Canadian Defence News

[Dougie93]

Just now, ExFlyer said:

Thats it, a part time soldier denigrating a CWO with a career in SAR serving Canadians coast to coast for 35 years?

you're right

I take it back

CWO is worthy of respect

apologies, sir

[ExFlyer]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

you're right

I take it back

CWO is worthy of respect

apologies, sir

I accept your cynical apology.

I also accept that you did not feel it important enough to be a full time soldier.

[Dougie93]

Just now, ExFlyer said:

I accept your cynical apology.

I also accept that you did not feel it important enough to be a full time soldier.

no cynicism, I apologize unreservedly for denigrating the rank

tho I felt that serving in a Militia regiment was very important

as the Regular Force simply cannot generate the number of troops for sustained operations

as such, Militia Augmentees provide as much as 30% of the deployed contingents

16 Militia soldiers killed, 75 wounded, in Afghanistan for example

furthermore, the Militia provides for a basis of recruitment and footprint in the local community

it's a vital role for a military as small as Canada's

[BeaverFever]

10 hours ago, Aristides said:

The are very concerned about China's claims in the South China Sea. Hence the need for inflight refuelling and the change to nuclear subs. Australia had troops in Afghanistan, both Gulf Wars. in fact, they have been involved in most of the conflicts we have plus a few others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Australia

Yeah but their contributions to those overseas campaigns are small and not very complex. 
 

Their concerns re: China is what I was referring to but I don’t think it poses the same airlift and refuelling demands as Canada 

Edited July 31, 2023 by BeaverFever

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Their concerns re: China is what I was referring to but I don’t think it poses the same airlift and refuelling demands as Canada 

there is no such thing as Canadian military "demands"

as Canada is inherently protected by fortress America whether America likes it or not

there is zero conventional military threat to Canada

Canada could easily get away with being Giant Iceland

no military at all, just providing bases of operations to the Americans as neccesary

NORAD is a fake tasking, since the Russians are never going to attack the continent by strategic bomber

and the 1949 Washignton Treaty doesn't stipulate that Canada has to provide any military forces at all

all it says, in the event of Article V declaration, is that the Canada must render support to the party attacked

there is nothing that says Canada has to provide military forces therein

Canada could provide ham sandwiches, and that would fulfill "rendering support"

hence why nobody in Canada is particulary worried about the collapse of the Canadian Forces

since everybody knows it's just another Ottawa boondoggle, which even Ottawa never takes seriously

[Moonlight Graham]

5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

this is just more of the Canadian Disease

a pathological insecurity about being a British colony living in the shadow of America

inciting the total dysfunction and utter ineptitude of the Confederation

They're just facts.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

They're just facts.

yes. the fact that Canada can never progress past being a British colony which became an American protectorate

it doesn't bother me mind you

being a Briton who loves America

while despising the imbecilic Canadian nanny state iron curtain against freedom

[BeaverFever]

7 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

there is no such thing as Canadian military "demands"

as Canada is inherently protected by fortress America whether America likes it or not

there is zero conventional military threat to Canada

Canada could easily get away with being Giant Iceland

no military at all, just providing bases of operations to the Americans as neccesary

NORAD is a fake tasking, since the Russians are never going to attack the continent by strategic bomber

and the 1949 Washignton Treaty doesn't stipulate that Canada has to provide any military forces at all

all it says, in the event of Article V declaration, is that the Canada must render support to the party attacked

there is nothing that says Canada has to provide military forces therein

Canada could provide ham sandwiches, and that would fulfill "rendering support"

hence why nobody in Canada is particulary worried about the collapse of the Canadian Forces

since everybody knows it's just another Ottawa boondoggle, which even Ottawa never takes seriously

Yes there are military demands. There are security threats to Canada beyond  simply being attacked. I hate it when people say Canada never be attacked therefore it has no security threats. Foreign submarines, surveillance balloons and military vessels in our waters and airspace is a threat  

 

Furthermore USA is one of the countries who refuse to recognize Canadian sovereignty in the arctic archipelago. If they do end up having to secure Canadian airspace or maritime borders out of their own self interest simply because we refuse to based on some sense of Canadian moral superiority, they will not do it for free or without cost to Canada. One way or another we will have to sacrifice something more in our relationship than we already do. I don’t think we need to be more in hock to the US than we already are. 
 

Yes we could withdraw from NATO entirely and become a giant Iceland. Having an expeditionary military is always a choice. Like most choices, it comes with consequences. As of now, Canadians haven’t wanted that choice because there is a diplomatic and economic price to pay to USA and Europe that we don’t wish to pay. Iceland has a tiny economy and only has a population of ~300,000 people and is protected by a US Naval Air Station based on its soil. Canada has no excuse and no appetite to reopen US military bases on Canadian soil. 

[herbie]

Sure we do. Could make a fortune off the cannabis shops that will open right off base.

