'Utterly repulsive': Canadians divided on Justin Trudeau's $650M aid to Ukraine

[Perspektiv]

23 minutes ago, PIK said:

Russia is getting beat.

I don't think Russia cares on casualty count, or a couple kilometers lost, in the almost entirely of the land that it has grabbed.

They only care in what land they have grabbed, as an insurance policy for an otherwise failed attempt to overtake an entire country, and plug a puppet regime in its place. This is a strong hand, as they will refuse to leave empty handed.

To me, as long as Russia occupies the land that they do, one can spin it like they please, but nobody is "winning" this war.

This is survival at best.

Both parties surviving suits Putin just fine, as it essentially is a beleaguered Ukraine not being admitted to NATO, and weakening by the minute.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't think Russia cares on casualty count, or a couple kilometers lost, in the almost entirely of the land that it has grabbed.

They only care in what land they have grabbed, as an insurance policy for an otherwise failed attempt to overtake an entire country, and plug a puppet regime in its place. This is a strong hand, as they will refuse to leave empty handed.

To me, as long as Russia occupies the land that they do, one can spin it like they please, but nobody is "winning" this war.

This is survival at best.

Both parties surviving suits Putin just fine, as it essentially is a beleaguered Ukraine not being admitted to NATO, and weakening by the minute.

I think that by most objective measures they're losing.

They had a goal - they are not going to come close to meeting that goal even if they don't lose another inch.  They've lost a lot of the land they gained, so there's not a lot mitigating it either.

They have lost an insane amount of gear. That's very hard for them to replace right now. Which means they are seriously weakened militarily. That is  a very very serious loss for them. The loss of their ships is expecially bad.

They had intended to create a buffer between them and nato and prevent Ukraine being used by nato for intel work etc.  Now - safe bet that one way or another nato is going to arm ukraine to the teeth and instead of being more secure the russians will have a very real threat on their border which wasn't the case before.

The russian economy has taken a hit. Both in terms of lost business but also there's a hell of a lot of young working age men who aren't coming home or if they do are coming home disabled and shell shocked.

The russians have lost a lot of prestiege and influence around the world.  Who wants to be a russian satellite when they can't even deal with ukraine and western gear is kicking their butt so bad?

This has led to new nato memebers which is the LAST thing russia wanted.

Economically, politically and militarily russia is significantly weaker than it was, and has not gained anything of significant value having even lost access to the nuclear reactors they were hoping to use for power.

I don't think any rational independent observer could claim ANY of this is suiting putin well at all.  You MIGHT argue they're both losing and it's a  case of MAD, but there is no doubt this is going HORRIBLY for the russians.

 

[Perspektiv]

23 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I don't think any rational independent observer could claim ANY of this is suiting putin well at all. 

He is poker facing when stating all is fine. 

He has lost it all, when you consider what he could have kept, without the invasion. 

However, both Ukraine and Russia have lost a lot. But none as much as Russia.

But to say Russia could be beaten on the battleground, I feel would not be possible.

But if you see loss in what one has left on the table overall, then yes. You have a point.

Russia is that riches to rags type of person, with nothing to lose at this point.

 

[myata]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

This is what you call leverage. Negotiations 101.

I see your point. Might makes right. You'll fight him if you think you're stronger and otherwise, lay down and negotiate. Point clear. And your mind will do the rest.

Except with some fights you never know, until you take it on. Same Russia was way bigger than now, relative to Europe; the conclusion to WWI looked even easier than to you now (because you always judge the fight by the size, even what you hear not see or tested it - cov.. no, caution often does that). And then, it cracked. And it'll crack again, sure, it's only a matter of time. And ones like you, what will happen to their fears, and forecasts? Just garbage of history. No good way forward.

Just think of it this way: if people like you took the upper hand in the West of early 1940s: nothing to do with us; negotiate with Hitler; let's see what happens next; what world would we be living in now? How would it look like? Anyone of clear thought and memory would see it right away.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

He is poker facing when stating all is fine. 

He has lost it all, when you consider what he could have kept, without the invasion. 

However, both Ukraine and Russia have lost a lot. But none as much as Russia.

But to say Russia could be beaten on the battleground, I feel would not be possible.

But if you see loss in what one has left on the table overall, then yes. You have a point.

Russia is that riches to rags type of person, with nothing to lose at this point.

 

Fair points, all.

