Those Damned Illegals

[NYLefty]

2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

That's right, ignore millions of people breaking the law, including businesses.  Just let human trafficking happen too, and the drug trafficking.  Stop enforcing the law you meanies!

You mean like gun legislation that would prevent sick people from buying an AR-15 to murder school children is just too complicated. Seems to be an American problem 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

That's right, ignore millions of people breaking the law, including businesses.  Just let human trafficking happen too, and the drug trafficking.  Stop enforcing the law you meanies!

Whats funny to me, is those who are happy with the high influx of illegal immigrants, absolutely hate having these people within their own states or jurisdictions in high volumes.

They realize that past a certain amount, their existing systems are too overwhelmed to handle this.

It then exacerbates a homelessness problem. The affordability problem.

You can't possibly run a country efficiently, without having a strong border.

I don't understand how this is controversial.

In Canada we went from 4000 illegal entries in 2021, to 40 000 in 2022. 

Even our government recognized that our systems were far too overburdened to accept such an additional number, after allowing and aiming for 500k legal immigrants annually.

They did the sensible thing, which was close and enforce the one border loophole that was so porous, that it created the issue to begin with.

Sure  it's impossible to fully stop the problem, but a lack of border control in my opinion, is highly irresponsible policy making at play here.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Perspektiv

[NYLefty]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Whats funny to me, is those who are happy with the high influx of illegal immigrants, absolutely hate having these people within their own states or jurisdictions in high volumes.

You can't possibly run a country efficiently, without having a strong border.

 

 

We have illegal immigrants in blue states and they work their asses off, they pay state and federal taxes. Your ignorance on basic economics is typical of brain washed Reich wingnuts. Explain how people who work like hell and contribute to our economies and local employers work force are a bad thing.Small and medium businesses couldn't survive without them. Employers paying cash is a thing of the past, and doesn't happen anymore.

You say you can't run a country like this, RUBBISH. You couldn't run a country without them.

 

[Rebound]

California has a $2 billion agriculture industry which has always existed because of immigrant labor.  
 

The crops grown in California’s Central Valley aren’t like most; they are nearly all hand-picked: Grapes, asparagus, artichokes, almonds, cherries, oranges, strawberries, and so forth. It’s not like grains or corn which can be machine harvested. It takes an army of very hard working laborers to do.  We used to have programs which allowed them to migrate from Mexico and back, but this ended long ago.  

[NYLefty]

2 hours ago, Rebound said:

California has a $2 billion agriculture industry which has always existed because of immigrant labor.  
 

The crops grown in California’s Central Valley aren’t like most; they are nearly all hand-picked: Grapes, asparagus, artichokes, almonds, cherries, oranges, strawberries, and so forth. It’s not like grains or corn which can be machine harvested. It takes an army of very hard working laborers to do.  We used to have programs which allowed them to migrate from Mexico and back, but this ended long ago.  

The programs (HB-1 Work Visas) are still in force, always have been and have to be. Green Giant, Birdseye, Tyson Foods, the meat packing industry including poultry, beef and , pork, wouldn't survive without them. We wouldn't only fall into a major depression but America would starve without illegals.

So all this idle right wing gibberish about open borders and caravans is all just hogwash to keep the Nazi Republican base ginned up.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, NYLefty said:

We have illegal immigrants in blue states and they work their asses off, they pay state and federal taxes.

Am pointing to the high influx of them, which is a separate issue.

One is simply part of having a border with a country. The issue am eluding to, is more based on the partial loss of control of your border.

This, is what is overwhelming some systems not built to handle that type of volume on top of the legal immigrants who are entering.

There is no doubt in my mind, that someone there illegally, would work the hardest, for the least pay--they literally have no choice.

There is also a reality, that a high percentage of illegal immigrants, will heavily rely on welfare systems such as food stamps, and other forms of financial aid. You call this reality racism, whereas a logical person would call this, "we should have better control of our borders", in having more of a say of who is allowed in.

Sorry, but the concept of immigration isn't about giving you a free stay on the backs of tax payers. Most immigrants are there to work and provide for their families, but you can't ignore the numbers. Immigration is based on what you can do for a country. Which is why entry is so difficult, as prerequisites must be met.

I comparatively mentioned Canada in having 4000 illegal immigrants in 2021. No issue. Not even news worthy.

40 000 flooding in, becomes a massive problem. Provinces like Quebec didn't have the resources to deal with this.

Ignoring this and pointing to racism, defies logic. Its playing politics, vs looking into a solution.

3 hours ago, NYLefty said:

Explain how people who work like hell and contribute to our economies and local employers work force are a bad thing

They aren't. There is no explanation needed.

