Should Hamas support rallies in Canada be stopped?

[WestCanMan]

57 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Of course but you have to deal with the public you have... educating them to think deeply is a decades or centuries long project.

You're bemoaning the fact that not enough people 'think deeply' now? ?

C'mon MH, have you ever heard a MSM narrative that you didn't defend like it was your firstborn? 

Did you 'think deeply' about what it meant for the PM to: call the unvaxxed "racists and misogynists", force people to vax, strip away the rights of the unvaxed, force people to carry around a Gesundheitspass? 

Unless CNN, Hillary, Biden, CBC and Trudeau were right every single time that they opened their mouths, you failed to 'think deeply enough' many times, because all you do here is back them up.   

[WestCanMan]

23 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Can't say if it will stick but been starting to teach my two kids to be critical to a fault of what they read. Believing something... no matter which side writes it, is for simpletons.

I actually tell my kids things that aren't true from time to time, when I know that they can probably catch me on it, just to make sure that they'll think for themselves and call me out. 

I think it's empowering for kids to get one over on their old man sometimes, and it teaches them to question anything that anyone says. 

It's not for some people, I'm sure that there are a lot of people who feel like the most important thing in the world is for their kids to obey their parents without question, but I'm not gonna be here forever and I'd hate to think of them as drones who just watch CBC/CTV and mange, mange, mange.

[impartialobserver]

3 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I actually tell my kids things that aren't true from time to time, when I know that they can probably catch me on it, just to make sure that they'll think for themselves and call me out. 

I think it's empowering for kids to get one over on their old man sometimes, and it teaches them to question anything that anyone says. 

It's not for some people, I'm sure that there are a lot of people who feel like the most important thing in the world is for their kids to obey their parents without question, but I'm not gonna be here forever and I'd hate to think of them as drones who just watch CBC/CTV and mange, mange, mange.

most people take a side and then do the following. Praise/support 100% of what their side says and then reject/criticize 100% of what the other side says. This comes with this built in assumption that those on their side are universally good, honest, not corrupt, altruistic, objective, and so on. The other side is universally deceitful, immoral, evil, and so on. I would like to think that I can teach them that everyone is flawed no matter the label. 

[QuebecOverCanada]

3 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

most people take a side and then do the following. Praise/support 100% of what their side says and then reject/criticize 100% of what the other side says. This comes with this built in assumption that those on their side are universally good, honest, not corrupt, altruistic, objective, and so on. The other side is universally deceitful, immoral, evil, and so on. I would like to think that I can teach them that everyone is flawed no matter the label. 

And that's why we must stand against any kind of censorship.

If people can't resort to telling what they think, what they desire as a society, other means will soon ensue to make sure the message will be understood. And it's not going to be pretty.

[I am Groot]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:17 PM, CdnFox said:

Sure they know.  Ever since isreal was born it's been forced to take over more and more of the territory set aside for the palestinians

This ends when there IS no more palestinian land in isreal and the palestinians are left homeless and are scattered to other countries.

Today gaza - tomorrow west bank - then peace.

 

Israel has been surrounded for generations by a sea of hostile religious fanatics desperate to kill them all. Every Israeli grows up and lives with the knowledge that everywhere around them, and even in countries that don't touch their borders like Iran or Saudi Arabia or Yemen, there are tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people who desperately want them dead. And all around their borders are people trying every day to get in, to get through or over or under or around their fences and borders just to kill a Jew or two in hopes they'll then go to heaven and be given 72 virgins to molest for all eternity.  Any Jew will do! Soldier or civilian. Very old or very young. Man or woman, boy or girl or baby. 

We saw the reality of that last weekend. 

Anyone looking at a map of the region can see that this country looks odd. That's because it was carved up and the borders drawn along religious lines. But that means the West Bank carves a huge hole into 'Israel' and thus makes it extremely difficult to defend from a large-scale attack. The West Bank, by the way, was taken over by Jordan shortly after the Arabs lost the first war they launched against Israel. It was not just absorbed but annexed formally. So barring some calamitous intervention, there was never going to be a Palestinian state. Jordan lost that land, just as Egypt lost the Gaza Strip in the 1967 War. They could have gotten them back by signing a peace treaty but they refused to do so. And Israel wasn't about to give the West Bank back and let Jordan station tanks and artillery at the border with them, and then maybe attack again. Why would they? Why should they?