 

[Dougie93]

9 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Yes there are military demands. There are security threats to Canada beyond  simply being attacked. I hate it when people say Canada never be attacked therefore it has no security threats. Foreign submarines, surveillance balloons and military vessels in our waters and airspace is a threat 

Furthermore USA is one of the countries who refuse to recognize Canadian sovereignty in the arctic archipelago. If they do end up having to secure Canadian airspace or maritime borders out of their own self interest simply because we refuse to based on some sense of Canadian moral superiority, they will not do it for free or without cost to Canada. One way or another we will have to sacrifice something more in our relationship than we already do. I don’t think we need to be more in hock to the US than we already are. 
 

Yes we could withdraw from NATO entirely and become a giant Iceland. Having an expeditionary military is always a choice. Like most choices, it comes with consequences. As of now, Canadians haven’t wanted that choice because there is a diplomatic and economic price to pay to USA and Europe that we don’t wish to pay. Iceland has a tiny economy and only has a population of ~300,000 people and is protected by a US Naval Air Station based on its soil. Canada has no excuse and no appetite to reopen US military bases on Canadian soil. 

I used to think like you do, I used to make all the same arguments

but after my friends were killed in Afghanistan

directly due to this uniquely Canadian military dysfunction

I couldn't believe in my own arguments anymore

I had even recruited, indoctrinated and trained soldiers who were killed based on these arguments

so it turned out to be bullshit

they really did send super soldiers into battle in a war, riding in jeeps

and they were instantly killed, sent to their certain deaths in the forlorn hope

and it was entirely because Canada doesn't have the wherewithal to properly equip them

and because the army was so degraded, it couldn't actually fight in combined arms anymore

 frontal attack against an entrenched enemy mounted in jeeps

because they really didn't have any other options, and they were severely lacking of firepower

and it had nothing to do with the budget

Canada spends more on DND than many countries which have very well equipped full spectrum forces

what it comes down to in the end is just Canadian culture

the Peacekeeping myth

Canada said that all they needed was jeeps and light armoured cars : for Peacekeeping

then they sent the army into an actual war

so I just don't believe in it anymore

like the military is not in "crisis" as the CDS claims

this  uniquely Canadian dysfunction is simply the permanent state of the military

it's not going to be fixed, it's not going to improve, because this is how it is, by design

so my view is that it should all be massively scaled down, just to minimize the damage

trying to build a full spectrum military with the Peacekeeping myth is a fool's errand

no lessons were learned, Canada did not say :

"we weren't prepared for the last war, so let's get prepared for the next one"

quite the opposite, in the wake, the army was quickly hollowed out again

now Canada says its principle military imperative is Diversity, Equity & Inlcusion

along with investigating the military for rampant "sexual assault & white supremacy"

this is not about incompetence

this is the government actively trying to sabotage its own military

the political class despises its own military and it out to dismantle it

you say I am "anti-Canadian"

but really the anti-Canadian position is trying to build a military to fight wars

the pro-Canadian position is to say that Canada doesn't fight wars

Canada only does Peacekeeping

therefore, that is what the Canadian military should be designed to do

just a civil defence force for domestic operations and UN Peacekeeping

culture is destiny

it's not that I'm anti-Canadian, I just don't believe in Canada anymore

it's been too many decades of hearing the exact same bullshit over & over

the things you are saying, I was saying those exact same things forty years ago

yet it's just been a long slow but steady decline into more of the same

at some point you just have to acknowledge that this is the nature of Canada

particularly when you contrast it with what Australia has done over that same period

Australia has two aircraft carriers and is acquiring Virginia class SSN's

while Canada can't even provide basic equipment such as helmets, uniforms & sleeping bags

it's not a case of being disgruntled

it's just that the governments of Canada are so unserious about national security

that it has become impossible to take anything they say about it seriously

it's become farcical at this point, tragicomedy

I mean, the Chinese have set up bases in Canada and are using Mounties to terrorize Canadians

but I'm supposed to be impressed that we bought some Airbuses to fly the PM around in ?

that's honestly  more frightening than it is disgruntling

Edited July 31, 2023 by Dougie93

[ExFlyer]

4 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I used to think like you do, I used to make all the same arguments

but after my friends were killed in Afghanistan

directly due to this uniquely Canadian military dysfunction

I couldn't believe in my own arguments anymore

I had even recruited, indoctrinated and trained soldiers who were killed based on these arguments

so it turned out to be bullshit

they really did send super soldiers into battle in a war, riding in jeeps

and they were instantly killed, sent to their certain deaths in the forlorn hope

and it was entirely because Canada doesn't have the wherewithal to properly equip them

and because the army was so degraded, it couldn't actually fight in combined arms anymore

 frontal attack against an entrenched enemy mounted in jeeps

because they really didn't have any other options, and they were severely lacking of firepower

and it had nothing to do with the budget

Canada spends more on DND than many countries which have very well equipped full spectrum forces

what it comes down to in the end is just Canadian culture

the Peacekeeping myth

Canada said that all they needed was jeeps and light armoured cars : for Peacekeeping

then they sent the army into an actual war

so I just don't believe in it anymore

like the military is not in "crisis" as the CDS claims

this  uniquely Canadian dysfunction is simply the permanent state of the military

it's not going to be fixed, it's not going to improve, because this is how it is, by design

so my view is that it should all be massively scaled down, just to minimize the damage

trying to build a full spectrum military with the Peacekeeping myth is a fool's errand

no lessons were learned, Canada did not say :

