Medical assistance in dying is no solution

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Where did I say or suggest doctors and hospital do not save lives all the time?

Of course they do.  I simply said sometimes, if a patient is brain dead and there is no hope for recovery, hospitals decide to disconnect life support systems because there is nothing else they can do for the patient.

I don't believe God has it in for someone who is seriously injured in an accident.  

If God doesn't want them dead when a medic saves them, how do you know God wants them alive when a medic kills them?

[blackbird]

8 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Why not? 

That's not how God operates.

"Psalm 46:1 tells us: “He is our refuge and our strength, and a help in time of trouble.” In spite of this reassurance our Christian brothers and sisters die in accidents, or as a result of illness, and many of us have known suffering ourselves.

The fact is although God is always with us and standing by to aid us nowhere in Scripture are we promised a life free of pain, suffering and tragedy. In fact the Apostle Peter tells us: "Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you” (I Peter 4:12).

During Job’s time, there was a misunderstanding expressed by Job’s friends. They assumed Job somehow deserved what was happening to him as a result of his sins. Jesus Christ also encountered this line of thought when two tragic situations occurred in Judea. In one situation, a number of people from Galilee were killed and their blood mingled with the sacrifices by Pontius Pilate. In another, others were killed when the Tower of Siloam collapsed (Luke 13:1-5).

Christ’s point regarding these two incidents was that these people were no worse sinners than anyone else, but that this fate—death—would come to all men and that we must redeem the time and repent while we still can.

Apart from time and chance happening to everyone and God deciding to intervene in certain circumstances, there is also the issue that we often suffer the unavoidable consequences of our own unwise behaviour. A modern day example of this would be—you can’t smoke for 50 years and then question why God didn’t protect you from lung cancer. There are consequences to our choices and we ultimately reap what we sow (Galatians 6:7). This is a biblical principle.

Satan is the god of this age (II Corinthians 4:4). As such, most of the pain, suffering and tragedy that we see in the world around us today is a direct result of his influence and human beings succumbing to that influence. (You can read more about Satan and his evil demons in the next article in this issue: Is There An Evil Spirit World?)

Reading on from 1 Peter 4:12, quoted at the beginning of this article where apostle Peter tells us to expect hardship and trials, we are told how we react to our sufferings is what counts (I Peter 4:13-17).

We don’t always understand why God does what He does—why some live and others do not, but we can be assured of the fulfillment of God’s promise that we will see our loved ones again in the wonderful Kingdom of God. (See our free brochure: What Happens After Death?)"  

Why does God allow Christians to die in accidents? - United Church of God Australia (ucg.org.au)

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by blackbird

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

Does the Church support saving the life of someone who wishes it, using life support, even if it's obvious God wants them dead?

What kind of bizarro church is that?

What planet are you on?  

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

What planet are you on?  

One that formed over 4.6 billion years ago out of a mixture of dust and gas around the young sun. It grew larger thanks to countless collisions between dust particles, asteroids, and other growing planets, including one last giant impact that threw enough rock, gas, and dust into space to form the moon.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by bcsapper

[blackbird]

50 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

If God doesn't want them dead when a medic saves them, how do you know God wants them alive when a medic kills them?

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

 

The caption didn't appear with the picture, so I don't know what your God was saying.

Thanks for trying, though.

[blackbird]

6 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

The caption didn't appear with the picture, so I don't know what your God was saying.

Thanks for trying, though.

Were you asking a serious question?  

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

If God doesn't want them dead when a medic saves them, how do you know God wants them alive when a medic kills them?

First a medic doesn't kill people unless he is practicing MAID.

Accidents and serious illness are not caused by God.

I explained that in a posting about an hour or so ago to Aristides.

I repeat the answer:

"Psalm 46:1 tells us: “He is our refuge and our strength, and a help in time of trouble.” In spite of this reassurance our Christian brothers and sisters die in accidents, or as a result of illness, and many of us have known suffering ourselves.

The fact is although God is always with us and standing by to aid us nowhere in Scripture are we promised a life free of pain, suffering and tragedy. In fact the Apostle Peter tells us: "Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you” (I Peter 4:12).