Give it to the Palestinians? Why? The first thing the Palestinians would do, in both the West Bank and Gaza, is import as much heavy weaponry as they could so they could then threaten or outright attack Israel. And it's not like this Palestinian state would be a land of freedom and democracy. It would either be a totalitarian state like the West Bank or a brutal Islamic State (most likely) like Iran.

[I am Groot]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:42 PM, Moonbox said:

Since when have you cared so much about what's been officially declared?  ?

Terrorist isn't worth much as a word anymore.  It's been bandied around by leaders all over the world to basically label anyone that opposes them as "the bad people".  It's a slogan.  The Turks call the Kurds and the Armenians terrorists.  The Indians call the Sikhs terrorists.  The Kremlin complains about Ukrainian terrorist attacks on their infrastructure.  It's just a word meant to make you angry now.  

Yes, the word gets overused by authoritarian regimes. Just as the word 'racist' gets overused by the Left in Canada. Just as words like 'hate' get so overused by the Left, and "Islamophobe" and "homophobe."

Does that mean those words should never be used and that nothing the Left uses to describe with those words really IS those things? No. It doesn't. The ignorance and rapacious need for ever more emotional words to use to condemn people who disagree with them doesn't erase that the words in their original meaning stood for something.

And so does terrorist. If you spend hours eagerly and happily slaughtering and raping unarmed, innocent people, dancers, farmers, and toddlers in a daycare, then 'terrorist' is the least of the words you qualify for under almost any definition of the term.

[I am Groot]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:48 PM, suds said:

It would have to be one hell of a bribe. For example, why would Egypt (or Jordan) be interested in inheriting Israel's problems? And would Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza readily give up on the idea of a Palestinian state? The idea makes sense but is it feasible?

I honestly don't know. Jordan certainly wanted the West Bank once before. It annexed it and formerly mad it a part of its territory. The UN, the West, and Gulf countries would have to pledge massive aid to help infrastructure in both the West Bank and Jordan, at a bare minimum. And there'd have to be some security guarantees for Jordan to ensure the Palestinians don't launch another abortive coup attempt like they did the last time. But it's the only way out I can see. On its own or in concert with Gaza, the West Bank would not be economically viable. And outside parties would be extremely reluctant to invest anything in it.

Edited October 13, 2023 by I am Groot

[QuebecOverCanada]

All options are on the table, but a durable peace could come through a destruction, occupation and total reconstruction of Palestine by the Israelis.

It is not going to be easy, thousands of Israelis would die. I said earlier that Gaza could be the new Stalingrad or Bakhmut. Mark my words. It will be. More Palestinians would die, but it wouldn't be a fun walk in the park for the Israelis to occupy Gaza. It could also cause a conflict of enormous proportions, but realistically, the American domination would mean the pro-Palestinian countries would look like Syria after the war. Israel and the West would lose trillions; Arab countries would do a 1973-style export embargo, until they can't handle the embargo.

When the Allied nations attacked Germany and Japan, they had to raze many cities to the ground. But they had a Marshall plan after, which made the Germans and Japanese pacifists after WWII. A similar plan can be in place for Palestine. We need to make sure Palestinians live decently and have means to trade with Israelis and vice-versa. But it means de-nazification efforts. Boots on the ground at all times for decades.

Edited October 13, 2023 by QuebecOverCanada

[I am Groot]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:49 PM, QuebecOverCanada said:

France decided that pro-Palestinian protests were prohibited by law.

Imagine my shock. The evening that law is adopted, a pro-Palestinian protest happened.

You can't ban ideas.

Right wingers who are pro Israel are wrong about silencing those Pro-Palestinians, just like the Left wingers are dead wrong about the censorship they promote for almost any opinion they are against.