You would need to explain how a high percentage of these people requiring food stamps and or some other forms of welfare services, is a good thing.

When flooding into specific states only, to boot. 

3 hours ago, NYLefty said:

Small and medium businesses couldn't survive without them. 

You have a faulty system. The status quo just isn't cutting it.

Just because many benefit, you can't ignore those who are punished by it.

Your logic is you standing by a burning house, and still pointing to it being sellable, due to the acreage.

[CdnFox]

On 9/5/2023 at 5:08 AM, NYLefty said:

As some here may know I'm someone who's been involved in the construction industry my whole career. I'm retired now but still travel to job sites of family members and friends and use my experience to give guidance, a consultant of sorts who doesn't get paid.

I've visited close to a dozen job sites in the month of August and every single crew of every single outfit has Illegals doing the work white men could never do.

Latinos laying pavers in the blazing sun not standing erect the entire day. Latinos setting steel handling blazing hot I-Beams at a brand new strip mall. Latinos on their knees laying thousands upon thousands of ceramic tile never getting up to take a break.

Twelve hour days most of them, never complaining showing up every single day. And despite all the Reich Wing hokum, these illegals receive paychecks and pay state and federal TAXES.

Yep these illegals are doing the jobs that you comfy white boys could never do. They keep our economy HUMMING!!!

So in the opinion of the left - the economy is built on exploitation of what amounts to slave labour?

Ahhh - the socialist dream in action!   

[Moonlight Graham]

15 hours ago, NYLefty said:

You mean like gun legislation that would prevent sick people from buying an AR-15 to murder school children is just too complicated. Seems to be an American problem 

I support such legislation.  But whataboutism is not a valid argument, it's a red herring logical fallacy.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

11 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Whats funny to me, is those who are happy with the high influx of illegal immigrants, absolutely hate having these people within their own states or jurisdictions in high volumes.

They realize that past a certain amount, their existing systems are too overwhelmed to handle this.

It then exacerbates a homelessness problem. The affordability problem.

You can't possibly run a country efficiently, without having a strong border.

I don't understand how this is controversial.

In Canada we went from 4000 illegal entries in 2021, to 40 000 in 2022. 

Even our government recognized that our systems were far too overburdened to accept such an additional number, after allowing and aiming for 500k legal immigrants annually.

They did the sensible thing, which was close and enforce the one border loophole that was so porous, that it created the issue to begin with.

Sure  it's impossible to fully stop the problem, but a lack of border control in my opinion, is highly irresponsible policy making at play here.

Even if the US, or even Canada, wants an extremely high immigration rate, that's fine if the democratically elected representatives choose this policy.  But it needs to be legal, and on the books.

A foreign resident does not get to decide for a sovereign country whether they should be allowed into a country or not, or which laws they should be requires to follow or not.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

A foreign resident does not get to decide for a sovereign country whether they should be allowed into a country or not, or which laws they should be requires to follow or not.

I agree. I fail to understand how this is controversial.

How do you expect others to respect your sovereignty,  when you don't even enforce it at the border?

No wonder Putin saw the US as weak, and felt the timing was best to pounce on what he wanted.

[robosmith]

On 9/6/2023 at 5:33 AM, Rebound said:

California has a $2 billion agriculture industry which has always existed because of immigrant labor.  
 

The crops grown in California’s Central Valley aren’t like most; they are nearly all hand-picked: Grapes, asparagus, artichokes, almonds, cherries, oranges, strawberries, and so forth. It’s not like grains or corn which can be machine harvested. It takes an army of very hard working laborers to do.  We used to have programs which allowed them to migrate from Mexico and back, but this ended long ago.  

What's weird is that blocking immigration causes INFLATION that those who don't like immigrants complain about.

IF they'd get out there and pick those crops, we could block immigrants without causing INFLATION, but they don't want to do the work that immigrants do.

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, robosmith said:

What's weird is that blocking immigration causes INFLATION that those who don't like immigrants complain about.

IF they'd get out there and pick those crops, we could block immigrants without causing INFLATION, but they don't want to do the work that immigrants do.

So you mean we're exploiting desperate people to do work that nobody else would do. So - you're kind of a pro-slavery kind of guy?

[Nationalist]

41 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

So you mean we're exploiting desperate people to do work that nobody else would do. So - you're kind of a pro-slavery kind of guy?