During Job’s time, there was a misunderstanding expressed by Job’s friends. They assumed Job somehow deserved what was happening to him as a result of his sins. Jesus Christ also encountered this line of thought when two tragic situations occurred in Judea. In one situation, a number of people from Galilee were killed and their blood mingled with the sacrifices by Pontius Pilate. In another, others were killed when the Tower of Siloam collapsed (Luke 13:1-5).

Christ’s point regarding these two incidents was that these people were no worse sinners than anyone else, but that this fate—death—would come to all men and that we must redeem the time and repent while we still can.

Apart from time and chance happening to everyone and God deciding to intervene in certain circumstances, there is also the issue that we often suffer the unavoidable consequences of our own unwise behaviour. A modern day example of this would be—you can’t smoke for 50 years and then question why God didn’t protect you from lung cancer. There are consequences to our choices and we ultimately reap what we sow (Galatians 6:7). This is a biblical principle.

Satan is the god of this age (II Corinthians 4:4). As such, most of the pain, suffering and tragedy that we see in the world around us today is a direct result of his influence and human beings succumbing to that influence. (You can read more about Satan and his evil demons in the next article in this issue: Is There An Evil Spirit World?)

Reading on from 1 Peter 4:12, quoted at the beginning of this article where apostle Peter tells us to expect hardship and trials, we are told how we react to our sufferings is what counts (I Peter 4:13-17).

We don’t always understand why God does what He does—why some live and others do not, but we can be assured of the fulfillment of God’s promise that we will see our loved ones again in the wonderful Kingdom of God. (See our free brochure: What Happens After Death?)"  

Why does God allow Christians to die in accidents? - United Church of God Australia (ucg.org.au)

[Aristides]

My wife was fit as hell, lived a healthy life, never smoked and drank very little and really wanted to live. Brain cancer killed her. God's will right. You can shove that god where the sun don't shine. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Were you asking a serious question?  

Of course.  It seems to me that you and certain others are very selective when it comes to what your God wants and doesn't want.

 

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

First a medic doesn't kill people unless he is practicing MAID.

Obviously, that's what I meant.

 

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Accidents and serious illness are not caused by God.

See my second sentence, above.

As to the rest, it doesn't answer my question.  Personally, I think you guys have been making it up as you went along, mainly to suit yourselves.

[blackbird]

29 minutes ago, Aristides said:

My wife was fit as hell, lived a healthy life, never smoked and drank very little and really wanted to live. Brain cancer killed her. God's will right. You can shove that god where the sun don't shine. 

I posted an article to you an hour ago explaining that God is not the cause of sickness.  It appears you did not bother to read it.  Or perhaps you are not capable of understanding such articles.  Or you are blinded by animosity.  You are spouting nonsense again.  You falsely blame God for something that happened.  Perhaps you have no knowledge of God.  That is why you should be studying the Bible and commentaries on different subjects.  You will one day regret if you don't.

Edited October 3, 2023 by blackbird

[blackbird]

10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

As to the rest, it doesn't answer my question. 

OK, I accept I didn't answer your question or not properly or misinterpreted it.  Please ask me the question again, in a clear manner.  I will try to answer it honestly if it comes across as a sincere question.

[blackbird]

This is why it is so important to have some knowledge about God and the Bible.  Without that knowledge, you are just stumbling along in the dark without any clear idea of what life and it's purpose is all about.

If you believe this:

No maker of the universe, no ultimate purpose of our existence, then you would believe mankind is just a blob of chemicals and everything is just an accident.  Life is then purposeless and when something bad happens, you feel bitter and resentful.  Life is just a downhill slide until death which you believe is oblivion.  That would explain why one would believe in MAID.  No purpose, no meaning.  Just end it all with a clean, easy exit.

Edited October 3, 2023 by blackbird

[Aristides]

7 hours ago, blackbird said:

 

What you don't accept is the fact only God decides when life ends.  You don't get to play God.  If you do you are acting on behalf of Satan and will pay the price unless you repent and believe the gospel.

Well then, obviously your god decided her life was to end by a nasty disease with more suffering than she ever deserved. 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, blackbird said:

OK, I accept I didn't answer your question or not properly or misinterpreted it.  Please ask me the question again, in a clear manner.  I will try to answer it honestly if it comes across as a sincere question.

I asked this:

40 minutes ago, blackbird said:

If God doesn't want them dead when a medic saves them, how do you know God wants them alive when a medic kills them?