If you're cheering on Hamas then you're cheering on terrorism. If you're chanting worse like "Gas the Jews' you're committing hate speech. I'm not sure how easily such people could be prosecuted but I know what WOULD be easily, and that's to stop giving money to groups that organize such public events, and to remove their charitable status.

But I sincerely doubt this government, as desperate as it is for votes from the Muslim community, will take any action.

[I am Groot]

23 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

What we could predict though is that if Israel decides to occupy Gaza, it would be a blood bath on every side. It would be another Bakhmut times 10 or even a Stalingrad.

Oh, hardly. There's only two million of them, half of which are under eighteen and they apparently lost almost two thousand fighters already. How many trained fighters do you think they have left against a quarter million heavily armed and well-trained Israelis?

[QuebecOverCanada]

1 minute ago, I am Groot said:

If you're cheering on Hamas then you're cheering on terrorism. If you're chanting worse like "Gas the Jews' you're committing hate speech. I'm not sure how easily such people could be prosecuted but I know what WOULD be easily, and that's to stop giving money to groups that organize such public events, and to remove their charitable status.

But I sincerely doubt this government, as desperate as it is for votes from the Muslim community, will take any action.

This kind of rhetoric will not give way to any moderation. If any pro-Palestinian expression is already amalgamated to Isis or Hamas, it's radicalizing the other side, also you are dehumanizing them in a way as you put them in a box they could not belong.

[WestCanMan]

6 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

most people take a side and then do the following. Praise/support 100% of what their side says and then reject/criticize 100% of what the other side says.

It's only recently that every topic under the sun came with a side. People in my generation weren't divided politically about things like beer, syrup, weather, medicine, genders, whether or not employees could wear "f the world" T-shirts at work, etc, etc. 

If we're being honest, I think there's 'a side' where people are encouraged to say bizarre things just to prove how extremely polarized they acrually are. Does anyone really believe that "Abortion should be allowed after a woman is dilated", "There are 51 genders", "Men can get pregnant", "People shouldn't be allowed to say 'mom' anymore", "It was a mostly peaceful but fiery protest"...?

Quote

This comes with this built in assumption that those on their side are universally good, honest, not corrupt, altruistic, objective, and so on.

In most instances the binary thinkers that you're referring to are almost always unable to discuss the merits of an argument, and just go right to "Seeing as you vote for  _________ your opinion is meaningless because you're a ____ist."

Try to pin those guys down to a factual debate is like pulling hens' teeth. You can put 2 links and 4 graphs from their favourite sources in a post and they'll still say "You're a conspiracist".

Quote

The other side is universally deceitful, immoral, evil, and so on. I would like to think that I can teach them that everyone is flawed no matter the label. 

It sounds like you're talking about Israel. No, abortion. Nope, Covid. No, it's definitely racist border walls or the number of genders. Election cheating in 2016, 2020? Final answer: Russian collusion - the mother of all evils. 

[QuebecOverCanada]

1 minute ago, I am Groot said:

Oh, hardly. There's only two million of them, half of which are under eighteen and they apparently lost almost two thousand fighters already. How many trained fighters do you think they have left against a quarter million heavily armed and well-trained Israelis?

They literally destroyed the most advanced tanks in the World in their first wave. All Hamas wants is a ground invasion, which they will get, trust me. But it will be bloody. Hamas have at least 25 000 troops, inside a civilian population it holds hostage.

[WestCanMan]

19 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

And that's why we must stand against any kind of censorship.

If people can't resort to telling what they think,

I love the fact that people were allowed to go on social media or walk in front of their city hall and say "I love terrorism" after people were burned alive and babies had their heads chopped off. 

Canadians needed to know that those people walk among us. 

[QuebecOverCanada]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

I love the fact that people were allowed to go on social media or walk in front of their city hall and say "I love terrorism" after people were burned alive and babies had their heads chopped off. 

Canadians needed to know that those people walk among us. 

Look, I didn't see that happen, do you have links?

But it is a display of pure hatred and dishonoring themselves... without any interaction needed.

I'm all for free speech. Cockroaches flee when the light comes, just as public opinions goes away when they see that kind of extremism.