Oh am I ever interested in how Tweenkie-poo is gonna try to slime his way out of this one.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Nationalist

[impartialobserver]

This is not exactly slavery. First, there are being paid. Second, they have choice. They can quit the job and go elsewhere. Just because the choice is not optimal does not mean it does not exist. When I would help out family friends in Eastern Idaho.. the illegals would tell me about how they would go from one grower to another depending on wages, distance to the job site, and so on. 

[Rebound]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So you mean we're exploiting desperate people to do work that nobody else would do. So - you're kind of a pro-slavery kind of guy?

He is pointing out the free market results when the government interferes with a labor market.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

This is not exactly slavery. First, there are being paid. Second, they have choice. They can quit the job and go elsewhere

they don't feel they can.  They fled to come to the us and are desperate.  They can't just get another job because they're illegal.  They are trapped - while there might be theoretical options for them in practical terms there isnt.

And because their payment is far below what is considered the minimum required in those jurisdictions it is pretty close to slavery. I mean - slaved got "paid" as well, they recieved benefits including food, shelter, heat, education in some cases and skils -  that did NOT make slavery a good thing.

This is very close to that.  When you have someone who is desperate and has no practical alternatives and you are knowingly exploiting that to make them do labour at far below market rates that you KNOW nobody else would accept for the express reason that you couldn't afford to have a regular worker do it .. you're walking a thin line.

[impartialobserver]

52 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

they don't feel they can.  They fled to come to the us and are desperate.  They can't just get another job because they're illegal.  They are trapped - while there might be theoretical options for them in practical terms there isnt.

And because their payment is far below what is considered the minimum required in those jurisdictions it is pretty close to slavery. I mean - slaved got "paid" as well, they recieved benefits including food, shelter, heat, education in some cases and skils -  that did NOT make slavery a good thing.

This is very close to that.  When you have someone who is desperate and has no practical alternatives and you are knowingly exploiting that to make them do labour at far below market rates that you KNOW nobody else would accept for the express reason that you couldn't afford to have a regular worker do it .. you're walking a thin line.

I love it how when you explain a situation.. it must mean that you condone it. I do not condone it but nothing I say is going to change it.

Yet another person who can't delineate possible choices and good choices. The illegal can get another job. It happens all of the time. Agriculture, landscaping, and low end restaurants are the usual choices. Slaves did not make wages and have choice over what to spend the money on.. that is the difference. 

 

[NYLefty]

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So you mean we're exploiting desperate people to do work that nobody else would do. So - you're kind of a pro-slavery kind of guy?

Oh I feel your heartfelt concern?Silly Phoney Schmuck 

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

I love it how when you explain a situation.. it must mean that you condone it. I do not condone it but nothing I say is going to change it.

ummm.... can you point to where i said you condone it?     you said it's not slavery because they have choice and i said it's pretty close because they don't really.   Nobody said anything about condoning it that i can see

Quote

Yet another person who can't delineate possible choices and good choices. The illegal can get another job. It happens all of the time. Agriculture, landscaping, and low end restaurants are the usual choices. Slaves did not make wages and have choice over what to spend the money on.. that is the difference. 

Sometimes you take that normally decent mind of yours and just bash it against the wall till whatever nutbar idea you've fallen in love with makes sense to you,

 Being able to change one slave job for another slave job is not 'choice'  about being a slave.  It's like a slave saying "i can serve any master i want".

IF your choices in a practical sense are so limited that you don't have any real choices, AND someone takes advantage of that to take your work at below what the law would normally require, then this is no longer an arms length agreement.

IF you'd prefer- i suppose we could say it was more like indentured servitude  

[Hodad]

On 9/6/2023 at 12:06 PM, Perspektiv said:

Am pointing to the high influx of them, which is a separate issue.

One is simply part of having a border with a country. The issue am eluding to, is more based on the partial loss of control of your border.

This, is what is overwhelming some systems not built to handle that type of volume on top of the legal immigrants who are entering.

There is no doubt in my mind, that someone there illegally, would work the hardest, for the least pay--they literally have no choice.

There is also a reality, that a high percentage of illegal immigrants, will heavily rely on welfare systems such as food stamps, and other forms of financial aid. You call this reality racism, whereas a logical person would call this, "we should have better control of our borders", in having more of a say of who is allowed in.

Sorry, but the concept of immigration isn't about giving you a free stay on the backs of tax payers. Most immigrants are there to work and provide for their families, but you can't ignore the numbers. Immigration is based on what you can do for a country. Which is why entry is so difficult, as prerequisites must be met.

I comparatively mentioned Canada in having 4000 illegal immigrants in 2021. No issue. Not even news worthy.

40 000 flooding in, becomes a massive problem. Provinces like Quebec didn't have the resources to deal with this.