I don't  know about 'winning' or 'losing' on the battle field - i guess that depends on how you define victory. is it possible ukraine will take back the territory it lost during the invasion?  Maybe?  Crimea as well? I doubt it.  I think they'll run out of time before other countries get sick of supplying them endlessly with weapons. That' can't go on forever, especially if there is a world wide economic slowdown which many are predicting.

Honestly i suspect they have to end of summer next year and then financial and military support will start getting thin. At least thin enough that sustained offensive operations are challenging.  I could be wrong, but we'll see.

 

[Perspektiv]

2 hours ago, myata said:

lay down and negotiate. Point clear. And your mind will do

Its not that at all. You put up a fight, and there isn't anything more that you could do.

The reality is your funding could stop as early as early next year.

What then? Putin is betting on it. If the US cuts their funding, how strong will other allies be, in their support of Ukraine?

Throw rocks? Die off and at least you fought until then?

Or gain leverage, and negotiate.

One is logical, one is suicidal.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

The reality is your funding could stop as early as early next year.

We can create our reality. No reality is given for free and for granted. Two alternative realities were within the horizon of possibilities last century. People of courage and will chose one, and set it in.

Folks like you cannot get it because they always eat what they are fed and go to sleep when told. They fight when they are sure of winning and lie down, call it "negotiating" if you like otherwise. Nothing new here, they were here always yawn. Good night.

[Perspektiv]

6 hours ago, myata said:

Folks like you

Whats your end game for Ukraine?

Fight until funds run out, to show courage?

Courage was already shown when they chose to fight and refuse to fold.

Sooner or later, logic will have to prevail in figuring how to end this.

[myata]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Sooner or later, logic will have to prevail in figuring how to end this.

What logic? "Negotiate with Hitler" logic? Nothing changed in the logic of standing up to brutal, fascist thugs since, it's only in your panicking mind you are grasping for some non-existent explanations and straws.

I asked you a simple, clear question: if people with your mindset were deciding the fate of the world in say, the 1940, what world would we be living now? You don't have an answer or wouldn't say it aloud. So you are down to little tricks and deceptions to calm the mind disturbed by that obvious split between the assumed position of lofty goodness and the absence of will and resolve to act. And what else?

"Negotiate", was it the word? Is that what we call it that when someone pulls a gun on you and demands all that you have, what defines you? A normal five year old knows the word. You couldn't say it because it would break the view of the world that you struggle to keep in contrast to the stark reality.

What world will your children live in if you let brutal thugs like Putin, Un and Iran run free and wild in it? No answer. Wouldn't answer. Avoiding answering by any trick. Your little hope now is that the fight will end for any of the straw reasons - is it because it shows you what you could do, could be and cannot be? Just wondering. But it's nothing new really - I'm sure there were loads by a ton of those who cried and called to negotiate with Hitler in 1940 when all looked like one couldn't win against such a monstrous and brutal war machine.

In evolution there are no final answers. Every generation has to face challenges and come up with answers that will define them, and the future. The answer given four generations back gave the world a few decades of relative peace. But today you can certainly come up with a different one. Wanna know where it'll take you: further ahead or in the dark and violent past?

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, myata said:

What logic? "Negotiate with Hitler" logic? Nothing changed in the logic of standing up to brutal, fascist thugs since, it's only in your panicking mind you are grasping for some non-existent explanations and straws.

I asked you a simple, clear question: if people with your mindset were deciding the fate of the world in say, the 1940, what world would we be living now? You don't have an answer or wouldn't say it aloud. So you are down to little tricks and deceptions to calm the mind disturbed by that obvious split between the assumed position of lofty goodness and the absence of will and resolve to act. And what else?

"Negotiate", was it the word? Is that what we call it that when someone pulls a gun on you and demands all that you have, what defines you? A normal five year old knows the word. You couldn't say it because it would break the view of the world that you struggle to keep in contrast to the stark reality.

What world will your children live in if you let brutal thugs like Putin, Un and Iran run free and wild in it? No answer. Wouldn't answer. Avoiding answering by any trick. Your little hope now is that the fight will end for any of the straw reasons - is it because it shows you what you could do, could be and cannot be? Just wondering. But it's nothing new really - I'm sure there were loads by a ton of those who cried and called to negotiate with Hitler in 1940 when all looked like one couldn't win against such a monstrous and brutal war machine.

In evolution there are no final answers. Every generation has to face challenges and come up with answers that will define them, and the future. The answer given four generations back gave the world a few decades of relative peace. But today you can certainly come up with a different one. Wanna know where it'll take you: further ahead or in the dark and violent past?

