoiding transparency within our government that's led to this.  Blaming the public for being distrustful is disgraceful.

 

Nope, just telling you why it is what it is. People like you demand and your legislators decide if they should give it to you or if you are a flake and not worth the effort of pleasing you.

Nope, all work takes time and the more effort you want to impose, the more delay you build into the work.

 

17 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Please stfu.

Ha!

You get told the truth and the way it is and all you got is stfu??? LOL

What a loser and a losing quest,

[ExFlyer]

25 minutes ago, eyeball said:

?

 

Except the state of our fisheries is still what it is despite conservatives having been in the driver's seat often enough to have acted on their awareness of how mismanaged, incompetent and corrupt things are. I call bullshit because like everything else you simply default the issue of accountability and transparency to the same old left vs right paradigm.

Army Guy started it.  Exflyer took that a step farther and made it into an issue that pits government against the governed.

You, the one trick pony ,is riding again LOL

There is no left vs right. All governments govern to satisfy their electorate, regardless of which side of the fence they live on.

You forget , or are incapable of realizing, that the governed  get what they ask for....through their elected legislators. Bottom liner loser, is you get what you wanted. When will you get that the government is you....and your desire to be governed. LOL

Edited December 7, 2023 by ExFlyer

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

When was that?  In the last 30 years the conservatives have had ONE majority gov't that lasted 4 years. Where are these decades of conservative rule you refer to?

One term of Conservative rule is all it would have taken.  Mulroney had plenty of time and so did Harper.

10 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You call bullshit because you can't make an intelligent argument and stomping your feet is your only alternative,

No, fishermen made the argument decades ago for alternatives, starting with transparency. Harper's attempt was absolutely pathetic given how easily Trudeau sidestepped it.

[eyeball]

8 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

You, the one trick pony ,is riding again LOL

On the same old one trick issue...Canada is broken....wah.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by eyeball

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

1. Thing is, all public servants are beholding to whatever the rules and regs within that department and whatever the situation  is. The "bible" of public service is the supply manual and it is a frightening convoluted document that has either to process, procedure or direction to specific other rules regs and legislation. We are so overwhelmed with these it is easy to get lost and confused. https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/dpa-ppd-eng.html

2. What I mean by excellence in the case of PS work output is that they do it all exactly within the rules. Often not to the satisfaction of the public but, the rules are there because the public demanded them.

3. Not sure why the confusion. If they do the job as required, it certainly is not failure, not even bad so, it is done excellently (sarcastically).

4. Bottom line is public servants only do what they can within the rules. They will not do otherwise until those rules change.

1. Such things are part of management culture, yes.
2. Self-defining what success means is a bad sign.
3. No, but 'success' has a meaning in the real world and it sounds like that isn't happening.
4. The point is his inability to understand the culture of organizations like ... the civil service, small business, banks, education... academia... these things are not understandable by his type.

[CdnFox]

57 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Quote

One term of Conservative rule is all it would have taken.  Mulroney had plenty of time and so did Harper.

That's just stupid. If you're going to make 1diotic statements like that then tell your mom to pack you a lunch and get your ass to elementary school where you belong.

You're not going to fix the problems with the atlantic fisheries in 4 years.

Mulroney MAYBE had enough time - but he was focused on the huge debt left by trudeau and in the end when he turned out to be corrupt the Conservative voters burned that party to the ground.

Harper - he never had the time to do much of anything. He had one actual term between 2011 and 2015.  That's it. 

And once again your conflating 'stuff you don't like' with corruption. You might think harper should have paid more attention to the fisheries but the fact is that's policy not corruption.

 

See this is why nobody takes you seriously. You spout on about transparency and corruption but you REFUSE to admit the liberals were corrupt, you insist it's all about the CPC, and when pressed on the matter it turns out you just don't like their policy.  As if them not doing what you like is somehow 'corruption'.

When you get out of elementary school thinking and start taking this seriously, then you can start talking about what "you've told people before'  - but right now there's just no truth in it at all.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

On the same old one trick issue...Canada is broken....wah.

 

So sad, your one trick is old. Everybody knows how feeble you are now LOL

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You're not going to fix the problems with the atlantic fisheries in 4 years.

The problem that needs fixing is transparency and accountability. That could happen with a just a few principled strokes of a pen.