Hamas Attacks Israel

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

You keep saying that and you keep being told why it would not have been possible.

Well, people still think Israel is possible. Time will tell I guess, but I suspect it's as doomed as the original. Israel is a nation that's probably the most dependant on a functioning global economy. If it collapses they'll quickly run out of allies capable of supporting them and that'll be it.

You'd think Israelis would have more concern over what the future holds considering how long and cruel history has been.

 

 

[CdnFox]

56 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Well, people still think Israel is possible. Time will tell I guess, but I suspect it's as doomed as the original. Israel is a nation that's probably the most dependant on a functioning global economy. If it collapses they'll quickly run out of allies capable of supporting them and that'll be it

 

well i think you'd be hard pressed to argue that it's not possible - it's existed for 80 plus years now. Which isn't to say it's guaranteed either for sure but it does seem at least possible.

Quote

You'd think Israelis would have more concern over what the future holds considering how long and cruel history has been.

Frankly i think that of pretty much everyone in the middle east.  It would be one of those rare occasions where i don't seem to be correct.

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 2/16/2024 at 10:53 AM, carepov said:

My take on history:

 

The Jews are the closest thing to an "indigenous peoples" to this land.  It is very ironic that they are labeled as "colonizers".

 

1947: the UN Plan was to create 2 states, the Arabs rejected the plan, started a war and lost.  When you lose a war, you lose land and people need to move.  This is not fair, but the sad truth for millions of the least fortunate people.  ~700,000 Palestinians became refugees, around the same time ~900,000 Jews were forced to move out of other Arab countries.  During this time there were literally 10's of millions of refugees around the world (eg: Germany, India, Pakistan...)

 

Between 1949 and 1967, the West Bank was controlled by Jordan and Gaza by Egypt.  Why was there no Palestinian state declared sometime in these 18 years?  There were no "occupied territories".  The PLO was founded in 1964, which part of Palestine did they want to "liberate"?

 

More wars in 1967 and 1973.  Again the Arabs tried to drive the Jews into the sea and lost.

 

Peace was offered in the 1993 Oslo accords, rejected by Palestinian leadership.  As well as in 2000 at Camp David.  Other offers for peace have been refused by Palestinians.

 

In 2005 all settlers were were withdrawn from Gaza, Hamas was elected, there was a war between Hamas and the PLO.  Hamas's constitution states that they want to destroy Israel and kill or drive all Jews

out.  Their actions are in-line with this.  

 

This history, like all history is filled with evil people and acts.  There is no possible way to completely reconcile the injustices of the past.  We could compare Arab atrocities against Jews, and vice versa, but what's the point...

 

***

 

There are now 14 million people on this land (Israel, West Bank  and Gaza) 7 million Jews, 7 million Palestinians.  Perhaps with a few exceptions, all have the right to live where they are now.  All people should live in peace and security.  This is what is stated in the Israeli constitution.

 

10/7: As I learned about the horrific atrocities and saw Palestinians celebrating, I told myself, "well at least now the western world will realize how evil Hamas is and will support Israel in eliminating them."   I was so wrong and I still can't figure it out:

 

Israel, warts and all, are defending their people (note: this includes 2-million non-Jewish Israelis):

-As I mentioned, their constitution is one of peace

-As a country, they have the power to kill/displace all Palestinians, yet they restrain

-Practically every young Israeli goes through military service and walks around with a machine gun, yet they restrain

-Build bomb shelters and the Iron Dome to defend their civilians

-In Israel, there are 2 million Arab-Israelis with full citizenship and rights living in peace and security

-Israel is among the best countries in the world for women's rights

-Ditto for other minority rights

-Ditto for free speech, religion and other civil rights

 

Hamas, in contrast:

-Openly calls for the destruction of Israel in their constitution

-Rapes women and celebrates this and violence

-Kidnaps babies and seniors

-Promises to repeat the attacks of 10/7

-Rewards people and their families for killing Jews

-Fires rockets into Israel

-Uses civilians as human shields

-Kills homosexuals

-Women's rights?

-Minority rights?

-Free speech and democracy?

 

I'm sure glad that it's Israel with the dominant military, not the other way around.

 

For peace its' simple: Hamas must be defeated and the hostages returned.  The support of Hamas is prolonging the suffering of innocent Palestinians.

Starting in 1947 is way too late. You have to cover events from 1900 at the latest. That’s when migrants born in Europe began to flood into Palestine without any consultation with the majority population there. Imagine if 20 million Chinese arrived in Canada over the few decades and then they said, ‘let’s be reasonable, we only want BC and the Prairies for our new country’. Would you be keen to compromise and agree? If you say they weren’t indigenous and that’s important to you then imagine if a world-dominant China gave the same land as a new country to First Nations people in 2060. Fair? 
 

 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

Leon Panetta has some harsh words for Israel:

Quote

Leon Panetta, former defense secretary for the Obama administration, said it’s “not surprising” that Israel admitted mistakes after an airstrike killed aid workers earlier this week, because in his experience, “the Israelis usually fire and then ask questions.”

https://www.aol.com/israelis-usually-fire-then-ask-155158452.html

Israel investigated the WCK killings because nearly all the victims were Westerners. Does anyone believe it does the same for Palestinians killed under similar circumstances. 

As I understand it, the two main objectives of this invasion were to bring all the hostages safely home and to eliminate Hamas. Objective one is already only partially successful and I don’t see how objective two can be achieved by Israel alone. Many of the children watching Gaza being levelled and their relatives slaughtered will be highly vulnerable to Hamas’s message. 

The pictures from Gaza are also having a woeful effect on Biden voters in swing states. Words alone are not going to save Joe:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/04/wisconsin-democrats-biden-stop-gaza-war

Israel would be far better off not sending either Netanyahu or Dermer back to Washington again. They are poison for their side’s interests. 

Edited April 7 by SpankyMcFarland

[carepov]

On 4/6/2024 at 7:55 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Starting in 1947 is way too late. You have to cover events from 1900 at the latest. That’s when migrants born in Europe began to flood into Palestine without any consultation with the majority population there. 

By today's standards no this is not fair to some of the people living in Palestine 1900 to 1947.

By the standards of 1900 to 1947 the immigration of Jews was much more fair than the typical "population transfers" of tens of millions of people around the world.

Don't you think that it was only fair that the Jews established their own country on their ancestral land?

Which Palestinians made the better choice:

a) those who more or less cooperated with the Jews, accepted the Israeli state and whose 2 million descendants live peacefully and enjoy the benefits of being Israeli citizens?

b) Those that did not recognize Israel and whose descendants make up the other 5 million living in Palestine? 

On 4/6/2024 at 7:55 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Imagine if 20 million Chinese arrived in Canada over the few decades and then they said, ‘let’s be reasonable, we only want BC and the Prairies for our new country’. Would you be keen to compromise and agree? If you say they weren’t indigenous and that’s important to you then imagine if a world-dominant China gave the same land as a new country to First Nations people in 2060. Fair? 

These kinds of comparisons between Israel and Canada (and China?) are ridiculous.  Here's another one: what if is there was a constant barrage of rockets from Oka into Montreal, then a 10/7 type of attach occurred?