Israel Orders Mass Gaza Evacuations as It Expands Operation

[Deluge]

Do as they say, Palestine, you know they're not bullshitting.

https://www.newsmax.com/world/globaltalk/israel-hamas-war/2023/12/04/id/1144616/

[Deluge]

1 hour ago, Deluge said:

Do as they say, Palestine, you know they're not bullshitting.

https://www.newsmax.com/world/globaltalk/israel-hamas-war/2023/12/04/id/1144616/

Leftoids would have people think that Israel is just out for a good slaughter, but the intelligent and informed understand that Israel is doing what it must, but with fair warning. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Deluge

[Rebound]

26 minutes ago, Deluge said:

Leftoids would have people think that Israel is just out for a good slaughter, but the intelligent and informed understand that Israel is doing what it must, but with fair warning. 

Intelligent people should realize:

1. Do not trust casualty figures provided by Hamas. 
    
2. If a Hamas guy with a rocket launcher on his back is pointing his AK-47 at an Israeli soldier and the Israeli kills him… it’s a “civilian casualty.”

 

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Intelligent people should realize:

1. Do not trust casualty figures provided by Hamas. 
    
2. If a Hamas guy with a rocket launcher on his back is pointing his AK-47 at an Israeli soldier and the Israeli kills him… it’s a “civilian casualty.”

 

It gets even grayer than that.  They'll report things like '70 percent of the casualties are women and children", without reporting that hamas uses women and  teens to carry ammo and weapons and other supplies to the front lines.

These are some of the worst people there are.

[Hodad]

44 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Intelligent people should realize:

1. Do not trust casualty figures provided by Hamas. 
    
2. If a Hamas guy with a rocket launcher on his back is pointing his AK-47 at an Israeli soldier and the Israeli kills him… it’s a “civilian casualty.”

 

Why would you automatically mistrust casualty figures provided by Gaza Health Ministry? Last time you asked why they should be believe, I showed you that they have historically been accurate and transparent with those figures. When secondary sources come in to validate numbers they have aligned very closely with the GHM reports. So if they have been trustworthy in the past, why would you mistrust them in this specific instance?

[WestCanMan]

36 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Why would you automatically mistrust casualty figures provided by Gaza Health Ministry? Last time you asked why they should be believe, I showed you that they have historically been accurate and transparent with those figures. When secondary sources come in to validate numbers they have aligned very closely with the GHM reports. So if they have been trustworthy in the past, why would you mistrust them in this specific instance?

"The Israelis did it and killed 500" became "probably our own rocket, and 470", now it's down to 100-300. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/19/politics/us-intelligence-assessment-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html

The Palestinians are terrorists who are pretending that they didn't kill and women and children on Oct 7th, and no one with half a brain believes terrorists anyways. It's like alwys believing rapists when they say "She wanted it."

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Hodad said:

Why would you automatically mistrust casualty figures provided by Gaza Health Ministry?

They are literally hamas.

And hamas is losing this fight far worse than they ever have in the past. They're desperate.  Lets not forget these people also said that hundreds died in a hospital attack which was their own doing and didn't kill nearly as many as they claimed, so we already know their numbers are suspect.

The real question is why would you trust them?

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

"The Israelis did it and killed 500" became "probably our own rocket, and 470", now it's down to 100-300. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/19/politics/us-intelligence-assessment-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html

The Palestinians are terrorists who are pretending that they didn't kill and women and children on Oct 7th, and no one with half a brain believes terrorists anyways. It's like alwys believing rapists when they say "She wanted it."

Revising an initial, large, round-number estimate by 30 is normal and reasonable. That's an adjustment of about half of one percent from the initial estimate. Which is impressive, particularly when it would have been in their best political interest revise more dramatically. (It's like you have the same misplaced sense of outrage from when you were inverting the adjustment, even though the adjustment numbers are perfectly reasonable now. You have updated your facts without updating your emotional response.)

And the second number you reference with a HUGE range is NOT rom the health ministry. That's not a revision. That's the US intelligence estimate without even being on the ground. (And here you are just being dishonest. You want to throw stones at the health ministry for a revision of 30 casualties, but seem content taking at have value an off-site estimate with a stated range 6.7x as large. Come on.)