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well this is charming:

 

York University Student Unions praise Hamas terrorists’ actions as “necessary” and condemn “so-called Canada” and “so-called” Israel as fundamentally illegitimate “settler-colonial states”.

 

This board of this group appears to consist entirely of 'new Canadians'. Which once again brings to the fore the thought that we should have been a lot pickier in who we allowed into our country and should start screening newcomers very thoroughly.

https://www.yfs.ca/board

Edited October 13, 2023 by I am Groot

[impartialobserver]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

It's only recently that every topic under the sun came with a side. People in my generation weren't divided politically about things like beer, syrup, weather, medicine, genders, whether or not employees could wear "f the world" T-shirts at work, etc, etc. 

If we're being honest, I think there's 'a side' where people are encouraged to say bizarre things just to prove how extremely polarized they acrually are. Does anyone really believe that "Abortion should be allowed after a woman is dilated", "There are 51 genders", "Men can get pregnant", "People shouldn't be allowed to say 'mom' anymore", "It was a mostly peaceful but fiery protest"...?

In most instances the binary thinkers that you're referring to are almost always unable to discuss the merits of an argument, and just go right to "Seeing as you vote for  _________ your opinion is meaningless because you're a ____ist."

Try to pin those guys down to a factual debate is like pulling hens' teeth. You can put 2 links and 4 graphs from their favourite sources in a post and they'll still say "You're a conspiracist".

It sounds like you're talking about Israel. No, abortion. Nope, Covid. No, it's definitely racist border walls or the number of genders. Election cheating in 2016, 2020? Final answer: Russian collusion - the mother of all evils. 

Not talking about Israel.. more general than that. All humans are flawed.. dishonest, hypocritical, have an agenda, etc. To read an article by your side and assume that they can't possibly be dishonest just shows a lack of knowledge concerning human nature. Everybody cherry picks to some degree.. they kind of have to. There are sometimes thousands/millions of information sources and so you can't possibly show them all. Also, no one can be impartial and not give a damn. 

Before you blast away.. my moniker comes from when I was on the now defunct Amazon politics forum and kept getting banned. I was running out of names to use and found this in an amazon book review and decided to use it. Since then, I just use it as my default on chat forums. 

[WestCanMan]

1 minute ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Look, I didn't see that happen, do you have links?

But it is a display of pure hatred and dishonoring themselves... without any interaction needed.

I'm all for free speech. Cockroaches flee when the light comes, just as public opinions goes away when they see that kind of extremism.

What didn't happen, the violence or the people saying "I love terrorism"? 

The violence absolutely happened, but no one actually says the words "I love terrorism". They say things like "This was justified" or "both sides do it" (they know that they're lying), which basically mean "I love terrorism".

I dunno if cockroaches flee when they're in the CBC/CTV protected class. 

If a white college kid said "I don't like gays" in a tweet ten years ago they'll be cancelled, but if a muslim woman says "Burn them alive" at a rally tomorrow, will she be cancelled by the MSM? I doubt it.

Kathy Griffin wasn't even cancelled by the MSM, they tried to protect her. 

[I am Groot]

13 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

This kind of rhetoric will not give way to any moderation. If any pro-Palestinian expression is already amalgamated to Isis or Hamas, it's radicalizing the other side, also you are dehumanizing them in a way as you put them in a box they could not belong.

What's the difference between pro-Palestinian and pro-Hamas? These organizations called for the demonstrations and people came out onto the streets to 'cough cough' support Palestine before Israel had even really responded to the slaughter of their innocent civilians. And from their own words on the callouts, the organizations made it clear these were demonstrations of support and celebration for what Hamas had done.

[WestCanMan]

1 minute ago, impartialobserver said:

Not talking about Israel.. more general than that. All humans are flawed.. dishonest, hypocritical, have an agenda, etc. To read an article by your side and assume that they can't possibly be dishonest just shows a lack of knowledge concerning human nature. Everybody cherry picks to some degree.. they kind of have to. There are sometimes thousands/millions of information sources and so you can't possibly show them all. Also, no one can be impartial and not give a damn. 