But the question isn't really about God.  It's about religious people.  Why do you think your God is okay with people taking every measure possible to keep someone alive, measures that change over time due to technological advances so at some point in the past the person would have certainly died, so God's will is certainly being affected by man, and yet is not okay with the same will being affected in the opposite direction. 

Why do you want someone to suffer more than they have to?

 

Actually, forget it.  I just saw your answer to Aristides.  You and your God can fück off as far as I'm concerned.

Edited October 3, 2023 by bcsapper

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

I asked this:

But the question isn't really about God.  It's about religious people.  Why do you think your God is okay with people taking every measure possible to keep someone alive, measures that change over time due to technological advances so at some point in the past the person would have certainly died, so God's will is certainly being affected by man, and yet is not okay with the same will being affected in the opposite direction. 

Why do you want someone to suffer more than they have to?

I will try to answer these question, but I admit I am not an expert.  There are things that we do not understand.  Man only understands what God has revealed to him in His written word, the Bible.

My understanding is very limited.  I am not a Bible scholar so some of your question may be beyond my ability to answer, especially off the top of my head.  Some might be able to be answered after some study.

First, medical advances over the past century have given mankind a much longer life span.  Even though many people get cancer, heart problems etc., they are able to live much longer.

God considers life as sacred.  He created man in his own image.  What exactly that means I am not 100% sure.  I don't think it means physically in his image, but perhaps in the sense we have intelligence (or should have) and the power of reason, which animals and plants do not have.  We also have a spirit and a soul which is another subject.  God is a spirit and is present everywhere although he is not made of the material universe.  He is separate from it.  Many heathen religions believe in a god which is part of the material universe.

So because God considers human life sacred or of infinite value, he has given mankind commandments on how man is to live.  One of those commandments is thou shalt not kill.  There are only certain exceptions to this such as by lawful authorities in defence of one's life, defence of one's country, and execution for murder as part of the justice system by lawful authorities.  

Therefore the medical system does not have any authority to end someone's life by using any active measure to cause death.  This has been part of the hypocratic oath of some medical associations I believe but has changed over the years and different associations ahve different oaths.

Now because God considers human life sacred, he does not condone anyone taking it upon themselves to end it.  If however, in the medical profession, a patient is in such a condition that they cannot be revived or saved, the doctors have the prerogative of disconnecting the extraordinary life saving equipment, but that would be only in rare circumstances when a patient cannot be saved and after consultation with the family.  That is not considered as actively ending a person's life.  That is a necessary part of the health care system because there will always be patients in such a predicament that their lives cannot be saved.  

I am not sure I answered your question(s).  If not, please clarify again.

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

I will try to answer these question, but I admit I am not an expert.  There are things that we do not understand.  Man only understands what God has revealed to him in His written word, the Bible.

My understanding is very limited.  I am not a Bible scholar so some of your question may be beyond my ability to answer, especially off the top of my head.  Some might be able to be answered after some study.

First, medical advances over the past century have given mankind a much longer life span.  Even though many people get cancer, heart problems etc., they are able to live much longer.

God considers life as sacred.  He created man in his own image.  What exactly that means I am not 100% sure.  I don't think it means physically in his image, but perhaps in the sense we have intelligence (or should have) and the power of reason, which animals and plants do not have.  We also have a spirit and a soul which is another subject.  God is a spirit and is present everywhere although he is not made of the material universe.  He is separate from it.  Many heathen religions believe in a god which is part of the material universe.

So because God considers human life sacred or of infinite value, he has given mankind commandments on how man is to live.  One of those commandments is thou shalt not kill.  There are only certain exceptions to this such as by lawful authorities in defence of one's life, defence of one's country, and execution for murder as part of the justice system by lawful authorities.  

Therefore the medical system does not have any authority to end someone's life by using any active measure to cause death.  This has been part of the hypocratic oath of some medical associations I believe but has changed over the years and different associations ahve different oaths.

Now because God considers human life sacred, he does not condone anyone taking it upon themselves to end it.  If however, in the medical profession, a patient is in such a condition that they cannot be revived or saved, the doctors have the prerogative of disconnecting the extraordinary life saving equipment, but that would be only in rare circumstances when a patient cannot be saved and after consultation with the family.  That is not considered as actively ending a person's life.  That is a necessary part of the health care system because there will always be patients in such a predicament that their lives cannot be saved.  