"we weren't prepared for the last war, so let's get prepared for the next one"

quite the opposite, in the wake, the army was quickly hollowed out again

now Canada says its principle military imperative is Diversity, Equity & Inlcusion

along with investigating the military for rampant "sexual assault & white supremacy"

this is not about incompetence

this is the government actively trying to sabotage its own military

the political class despises its own military and it out to dismantle it

you say I am "anti-Canadian"

but really the anti-Canadian position is trying to build a military to fight wars

the pro-Canadian position is to say that Canada doesn't fight wars

Canada only does Peacekeeping

therefore, that is what the Canadian military should be designed to do

just a civil defence force for domestic operations and UN Peacekeeping

culture is destiny

it's not that I'm anti-Canadian, I just don't believe in Canada anymore

it's been too many decades of hearing the exact same bullshit over & over

the things you are saying, I was saying those exact same things forty years ago

yet it's just been a long slow but steady decline into more of the same

at some point you just have to acknowledge that this is the nature of Canada

particularly when you contrast it with what Australia has done over that same period

Australia has two aircraft carriers and is acquiring Virginia class SSN's

while Canada can't even provide basic equipment such as helmets, uniforms & sleeping bags

it's not a case of being disgruntled

it's just that the governments of Canada are so unserious about national security

that it has become impossible to take anything they say about it seriously

it's become farcical at this point, tragicomedy

I mean, the Chinese have set up bases in Canada and are using Mounties to terrorize Canadians

but I'm supposed to be impressed that we bought some Airbuses to fly the PM around in ?

that's honestly  more frightening than it is disgruntling

You have a very narrow singular view of the DND and Canadian military.

158 Military personnel perished in 13 years of activity in Afghan war. While 1 is too many, war is war and people die and if wee were in full front line combat, it would have been many more..

Canada has and had equipment to accomplish what missions it was designated to carry out. Canada upgraded equipment during the Afghan war.

Lastly, we pulled out the last of our personnel out in 2014 (many left long before that) so, living in the past is just that, in the past.

Oh and we did not buy airbus to fly the PM around. They will not have a VIP package. They were purchased to refuel our fighters and to fly our troops around and resupply our military personnel outside and inside Canada.

So, if you are going to criticize, be current and get acquainted with the facts..

[Dougie93]

I don't blame the military nor DND

again, it's ingrained in the culture

something like "Americans are the Warmongers, Canadians are the Peacekeepers"

this Peacekeeper mythology then incites Canada to spend hundreds of billions of dollars

to not build a warfighting force, but rather do anything but

it;'s not incompetence which causes Canada to send the troops to war in jeeps

it's by design,  because that's how "Peacekeepers" are supposed to be deployed

[BeaverFever]

5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I used to think like you do, I used to make all the same arguments

but after my friends were killed in Afghanistan

directly due to this uniquely Canadian military dysfunction

I couldn't believe in my own arguments anymore

I had even recruited, indoctrinated and trained soldiers who were killed based on these arguments

so it turned out to be bullshit

they really did send super soldiers into battle in a war, riding in jeeps

and they were instantly killed, sent to their certain deaths in the forlorn hope

and it was entirely because Canada doesn't have the wherewithal to properly equip them

and because the army was so degraded, it couldn't actually fight in combined arms anymore

 frontal attack against an entrenched enemy mounted in jeeps

because they really didn't have any other options, and they were severely lacking of firepower

and it had nothing to do with the budget

Canada spends more on DND than many countries which have very well equipped full spectrum forces

what it comes down to in the end is just Canadian culture

the Peacekeeping myth

Canada said that all they needed was jeeps and light armoured cars : for Peacekeeping

then they sent the army into an actual war

so I just don't believe in it anymore

like the military is not in "crisis" as the CDS claims

this  uniquely Canadian dysfunction is simply the permanent state of the military

it's not going to be fixed, it's not going to improve, because this is how it is, by design

so my view is that it should all be massively scaled down, just to minimize the damage

trying to build a full spectrum military with the Peacekeeping myth is a fool's errand

no lessons were learned, Canada did not say :

"we weren't prepared for the last war, so let's get prepared for the next one"

quite the opposite, in the wake, the army was quickly hollowed out again

now Canada says its principle military imperative is Diversity, Equity & Inlcusion

along with investigating the military for rampant "sexual assault & white supremacy"

this is not about incompetence

this is the government actively trying to sabotage its own military

the political class despises its own military and it out to dismantle it

you say I am "anti-Canadian"

but really the anti-Canadian position is trying to build a military to fight wars

the pro-Canadian position is to say that Canada doesn't fight wars

Canada only does Peacekeeping

therefore, that is what the Canadian military should be designed to do

just a civil defence force for domestic operations and UN Peacekeeping

culture is destiny

it's not that I'm anti-Canadian, I just don't believe in Canada anymore

it's been too many decades of hearing the exact same bullshit over & over

the things you are saying, I was saying those exact same things forty years ago

yet it's just been a long slow but steady decline into more of the same

at some point you just have to acknowledge that this is the nature of Canada

particularly when you contrast it with what Australia has done over that same period