Nice Reductio ad Nauseum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

 

[myata]

On 10/5/2023 at 5:35 PM, OftenWrong said:

But we live in a time when absurdity is unchallenged

OK, standing up to Hitlers is "absurdity", unchallenged. Letting Hitlers run amok has to be the new wisdom. Sanity test: which direction is mentality of these Canadians evolving to? Is it future, sure?

[myata]

39 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Nice Reductio ad Nauseum

Blindness needs no wikipedias. Hitler is as Hitler does. It's up to one's intelligence and ethics to convince themselves to not see; apologize and trivialize hitlers. Of course, far from the first, except this time around there will be no "naivity" and "first time" excuses.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Blindness needs no wikipedias. Hitler is as Hitler does. It's up to one's intelligence and ethics to convince themselves to not see; apologize and trivialize hitlers. Of course, far from the first, except this time around there will be no "naivity" and "first time" excuses.

It's also not being very sensitive to conflate everyone to the level of monstrosity that occurred during Hitler. These absurd reductions should be offensive to any Jew.

 

[myata]

53 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

to conflate everyone

Putin is like, "everyone". Keep going. It'll sure take you somewhere.

[Perspektiv]

2 hours ago, myata said:

your panicking mind

There clearly will not be a resolution on the battlefield. This is a stalemate. Hard to panic when both sides are ground down to a virtual halt.

Its eventually going to be more of a: "how much longer that we want to keep funding this", where cracks will start to form in the wallets of those sustaining Ukraine. There is no question in Ukraine's heart to fight. That dramatically changes, when the tools they need stop being made available.

Logic, is understanding that people pouring billions into this conflict to help Ukraine, will eventually tire of the "wait and see" game they are playing with few major results on the battlefield.

They are being sold the notion of Ukraine winning. The logic of seeing that isn't feasible.

They will hold up, and survive which is all that they can do. 

Only thing they can hope for, is this destroying Russia's economy for generations to come. Victory, not so much.

4 hours ago, myata said:

What world will your children live in if you let brutal thugs like Putin, Un and Iran run free and wild in it?

Jong Un, can lob missiles over Japan and South Korea with virtual impunity. What are you talking about?

They are ramping up their nuclear capabilities as well talk, and have directly threatened the US.

Sanctions? What else can the US do? They have the worst humans rights record on the planet. This will never stop.

This hasn't stopped them, nor will it stop Russia. You can only squeeze so hard, before you create a humanitarian disaster.

So they can breathe, which is more than enough for someone that brutal.

4 hours ago, myata said:

In evolution there are no final answers.

The earth is round.

You make no logical sense.

I found two. I didn't even touch up on gender.

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

It's also not being very sensitive to conflate everyone to the level of monstrosity that occurred during Hitler.

The beauty of playing politics. You distract with the histrionic flailing and condescending tone, to take away that one doesn't have a better point to bring to the table.

[myata]

6 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

There clearly will not be a resolution on the battlefield. This is a stalemate. Hard to panic when both sides are ground down to a virtual halt.

So that's how you would have decided in 1940-41. No way around that, no. And the future, follows.

7 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

The beauty of playing politics. You distract with the histrionic flailing

Putin barging into a sovereign neighbor European country, just like, exactly like Hitler in 1940 is only "politics" and "flailing". OK. Keep going, this line of thought will take you right to the dismal end. And I couldn't care a broken dime. Because nothing you're saying is new. Can't stand up to this. Just survive anyhow. "Negotiate" with a bandit by giving him all he wants. All of that is in the past. It not about Ukraine silly: it's in what direction of the arrow of time you are going. Got it, finally?

[Perspektiv]

43 minutes ago, myata said:

So that's how you would have

All wars have different reasonings for them. This war, and this war only will have to be ended in negotiations.

44 minutes ago, myata said:

"Negotiate" with a bandit by giving him all he wants.

Right now, Ukraine has the funding of the world. Eventually, those funding this war will tire. People will vote for voices that wish to end this conflict. 

Time won't be on Ukraine's side. 

Putin has already annexed part of this country. What happened to Putin? 

Exactly.

You talking about a bandit barging in has already been done, and successfully.

If he perceives weak leadership, he will pounce. He bet correctly last time.

This time, he rattles the nuclear Sabre, and US leaders are afraid to send aircraft to Ukraine early on, when they desperately needed it.

Putin smelled fear, but miscalculated.

I would be willing to bet you a grand this war ends in negotiations.