So, again, do you have any real answer as to why we should suddenly mistrust an organization that has historically provided accurate and timely information of this type? If they've been consistently reliable before, what has changed? Just bigotry ramping up?

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Revising an initial, large, round-number estimate by 30 is normal and reasonable.

So what you're saying is that they're wrong sometimes.

How many other numbers did they round?

Your claim that they are beyond questioning is childish

[Rebound]

2 hours ago, Hodad said:

Why would you automatically mistrust casualty figures provided by Gaza Health Ministry? Last time you asked why they should be believe, I showed you that they have historically been accurate and transparent with those figures. When secondary sources come in to validate numbers they have aligned very closely with the GHM reports. So if they have been trustworthy in the past, why would you mistrust them in this specific instance?

Gaza Health Ministry is operated by Hamas. Also, again, ultra-obvious: ZERO military casualties ever reported. Kill 1,000 enemy soldiers, and it’s reported as 1,000 civilian deaths. Or 3,000 civilian deaths. Tell me, why do you trust the statistics of a designated terrorist organization which seized power of Gaza by force?

[Hodad]

45 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Gaza Health Ministry is operated by Hamas. Also, again, ultra-obvious: ZERO military casualties ever reported. Kill 1,000 enemy soldiers, and it’s reported as 1,000 civilian deaths. Or 3,000 civilian deaths. Tell me, why do you trust the statistics of a designated terrorist organization which seized power of Gaza by force?

I have answered that multiple times. They have earned credibility by being accurate and transparent in past reporting. With a demonstrated record of reliability one should need a positive reason to suddenly mistrust them, no? One shouldn't assume that something has changed without evidence, right? 

I mean, we're just talking logic. A source that is historically reliable should get the benefit of the doubt. Particularly when no one is currently in an informed position from which to contradict that source.

It's true that they don't distinguish or set aside the death toll of actual fighters, but that seems largely irrelevant. Credible estimates say there are about 25,000 Hamas fighters in Gaza, and 2+ million civilians. That's a bit over 1%. A rounding error. Books and artillery don't distinguish. If you'd like to say that 1 or 2 percent of the dead are fighters, knock yourself out. It still adds up to an unimaginable humanitarian toll. 

The IDF grades itself much more generously, claiming for every two civilians they have killed one militant. I don't think that's much to cheer about. They could probably improve that record if they stopped bombing civilians. 

[Rebound]

9 minutes ago, Hodad said:

I have answered that multiple times. They have earned credibility by being accurate and transparent in past reporting. With a demonstrated record of reliability one should need a positive reason to suddenly mistrust them, no? One shouldn't assume that something has changed without evidence, right? 

I mean, we're just talking logic. A source that is historically reliable should get the benefit of the doubt. Particularly when no one is currently in an informed position from which to contradict that source.

It's true that they don't distinguish or set aside the death toll of actual fighters, but that seems largely irrelevant. Credible estimates say there are about 25,000 Hamas fighters in Gaza, and 2+ million civilians. That's a bit over 1%. A rounding error. Books and artillery don't distinguish. If you'd like to say that 1 or 2 percent of the dead are fighters, knock yourself out. It still adds up to an unimaginable humanitarian toll. 

The IDF grades itself much more generously, claiming for every two civilians they have killed one militant. I don't think that's much to cheer about. They could probably improve that record if they stopped bombing civilians. 

What should Israel do that they aren’t already doing? Keeping Hamas in power is not an option.  

[Hodad]

9 minutes ago, Rebound said:

What should Israel do that they aren’t already doing? Keeping Hamas in power is not an option.  

In terms of prosecuting the war on Hamas? I'd suggest that the only way to do so legitimately is to shift more focus toward pursuing Hamas on the ground. They have an elite military and it's much more precise than bombardment. And while I understand that the cost in military lives would be higher, that has to be weighed against fundamental justice and international support. Collateral damage is supposed to mean that accidents happen and sometimes civilians are caught in the crossfire. In this case, even with Israel's 2:1 ratio, they have reversed the meaning of collateral damage. They are mostly killing civilian--and if they are lucky, some Hamas fighters are being killed as collateral damage. 