Australia has two aircraft carriers and is acquiring Virginia class SSN's

while Canada can't even provide basic equipment such as helmets, uniforms & sleeping bags

it's not a case of being disgruntled

it's just that the governments of Canada are so unserious about national security

that it has become impossible to take anything they say about it seriously

it's become farcical at this point, tragicomedy

I mean, the Chinese have set up bases in Canada and are using Mounties to terrorize Canadians

but I'm supposed to be impressed that we bought some Airbuses to fly the PM around in ?

that's honestly  more frightening than it is disgruntling

Its true that Canadians don’t take defence seriously and there has long been a mismatch between defence funding and the operations the military is sent on. Consequently the military must always consider whether they should maintain the current spectrum of capabilities or simply do fewer jobs bette.  Vehicles like the LSVW and Griffons are exemplify that they don’t always make the best decisions but they are tough decisions to make.   That’s how it is in Canada. Replacing the Polaris fleet with the Husky fleet is one less embarrassingly degraded core capability to worry about. 
 

PS nobody if Afghanistan conducted frontal assaults in jeeps/Iltises. And the story of CDN soldiers in Latvia “having” to buy their own kit was debunked. Soldiers throughout history have always customized and supplemented their personal gear with privately acquired items and that turned out to be the kernel of truth at the source of this story For example while the Canadian CG634 infantry helmet has been widely respected around the world (there are youtube videos of American gun enthusiasts shooting different kinds of helmets and singing its praises) the design of it and its recent gen2 version is around 30yrs old now and the cool kids now have lighter, more comfortable rigs with ear cutouts and built-in accessory mounts so that is just one example of privately acquired “Gucci” kit that the Canadians are acquiring. They are not being deployed without standard issue kit. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by BeaverFever

[Dougie93]

19 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

PS nobody if Afghanistan conducted frontal assaults in jeeps/Iltises.. 

Warrant Officer Rick Nolan, killed in the opening volley of the attack on Op Medusa, 3 September 2006

RPG-7 right through the window of his G-Wagon

the objective being s well prepared defensive position of dug in Insurgents

although at times they didn't have any vehicles nor supporting elements at all

such as Sergeant Vaughn Ingram having to launch a dismounted section attack across open ground

against a numerically superior dug in force, which is literally a suicide mission

Edited July 31, 2023 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

53 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

For example while the Canadian CG634 infantry helmet has been widely respected around the world (there are youtube videos of American gun enthusiasts shooting different kinds of helmets and singing its praises) the design of it and its recent gen2 version is around 30yrs old now and the cool kids now have lighter, more comfortable rigs with ear cutouts and built-in accessory mounts so that is just one example of privately acquired “Gucci” kit that the Canadians are acquiring. They are not being deployed without standard issue kit. 

the army's major deficiency is the lack of a proper infantry fighting vehicle

when they bought the LAV III back in the 90's

they straight up told us that it was not meant for warfighting operations

it was only meant to be used for "Peacekeeping"

since we would never be deployed for war again, only "Peacekeeping"

this was on top of telling us that we didn't need tanks, those would be replaced by LAVIII

we also didn't need artillery anymore, there was only a handful of 105mm towed howitzers kept around

we didn't need Chinooks, those were sold off to the Dutch

Griffon would be the only helicopter we would ever need for "Peacekeeping"

there was no more need for TOW missiles, there was no more need for Air Defence

the list of things they said we didn't need just kept getting longer & longer

furthermore, there was no more need to operate at Brigade level

the Brigade Group was de facto replaced by the Battle Group

so the largest combined arms formation to be deployed would only ever be three rifle companies

we of course all said that this was crazy, they were reducing the army to an armed constabulary

but this was the force that was sent into Afghanistan just a few years later

minus the Griffon helicopters at first, which they said were "not deployable to theatre"

Edited July 31, 2023 by Dougie93

[BeaverFever]

26 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Warrant Officer Rick Nolan, killed in the opening volley of the attack on Op Medusa, 3 September 2006

RPG-7 right through the window of his G-Wagon

the objective being s well prepared defensive position of dug in Insurgents

According to the account I read the entire company was ambushed while enroute to the assault or at the initial release point and there were LAVs infront. I obviously can’t  speak to why Nolan and his party were in a G-wagon (which sounds like it was up-armoured and as you know is not a jeep) instead of one of the LAVs but it’s not like there weren’t LAVs.  
 

Far be it from me to question experienced soldiers but how do you stumble into an ambush that big?  That operation, tactics and choice of vehicles was not planned by politicians in Ottawa it was planned by commanders in theatre. 