Ignoring this and pointing to racism, defies logic. Its playing politics, vs looking into a solution.

They aren't. There is no explanation needed.

You would need to explain how a high percentage of these people requiring food stamps and or some other forms of welfare services, is a good thing.

When flooding into specific states only, to boot. 

You have a faulty system. The status quo just isn't cutting it.

Just because many benefit, you can't ignore those who are punished by it.

Your logic is you standing by a burning house, and still pointing to it being sellable, due to the acreage.

Speaking of reality...

Undocumented immigrants aren't eligible for "welfare systems such as food stamps."

Many pay taxes and pay into these systems without being eligible to benefit from them.

Argument sort of falls apart, no?

Edited September 8, 2023 by Hodad

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Speaking of reality

Many illegal immigrants can seek asylum and have access to other means, at making them legal.

Obviously not all have access to welfare services.

But a significant amount who entered illegally, do.

Hows reality feel?

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Many illegal immigrants can seek asylum and have access to other means, at making them legal.

Obviously not all have access to welfare services.

But a significant amount who entered illegally, do.

Hows reality feel?

If they have been granted asylum, they are neither undocumented nor "illegal."?

And people granted asylum still aren't eligible for 5 years. Most of which must be spent working (unless they have some other means of support) and paying into the system.

 

ETA: You're sort of selling Reagan's "welfare queen" boogeyman, which wasn't true then and isn't true now. People aren't just waltzing across the border into a life of taxpayer supported leisure. Just isn't a real concern. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Hodad

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Hodad said:

If they have been granted asylum, they are neither undocumented nor "illegal."?

And people granted asylum still aren't eligible for 5 years. Most of which must be spent working (unless they have some other means of support) and paying into the system.

 

ETA: You're sort of selling Reagan's "welfare queen" boogeyman, which wasn't true then and isn't true now. People aren't just waltzing across the border into a life of taxpayer supported leisure. Just isn't a real concern. 

Ahem.

https://www.cdss.ca.gov/inforesources/immigration/covid-19-drai

https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/ca_public_benefits_for_noncitizens_sept_2022.pdf

https://calmatters.org/california-divide/2022/04/california-undocumented-immigrants/

That's just scratching the surface.  There's actually quite a lot of money available even if they have not been working

Sounds like you don't know as much as you thought about the costs.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Sounds like you don't know as much as you thought about the costs.

Boggles the mind, how one extreme tries hard to pretend that a massive influx of illegal aliens won't hurt an economy. Ignoring the stream of legal immigrants which already are in the market, also being hurt by this.

Sure the odd one in am sure is helpful as most will be under the obligation to keep their head down, and earn money in as much of a low key fashion as possible. 

People cite businesses that wouldn't be able to survive having to give actual rights to these people.

This is one of the most despicable excuses I often hear.

Like you couldn't find ways to bring in temporary migrant workers through the front door, as per done by many countries, from China, to Canada, and many in between. Really?

Heck, even this allows for modern day slavery, as employees have less rights, and thus are still vulnerable to exploitation. Imagine if undocumented. 

You're essentially accepting the reality of sexual exploitation, modern day slavery, just because a few of the others who are lucky enough, end up making a name for themselves.

This isn't the majority, as it should be (which would point to illegal immigration being a success).

Anyone stating this is good, have clearly not seen the dark side that they choose to ignore.

Making it a racial issue. Please. Its a poor policy issue.

[Rebound]

On 9/6/2023 at 6:15 AM, Perspektiv said:

Whats funny to me, is those who are happy with the high influx of illegal immigrants, absolutely hate having these people within their own states or jurisdictions in high volumes.

They realize that past a certain amount, their existing systems are too overwhelmed to handle this.

It then exacerbates a homelessness problem. The affordability problem.

You can't possibly run a country efficiently, without having a strong border.

I don't understand how this is controversial.

In Canada we went from 4000 illegal entries in 2021, to 40 000 in 2022. 

Even our government recognized that our systems were far too overburdened to accept such an additional number, after allowing and aiming for 500k legal immigrants annually.

They did the sensible thing, which was close and enforce the one border loophole that was so porous, that it created the issue to begin with.

Sure  it's impossible to fully stop the problem, but a lack of border control in my opinion, is highly irresponsible policy making at play here.

I don't think that most people are happy with the large numbers of illegal immigrants.

But the Republican party is lying about illegal Immigration. To send illegal immigrants back more swiftly, we need to change Federal Law. Has Kevin McCarthy even introduced immigration reform legislation? 

The law today says that if you set foot inside the country and say, "I am a political refugee," then you cannot be sent back.