It's a famously complex situation and fraught with implications to global politics. I'm probably not equipped to armchair quarterback this. None of us are. But that's my best suggestion. And in the larger sense, I gave my suggestion for re-legitimizing their war in the other thread:

"What I actually think they should be do is to take advantage of the moment. End the blockade and the military action as leverage to force a two-state solution on their terms, force an election in new Palestine and give the Palestinian people a voice. Let them decide right now if they want their own state with a chance at real self governance, or whether they want to fight to the bitter end with Hamas as stateless refugees."

Right now, Israel is losing this fight in every way that matters. And they're doing it to themselves. In my view, they are being politically outsmarted and outmaneuvered. 

[Legato]

4 minutes ago, Hodad said:

 being politically outsmarted and outmaneuvered. 

Politics never won a gunfight.

[Hodad]

19 minutes ago, Legato said:

Politics never won a gunfight.

But it's rendered many gunfights irrelevant.

Unless their endgame is genocide, Israel's current strategy is going to create a lot more fighters than they kill. By rolling around in the mud of mass civilian casualties, Israel has surrendered the moral high ground. They are very publicly becoming everything Hamas has accused them of being. And after the world has watched Israel bomb thousands of non-combatants, thousands of regular men, women and children just trying to keep their families safe, it will be difficult to reclaim the mantle of a just cause. The next time Hamas 2.0 attacks, a MUCH larger portion of the global community will see Hamas 2.0 not as terrorists, but as freedom fighters against an oppressive apartheid state. 

[robosmith]

As has been said, every orphan created by Israeli mass bombing attacks, is one more soldier for Hamas to exploit.

[CdnFox]

10 minutes ago, robosmith said:

As has been said, every orphan created by Israeli mass bombing attacks, is one more soldier for Hamas to exploit.

So you're saying they should kill them all.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Hodad said:

They have an elite military and it's much more precise than bombardment. And while I understand that the cost in military lives would be higher, that has to be weighed against fundamental justice and international support.

You would be sending your soldiers to their slaughter, against a foe that not only is better prepared, but can better hide for surprise ambushes and pick apart the Israel military. 

I don't understand how you don't approach this with a form of air support, or bombing campaign.

They leveled a lot of the city, making building to building fighting easier.

Israel must prioritize the lives of their soldiers.

[Rebound]

8 hours ago, Hodad said:

In terms of prosecuting the war on Hamas? I'd suggest that the only way to do so legitimately is to shift more focus toward pursuing Hamas on the ground. They have an elite military and it's much more precise than bombardment. And while I understand that the cost in military lives would be higher, that has to be weighed against fundamental justice and international support. Collateral damage is supposed to mean that accidents happen and sometimes civilians are caught in the crossfire. In this case, even with Israel's 2:1 ratio, they have reversed the meaning of collateral damage. They are mostly killing civilian--and if they are lucky, some Hamas fighters are being killed as collateral damage. 

It's a famously complex situation and fraught with implications to global politics. I'm probably not equipped to armchair quarterback this. None of us are. But that's my best suggestion. And in the larger sense, I gave my suggestion for re-legitimizing their war in the other thread:

"What I actually think they should be do is to take advantage of the moment. End the blockade and the military action as leverage to force a two-state solution on their terms, force an election in new Palestine and give the Palestinian people a voice. Let them decide right now if they want their own state with a chance at real self governance, or whether they want to fight to the bitter end with Hamas as stateless refugees."

Right now, Israel is losing this fight in every way that matters. And they're doing it to themselves. In my view, they are being politically outsmarted and outmaneuvered. 

So more Jewish deaths is  better and more humane than more Arab deaths?  
 