[myata]

17 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

This war, and this war only

Because you said so. Keep rambling. But you have nothing to say.

17 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Eventually, those funding this war will tire.

That's what you desire somewhere deep because you want to cheer for brutal dictator thugs. Like you can, right? And it's guaranteed that nothing bad will happen? But your saying it is only your petty wishing and nothing more. There are people with resolve and courage who will stand up to the thug and defeat him. And you cannot even dare to think it's possible. This is the only statement you can make, factually.

17 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

What happened to Putin? 

This is what is happening: he's burning his equipment and cannon fodder at a lightning speed and still could not hold. At some point his cannon fodder will get tired and will turn their rifles only because it's more likely to survive that way and nothing to lose. And that will be the end of Putin. And it's not just me saying that but it's already happened, based on experience. And his "annexations" that nobody (except maybe folk like you see above why) takes seriously will land him in a tribunal or a bunker just like before. And you will watch it mumbling something dumb and useless. This is what's happening and what is going to happen. Get yourself ready.

But sure. A thief or robber "annexed" your wallet so it's their now and you have to "negotiate". This how you understand the law like centuries of democracy never happened.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by myata

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, myata said:

That's what you desire somewhere deep because you want to cheer for brutal dictator thugs.

I don't cheer for anything other than peace.

Putting words in my mouth, won't change that.

1 hour ago, myata said:

There are people with resolve and courage

 If you honestly think Ukraine stands a chance without foreign aid, you can't keep questioning my IQ.

1 hour ago, myata said:

A thief or robber "annexed" your wallet so it's their now and you have to "negotiate".

What the f*** are you talking about?

[myata]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

What the f*** are you talking about?

A thief or robber "annexed" your wallet so it's their now and you have to "negotiate".

Aha, that's entirely different, right? Go figure.

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, myata said:

Putin is like, "everyone". Keep going. It'll sure take you somewhere.

No, Reductio ad Hitlerum simply means people who like to invoke Hitler in an argument usually don't know what they're talking about. It's a cheap tactic, and weak. It also shows a lack of understanding of history.

Don't quit your day job.

12 minutes ago, myata said:

A thief or robber "annexed" your wallet so it's their now and you have to "negotiate".

Aha, that's entirely different, right? Go figure.

Not much different to the cheerleaders of war. Soon you'll see how much morality costs. Don't polish your halo yet...

 

[myata]

7 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Not much different to the cheerleaders of

No, we were talking about you, not some abstract cheerleaders. It's you who chose to be blind to almost exact, step in step repetition of a brutal aggression by a brutal totalitarian dictator citing some meaningless generalities. It's you who has to be happy with thugs and bandits annexing their possessions and always ready to "negotiate". It was all about you all along, and you didn't even notice. How ironic.

[herbie]

Justin Trudeau's $650M aid to Ukraine

being a trillionaire he sent it from his own pocket?

HTG you think PP would support Ukraine to any lesser extent? Some of you have gotta make even nonpartisan issues into anti-Trudeau headings. go get a job with the National Post FFS

Edited October 7, 2023 by herbie

[OftenWrong]

9 minutes ago, myata said:

No, we were talking about you, not some abstract cheerleaders. It's you who chose to be blind to almost exact, step in step repetition of a brutal aggression by a brutal totalitarian dictator citing some meaningless generalities. It's you who has to be happy with thugs and bandits annexing their possessions and always ready to "negotiate". It was all about you all along, and you didn't even notice. How ironic.

Thread's not about me, but the facts. So grow up little fella.

And facts are that US and EU like this war. Whether they started it or not could be debated, although it would not be the first time that a war between two countries was provoked by a third country. That's old school Machiavellian. That book was written 500 years ago.

Get with the times.

Ukrainians approved of their economic relations with Russia, and rejected the idea of free trade with the EU in the landslide victory of Yanukovych's party in 2012. This election gave him the mandate to reject the EU deal. Two years later he was ousted during violent protests and unrest. The protest movement was directly funded by the US, who gave 5 billion to promote "better democracy" in the Ukraine after Yanukovych announced he would reject the WEF sponsored globalist free trade package.

This left Russia and the Ukraine as the only countries who did not sign on to partnership with the WEF.

You do the math.

[myata]

7 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Whether they started it or not could be debated,

WTF? I have no interest in debating your private fantasies. Seek urgent psychiatric help. I wouldn't delay. That would be all from me.

Edited October 7, 2023 by myata