[Dougie93]

15 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

According to the account I read the entire company was ambushed while enroute to the assault or at the initial release point and there were LAVs infront. I obviously can’t  speak to why Nolan and his party were in a G-wagon (which sounds like it was up-armoured and as you know is not a jeep) instead of one of the LAVs but it’s not like there weren’t LAVs.  
 

Far be it from me to question experienced soldiers but how do you stumble into an ambush that big?  That operation, tactics and choice of vehicles was not planned by politicians in Ottawa it was planned by commanders in theatre. 

there weren't; enough LAV's to go around, so G-Wagons had to be put into action

it wasn't really an ambush

so much as they crossed the riverbed, rolled up the front of the Taliban positions

then the Taliban just opened fire with a barrage of RPG-7's

in terms of the planning. when you have that few troops to get the job done

there's not much you can do in terms of manoeuvre

you're not going to be detaching Sections to do flankings or whatever

because they are to easily cut off and overrun

when all you have is a Rifle Comany

you're basically going to do either two Platoons up, one in reserve

or one Platoon up with two in reserve

in theory you can do Platoon attacks, but only against a Section sized element

pretty rare to find an isolated Section sized element on a real battlefield

Edited July 31, 2023 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

was not planned by politicians in Ottawa

again, Ottawa set the conditions years in advance

by ensuring that they could not support a large enough force in the field relative to even a small enemy force

and they stripped the army of all its firepower protection & mobility

so that it could not overmatch even lightly armed insurgents

it was entirely predictable, we troops were predicting that this would be the outcome at the time

we didn't know where, we didn't know when, but we knew that there would be another war someday

the troops don't believe in the Peacekeeping myth

we already knew from Yugoslavia that UN Peacekeeping was obsolete in a Post Cold War paradigm

we already knew from Somalia that sending a force in unprepared would result in catastrophe

the morale spiralled into a Decade of Darkness under the Chretien LIberals

when the Airborne Regiment was disbanded, things were at the threshold of mutiny in Petawawa

the Commandos wrecked the Kyrenia Club, somebody blew up the RSM's truck with an arty sim

Reg Force troops were talking about "shooting the politicians in Ottawa"

Darnell Bass was arrested for doing an armoured car robbery with some Militia guy

we found out that what went down in Somalia was probably due to Mefloquine

the Somalia Inquiry had completely destroyed faith in the chain of command

there was non stop brawling, internecine fights within the unit

I remember one night down at Sassy's

Bravo Company & Charles Company were getting ready to have a rumble against each other

I went to visit a buddy down at NDMC, and I walked past Clayton Matchee's room

I just looked in and nodded at him, and he nodded back

and I thought, holy shit, there he is, the guy who brought the roof down on our heads

it was crazy times

Edited July 31, 2023 by Dougie93

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

there weren't; enough LAV's to go around, so G-Wagons had to be put into action

it wasn't really an ambush

so much as they crossed the riverbed, rolled up the front of the Taliban positions

then the Taliban just opened fire with a barrage of RPG-7's

in terms of the planning. when you have that few troops to get the job done

there's not much you can do in terms of manoeuvre

you're not going to be detaching Sections to do flankings or whatever

because they are to easily cut off and overrun

when all you have is a Rifle Comany

you're basically going to do either two Platoons up, one in reserve

or one Platoon up with two in reserve

in theory you can do Platoon attacks, but only against a Section sized element

pretty rare to find an isolated Section sized element on a real battlefield

The description I read said “horseshoe ambush” and used the word “ambush m” throughout but it did sound like it happened very close to the objective.  
 

But regardless there was no recce?  No air support? USAF was happy enough to come along and bomb the abandoned/disabled Canadian vehicles afterward to keep them out of Taliban hands but they couldn’t get an aerial view of this massive Taliban force ahead of time?  If there weren’t enough personnel or vehicles on the ground for success (after a previous failure to take the objective no less) then it still would have been irresponsible for commanders to proceed with the Operation. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by BeaverFever

[BeaverFever]

Not so much “news” as an in-depth look at a recently signed contract:

 

From 511 to 612: How Leonardo & IMP plan to overhaul the Canadian Cormorant

By Chris Thatcher | July 27, 2023

Estimated reading time 12 minutes, 8 seconds. 

Design work is underway on a complex program that will deliver 16 almost-new CH-149 Cormorant search-and-rescue (SAR) helicopters to the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) over the next six years.

Leonardo UK, the aircraft manufacturer, and IMP Aerospace and Defence, the in-service support partner for the CH-149 fleet, are currently completing the digital design development on a mid-life upgrade for the aircraft. This will ultimately involve an extensive overhaul of the 22-year-old airframe, to bring it up to the same standard as the new Norwegian AW101-612 All-Weather Search-and-Rescue Helicopter.

“There are Canadian-specific requirements,” explained Dominic Howe, campaign manager in Canada for Leonardo Helicopters. “Those have all now been introduced and we’re continuing through that [design] process and getting ready for build in the near future.”