Jews have mothers, too. These soldiers are just kids who are drafted.  Why are their lives worth less? 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Rebound

[Deluge]

16 hours ago, Hodad said:

Why would you automatically mistrust casualty figures provided by Gaza Health Ministry? Last time you asked why they should be believe, I showed you that they have historically been accurate and transparent with those figures. When secondary sources come in to validate numbers they have aligned very closely with the GHM reports. So if they have been trustworthy in the past, why would you mistrust them in this specific instance?

Who told you that the GHM has been historically accurate? 

[WestCanMan]

21 hours ago, Deluge said:

Leftoids would have people think that Israel is just out for a good slaughter, but the intelligent and informed understand that Israel is doing what it must, but with fair warning. 

"We are still raping hostages, but you have to stop attacking us." 

[Deluge]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

"We are still raping hostages, but you have to stop attacking us." 

Yet another reason these barbarians need to be incarcerated or simply wiped out. 

[WestCanMan]

14 hours ago, Hodad said:

Revising an initial, large, round-number estimate by 30 is normal and reasonable. That's an adjustment of about half of one percent from the initial estimate. Which is impressive, particularly when it would have been in their best political interest revise more dramatically. (It's like you have the same misplaced sense of outrage from when you were inverting the adjustment, even though the adjustment numbers are perfectly reasonable now. You have updated your facts without updating your emotional response.)

And the second number you reference with a HUGE range is NOT rom the health ministry. That's not a revision. That's the US intelligence estimate without even being on the ground. (And here you are just being dishonest. You want to throw stones at the health ministry for a revision of 30 casualties, but seem content taking at have value an off-site estimate with a stated range 6.7x as large. Come on.)

 

470 isn't confirmed any more than 100-300 is, and why are you taking the word of people who raped and burned women and children to death? 

Any normal human completely disregards the testimony of people who are known to lie to the extent that Hamas does. 

Quote

So, again, do you have any real answer as to why we should suddenly mistrust an organization that has historically provided accurate and timely information of this type?

They are genocidal liars, and they don't historically provide accurate info about anything. It's weird to trust someone like that.

Quote

If they've been consistently reliable before, what has changed? Just bigotry ramping up?

They are consistently reliable in their attempts to foment hatred and to incite a genocide. Yeah, I hate people like that. 

[Nationalist]

15 hours ago, Hodad said:

Revising an initial, large, round-number estimate by 30 is normal and reasonable. That's an adjustment of about half of one percent from the initial estimate. Which is impressive, particularly when it would have been in their best political interest revise more dramatically. (It's like you have the same misplaced sense of outrage from when you were inverting the adjustment, even though the adjustment numbers are perfectly reasonable now. You have updated your facts without updating your emotional response.)

And the second number you reference with a HUGE range is NOT rom the health ministry. That's not a revision. That's the US intelligence estimate without even being on the ground. (And here you are just being dishonest. You want to throw stones at the health ministry for a revision of 30 casualties, but seem content taking at have value an off-site estimate with a stated range 6.7x as large. Come on.)

So, again, do you have any real answer as to why we should suddenly mistrust an organization that has historically provided accurate and timely information of this type? If they've been consistently reliable before, what has changed? Just bigotry ramping up?

You Hodad...win the Groovy Guy of the Day award for this...bit of nonsense.

Congarats.

[Nationalist]

12 hours ago, Hodad said:

But it's rendered many gunfights irrelevant.

Unless their endgame is genocide, Israel's current strategy is going to create a lot more fighters than they kill. By rolling around in the mud of mass civilian casualties, Israel has surrendered the moral high ground. They are very publicly becoming everything Hamas has accused them of being. And after the world has watched Israel bomb thousands of non-combatants, thousands of regular men, women and children just trying to keep their families safe, it will be difficult to reclaim the mantle of a just cause. The next time Hamas 2.0 attacks, a MUCH larger portion of the global community will see Hamas 2.0 not as terrorists, but as freedom fighters against an oppressive apartheid state. 

CORRECTION: The Palestinians living in Gaza, ELECTED Hamas. They are ALL combatants.

Genocide is the elimination of a genome. Hence the root of the word "genocide". Israel could bomb Gaza to Hell completely, and still not qualify for "genocide". Your empty accusation is inaccurate and limp.