Before you blast away.. my moniker comes from when I was on the now defunct Amazon politics forum and kept getting banned. I was running out of names to use and found this in an amazon book review and decided to use it. Since then, I just use it as my default on chat forums. 

I was actually just making the point that every topic fits the bill from your post lol.

TBH, it's really bizarre that there are still people who think that no multi-vaxed people have died of covid, or that the FBI proved that Trump colluded with Russia. Some folks are just desperate to believe what they've been told.

Hell, some people still believed Jussie after it came out that he was caught on camera rehearsing the attack prior to it happening, and after his co-conspirators had already confessed... It was appalling and disgusting. 

I almost wanna give up on people altogether. My definition of "human" looks a lot like my definition of 'swine'.

[QuebecOverCanada]

3 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

What's the difference between pro-Palestinian and pro-Hamas?

What do you think it could be?

8 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

What didn't happen, the violence or the people saying "I love terrorism"? 

The violence absolutely happened, but no one actually says the words "I love terrorism". They say things like "This was justified" or "both sides do it" (they know that they're lying), which basically mean "I love terrorism".

I dunno if cockroaches flee when they're in the CBC/CTV protected class. 

If a white college kid said "I don't like gays" in a tweet ten years ago they'll be cancelled, but if a muslim woman says "Burn them alive" at a rally tomorrow, will she be cancelled by the MSM? I doubt it.

Kathy Griffin wasn't even cancelled by the MSM, they tried to protect her. 

Didn't you say there was a sign saying "I love terrorism" in a Palestinian protest?

May you just send the link to that?

By the way, I think Kathy Griffin had many contracts cancelled and lost a lot of money for what she did about Trump.

[impartialobserver]

4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I was actually just making the point that every topic fits the bill from your post lol.

TBH, it's really bizarre that there are still people who think that no multi-vaxed people have died of covid, or that the FBI proved that Trump colluded with Russia. Some folks are just desperate to believe what they've been told.

Hell, some people still believed Jussie after it came out that he was caught on camera rehearsing the attack prior to it happening, and after his co-conspirators had already confessed... It was appalling and disgusting. 

I almost wanna give up on people altogether. My definition of "human" looks a lot like my definition of 'swine'.

or that they believe it just because they can. They do not necessarily trust their information source but they have to have something to hang on to. If there was no Russian Collusion myth.. their dislike of Trump would be just because. That is not sufficient in order to help them win an argument. I do not like Trump and did not vote for him.. however, unlike others I do not believe in the Russian Collusion myth nor do I think that he orchestrated anything on January 6. 

 

As a matter of practice, I do not react and form opinions upon hearing about a story for the first time. I give it a few weeks and therefore try (sometimes not successful) to read multiple sources/views of something. I know that most people do not operate that way. They read, react, and do so with this odd sense of authority. All it takes to be an expert on a topic is to read one headline, one tweet, or gasp! one article. 

[QuebecOverCanada]

8 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

As a matter of practice, I do not react and form opinions upon hearing about a story for the first time.

We all do as Humans actually. I do not believe that part, respectfully, because I think we can all be subjects of propaganda.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

You're bemoaning the fact that not enough people 'think deeply' now? ?

C'mon MH, have you ever heard a MSM narrative that you didn't defend like it was your firstborn? 

Did you 'think deeply' about what it meant for the PM to: call the unvaxxed "racists and misogynists", force people to vax, strip away the rights of the unvaxed, force people to carry around a Gesundheitspass? 

Unless CNN, Hillary, Biden, CBC and Trudeau were right every single time that they opened their mouths, you failed to 'think deeply enough' many times, because all you do here is back them up.   

Everyone knows mike is shallow. Like many on the left, they hide behind that facade of 'deep thought' and proclaim themselves the only people who 'really understand or consider' issues - but the fact is it's a bit of a farce.  I guess it's easier to say "snif no one understands me' than actually address issues.

[QuebecOverCanada]

35 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Everyone knows mike is shallow

I think he is quite knowledgeable and has quite a judgment on many issues.

Not everyone thinks like you.