Just before Christmas 2022, following a lengthy and at times contentious negotiation, the federal government concluded a contract with Leonardo to deliver three new Cormorants, a variant of the AW101, and upgrade various systems, sensors, engines, and other components on the RCAF’s remaining 13 CH-149s, known as the Dash -511, to match most of the capability of the Norwegian AW101-612, which entered service in 2020.

The government opted to upgrade the heavily employed SAR helicopters to the Norwegian standard rather than replace the entire fleet because “using this already-established configuration accelerates the project considerably,” Public Services and Procurement Canada stated when the department and the RCAF began negotiations with Leonardo in 2018.

The RCAF will increase its Cormorant fleet to 16 aircraft, with the three new airframes allowing it to return the type to 424 Transport and Rescue Squadron at 8 Wing Trenton, Ontario. Heath Moffatt Photo

The Air Force had hoped to expand the fleet to as many as 21 aircraft, but the increase to 16 with three new airframes means the RCAF can still meet a key objective of returning the Cormorant to 424 Transport and Rescue Squadron at 8 Wing Trenton. Since 2005, the squadron has responded to SAR calls in central and northern Canada with five CH-146 Griffons, a variant of the Bell 412.

The upgrade will include reusing components from the current CH-149 airframes as well as from nine VH-71 helicopters — also a variant of the AW101 — that Canada acquired for spare parts in 2011 when the U.S. presidential helicopter program was cancelled. While the VH-71 airframes are no longer airworthy, components, including control surfaces, transmissions, and General Electric 3,000 horsepower CT7-8E engines can be repurposed.

Leonardo U.K. will build three new airframes at its production facility in Yeovil. Upgrades to the remaining 13 and final assembly of certain systems on the three new aircraft will be completed by IMP at its Nova Scotia facility near the Halifax Stanfield International Airport. Even the new builds will use some donor parts from the Dash 511 and VH-71 fleets.

The overhaul will include new avionics and wiring throughout, but will “utilize the high value components from not only the existing [Cormorant] fleet, but also the ex-U.S. presidential aircraft: engines, main gearbox, tail gearbox, the undercarriage — all those large mechanical items will still very much be used,” said Howe.

Both Leonardo and IMP have surveyed the VH-71 inventory of components “to look at [their] status,” added Clark Bain, IMP’s senior vice president of strategic development, “and then Leonardo has done a lot of work on the engineering side to say, how do we take [them] from the current 511 fleet … and then modify them … to go on to the 612.”

By limiting the Canadian-specific modifications to “some interior customizations and some small amendments to the communications equipment,” Howe explained, Canada is gaining the “benefit of a low-risk solution. Some of it has already been designed, developed, certified by an independent third-party certification board. So, it’s really a case of then just applying these small changes for Canadian content.”

“I think it will be almost indistinguishable from a truly newly built aircraft,” Major Brett Banadyga, operation requirements manager for the Cormorant Mid-Life Upgrade (CMLU) project, told Skies earlier this year.

To be as efficient as possible, IMP will assemble the donor components modified and repaired by Leonardo and “run this like a production line,” rather than a modification line, “which will very much mirror Leonardo’s new aircraft production line,” said Bain.

“All the lessons that Leonardo has learned over decades of building helicopters will then come across to Canada, and be embodied in the Canadian production line,” he said. “The only difference is, it’s a mix of both new, modified and refurbished parts.”

IMP has begun preparing tooling, jigs, fixtures and test tools for the CMLU line and will soon send people in phases to Yeovil to train on the Leonardo line. “They’ll then bring those skills back to Canada … and train the rest of the workforce to operate on that production floor,” said Bain.

The companies are banking on their collective history with the airframe — as manufacturer and in-service support provider to both the current fleet and CLMU program — to manage risk, as the helicopters are withdrawn and then returned to service. IMP, in particular, has detailed knowledge on where each aircraft is in its maintenance cycle.

“The dance of when you retire an aircraft, when you pull spares out of supporting the current fleet, to then go into the production for the new fleet, is really complex,” Bain said. “And it’s only by the fact that we both sit on both sides of that, that it works.”

The process will mirror the current practice for component repair, added Howe. “When a gearbox needs to be repaired, overhauled or modified, it goes back to Yeovil, for example. IMP has workshare that they will also undertake. So, it is complicated, but it’s actually following [a] process that’s been in place for 20 years.”

The CMLU program could also inject more predictability into the supply chain, he suggested. If maintenance has at times been managed “on an ad hoc basis” as individual helicopters require component repair and replacement, the upgrade program will provide greater “advanced visibility” on the need for components as Cormorants are pulled from service to begin their overhaul. “That allows the supply chain to ensure that they have everything all in place to support that process,” said Howe.

The first three aircraft, all new builds, will be produced in Yeovil and should be on the IMP production line in 2025. They are expected to be delivered to the RCAF in 2026, and sent to 19 Wing Comox, British Columbia, to allow the RCAF to begin initial crew training, pilot conversion, and some operational test and evaluation of the new capability.