I am not sure I answered your question(s).  If not, please clarify again.

 

 

No, you obviously didn't get my edit.  I'm no longer interested in your views.

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

No, you obviously didn't get my edit.  I'm no longer interested in your views.

That's fine. I am not trying to force you to believe what I do.  Good evening sir.

[blackbird]

34 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Well then, obviously your god decided her life was to end by a nasty disease with more suffering than she ever deserved. 

I am sorry you lost your wife that way.  Tragic.  But I would not blame God.  God does not do that.

[OftenWrong]

8 hours ago, Aristides said:

My wife was fit as hell, lived a healthy life, never smoked and drank very little and really wanted to live. Brain cancer killed her. God's will right. You can shove that god where the sun don't shine. 

Rubbish. If there's a god, why should it manage your life? Are you a puppet on a string?

[Zeitgeist]

11 hours ago, Aristides said:

My wife was fit as hell, lived a healthy life, never smoked and drank very little and really wanted to live. Brain cancer killed her. God's will right. You can shove that god where the sun don't shine. 

Read the book, Why do bad things happen to good people?  Let’s put religion aside, since you’re an atheist. Do you think life has inherent value and is better than death?  I’m not saying it’s always worth putting someone through procedures and treatments to keep them alive.  It’s an entirely different move to kill someone using a lethal procedure from helping someone to stay alive or to keep them from feeling pain. I see now that this is personal for you because of the loss of your wife.  I don’t judge you. I think most people have weaknesses or simply can only handle so much before they break.  Those who don’t break are written about as martyrs or saints or heroes because of their tremendous strength.  Our state no longer elevates such people.  Instead it caves into weakness.  It’s a theme in Canada in recent years, but it has support, just like legal hard drug use and unlimited abortion on demand.  It’s becoming a country of throwing in the towel.  

Edited October 3, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Boges]

13 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You don’t know the theology on euthanasia. The Church doesn’t support active euthanasia, killing somebody.  It accepts passive euthanasia, letting someone die naturally without life support where this is the wish of the dying.  

You understand the quibbling nature of this though don't you? 

Drugs to sedate someone for the rest of their natural life. . . Good! 

Drugs to end someone's suffering . . . Mortal Sin! 

 

[Boges]

17 hours ago, blackbird said:

As I said we have powerful drugs to eliminate pain.  The pain claim is just another tool the so-called die with dignity groups use.

So you're cool with those drugs being used to prolong a life that's going to end imminently anyway, but not to end their suffering completely. 

You understand that using opiates to control pain is not natural either.

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, Boges said:

So you're cool with those drugs being used to prolong a life that's going to end imminently anyway, but not to end their suffering completely. 

You understand that using opiates to control pain is not natural either.

Do you understand the difference between using drugs for their proper and intended use (healthcare for people in extreme pain) and dangerous recreational use up to overdosing or poisoning to kill someone?

11 minutes ago, Boges said:

You understand the quibbling nature of this though don't you? 

Drugs to sedate someone for the rest of their natural life. . . Good! 

Drugs to end someone's suffering . . . Mortal Sin! 

 

Yes I see a significant difference between using drugs to help someone manage real pain versus killing someone.  This used to be obvious.  

Edited October 3, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Boges]

43 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes I see a significant difference between using drugs to help someone manage real pain versus killing someone.  This used to be obvious.  

Giving someone a lethal dose of Morphine to ease a person's pain is not some new practice. 

https://www.mypcnow.org/fast-fact/morphine-and-hastened-death/

As an aside, Google thinks want to kill myself looking for cites on this issue ?

Edited October 3, 2023 by Boges

[Boges]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Those who don’t break are written about as martyrs or saints or heroes because of their tremendous strength.  Our state no longer elevates such people.  Instead it caves into weakness.  It’s a theme in Canada in recent years, but it has support, just like legal hard drug use and unlimited abortion on demand.  It’s becoming a country of throwing in the towel.  

That's absurd to embrace suffering to simply embrace the sanctity of life until the very last minute. 

I notice no one commented about my example of killing ones self quickly as opposed to, say being burned alive. Are these dogmatic principals used for that as well?