The next deliveries, beginning in 2027, will go to 14 Wing Greenwood, Nova Scotia, then 9 Wing Gander, Newfoundland, and finally 8 Wing Trenton, Ontario. The fleet is expected to be fully operational by 2029 and operate into the 2040s.

“That whole process has to be managed very carefully – we can’t allow SAR to fail,” said Howe. “That is the fundamental backbone in this project. Those first three aircraft … enable us to [bring them] into service so we’re not reducing the full fleet.”

By modifying the Cormorant to a variant already in service, the RCAF should also be able to reduce its certification timeline. “We’re going to be leveraging … independent third-party certification for Canada,” he said. “Those conversations have already commenced between stakeholders.”

After 21 years of supporting the CH-149 fleet, IMP is familiar with issues that have disrupted the airframe, such as parts obsolescence and corrosion due to low-level operations over saltwater. Bain said IMP’s lessons, as well as those of Leonardo and the air force, “have been feeding their way into the new designs that Leonardo is putting together. The 615 is going to embody a lot of the lessons we learned 10 to 15 years ago on the 511 fleet. You’re seeing the benefit of the Canadian experience coming back to Canada again.”

“A simple example is how the seat rails are configured and coated and protected. There’s a whole raft of little things like that that are now in the design of the 600 series that were not in the 500 originally. Not only is Canada getting the benefit of that, all the 600 users are getting that because it was fed back into the system.”

While the RCAF has opted to forego the Leonardo Osprey AESA radar and LiDAR (light detection and ranging) system that are part of the Norwegian 612, the Cormorants will incorporate a L3 Harris WESCAM electro-optical/infrared system and introduce a Smith Myers ARTEMIS mobile phone detection location system.

Most of the other systems are the same, including advanced autopilot and full authority digital engine control. Avionics upgrades will include a more integrated, large screen glass cockpit with moving map display, a terrain avoidance and warning system, synthetic vision, and a significantly improved weather radar. The primary difference is the cabin configuration, said Howe, as the two countries have different concepts of operations for conducting SAR and how they employ their flight engineer or sensor operator.

This article was originally posted by Skies’ sister publication, Vertical Magazine
 

https://skiesmag.com/news/511-612-how-leonardo-imp-plan-overhaul-canadian-cormorant-helicopter/

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

But regardless there was no recce? 

I've always wondered about that myself

I was a Recce Patrolman and doctrine was everything has to be Recce'd in detail prior to the advance

I honestly don't why there was no recce nor screen

if I had to guess, it would that it was Taliban country, the place was crawling with them

so sending a small  Recce element into the village might have been considered to be too risky

if you're going in there, you go in force, since you do not want to risk capture by the Muj

[ExFlyer]

4 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Not so much “news” as an in-depth look at a recently signed contract:

 

From 511 to 612: How Leonardo & IMP plan to overhaul the Canadian Cormorant

By Chris Thatcher | July 27, 2023

Estimated reading time 12 minutes, 8 seconds. 

Design work is underway on a complex program that will deliver 16 almost-new CH-149 Cormorant search-and-rescue (SAR) helicopters to the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) over the next six years.

Leonardo UK, the aircraft manufacturer, and IMP Aerospace and Defence, the in-service support partner for the CH-149 fleet, are currently completing the digital design development on a mid-life upgrade for the aircraft. This will ultimately involve an extensive overhaul of the 22-year-old airframe, to bring it up to the same standard as the new Norwegian AW101-612 All-Weather Search-and-Rescue Helicopter.

“There are Canadian-specific requirements,” explained Dominic Howe, campaign manager in Canada for Leonardo Helicopters. “Those have all now been introduced and we’re continuing through that [design] process and getting ready for build in the near future.”

Just before Christmas 2022, following a lengthy and at times contentious negotiation, the federal government concluded a contract with Leonardo to deliver three new Cormorants, a variant of the AW101, and upgrade various systems, sensors, engines, and other components on the RCAF’s remaining 13 CH-149s, known as the Dash -511, to match most of the capability of the Norwegian AW101-612, which entered service in 2020.

The government opted to upgrade the heavily employed SAR helicopters to the Norwegian standard rather than replace the entire fleet because “using this already-established configuration accelerates the project considerably,” Public Services and Procurement Canada stated when the department and the RCAF began negotiations with Leonardo in 2018.

The RCAF will increase its Cormorant fleet to 16 aircraft, with the three new airframes allowing it to return the type to 424 Transport and Rescue Squadron at 8 Wing Trenton, Ontario. Heath Moffatt Photo

The Air Force had hoped to expand the fleet to as many as 21 aircraft, but the increase to 16 with three new airframes means the RCAF can still meet a key objective of returning the Cormorant to 424 Transport and Rescue Squadron at 8 Wing Trenton. Since 2005, the squadron has responded to SAR calls in central and northern Canada with five CH-146 Griffons, a variant of the Bell 412.

The upgrade will include reusing components from the current CH-149 airframes as well as from nine VH-71 helicopters — also a variant of the AW101 — that Canada acquired for spare parts in 2011 when the U.S. presidential helicopter program was cancelled. While the VH-71 airframes are no longer airworthy, components, including control surfaces, transmissions, and General Electric 3,000 horsepower CT7-8E engines can be repurposed.

Leonardo U.K. will build three new airframes at its production facility in Yeovil. Upgrades to the remaining 13 and final assembly of certain systems on the three new aircraft will be completed by IMP at its Nova Scotia facility near the Halifax Stanfield International Airport. Even the new builds will use some donor parts from the Dash 511 and VH-71 fleets.

The overhaul will include new avionics and wiring throughout, but will “utilize the high value components from not only the existing [Cormorant] fleet, but also the ex-U.S. presidential aircraft: engines, main gearbox, tail gearbox, the undercarriage — all those large mechanical items will still very much be used,” said Howe.

Both Leonardo and IMP have surveyed the VH-71 inventory of components “to look at [their] status,” added Clark Bain, IMP’s senior vice president of strategic development, “and then Leonardo has done a lot of work on the engineering side to say, how do we take [them] from the current 511 fleet … and then modify them … to go on to the 612.”

By limiting the Canadian-specific modifications to “some interior customizations and some small amendments to the communications equipment,” Howe explained, Canada is gaining the “benefit of a low-risk solution. Some of it has already been designed, developed, certified by an independent third-party certification board. So, it’s really a case of then just applying these small changes for Canadian content.”

“I think it will be almost indistinguishable from a truly newly built aircraft,” Major Brett Banadyga, operation requirements manager for the Cormorant Mid-Life Upgrade (CMLU) project, told Skies earlier this year.

To be as efficient as possible, IMP will assemble the donor components modified and repaired by Leonardo and “run this like a production line,” rather than a modification line, “which will very much mirror Leonardo’s new aircraft production line,” said Bain.

“All the lessons that Leonardo has learned over decades of building helicopters will then come across to Canada, and be embodied in the Canadian production line,” he said. “The only difference is, it’s a mix of both new, modified and refurbished parts.”

IMP has begun preparing tooling, jigs, fixtures and test tools for the CMLU line and will soon send people in phases to Yeovil to train on the Leonardo line. “They’ll then bring those skills back to Canada … and train the rest of the workforce to operate on that production floor,” said Bain.

The companies are banking on their collective history with the airframe — as manufacturer and in-service support provider to both the current fleet and CLMU program — to manage risk, as the helicopters are withdrawn and then returned to service. IMP, in particular, has detailed knowledge on where each aircraft is in its maintenance cycle.

“The dance of when you retire an aircraft, when you pull spares out of supporting the current fleet, to then go into the production for the new fleet, is really complex,” Bain said. “And it’s only by the fact that we both sit on both sides of that, that it works.”

The process will mirror the current practice for component repair, added Howe. “When a gearbox needs to be repaired, overhauled or modified, it goes back to Yeovil, for example. IMP has workshare that they will also undertake. So, it is complicated, but it’s actually following [a] process that’s been in place for 20 years.”

The CMLU program could also inject more predictability into the supply chain, he suggested. If maintenance has at times been managed “on an ad hoc basis” as individual helicopters require component repair and replacement, the upgrade program will provide greater “advanced visibility” on the need for components as Cormorants are pulled from service to begin their overhaul. “That allows the supply chain to ensure that they have everything all in place to support that process,” said Howe.

The first three aircraft, all new builds, will be produced in Yeovil and should be on the IMP production line in 2025. They are expected to be delivered to the RCAF in 2026, and sent to 19 Wing Comox, British Columbia, to allow the RCAF to begin initial crew training, pilot conversion, and some operational test and evaluation of the new capability.

The next deliveries, beginning in 2027, will go to 14 Wing Greenwood, Nova Scotia, then 9 Wing Gander, Newfoundland, and finally 8 Wing Trenton, Ontario. The fleet is expected to be fully operational by 2029 and operate into the 2040s.

“That whole process has to be managed very carefully – we can’t allow SAR to fail,” said Howe. “That is the fundamental backbone in this project. Those first three aircraft … enable us to [bring them] into service so we’re not reducing the full fleet.”

By modifying the Cormorant to a variant already in service, the RCAF should also be able to reduce its certification timeline. “We’re going to be leveraging … independent third-party certification for Canada,” he said. “Those conversations have already commenced between stakeholders.”

After 21 years of supporting the CH-149 fleet, IMP is familiar with issues that have disrupted the airframe, such as parts obsolescence and corrosion due to low-level operations over saltwater. Bain said IMP’s lessons, as well as those of Leonardo and the air force, “have been feeding their way into the new designs that Leonardo is putting together. The 615 is going to embody a lot of the lessons we learned 10 to 15 years ago on the 511 fleet. You’re seeing the benefit of the Canadian experience coming back to Canada again.”

“A simple example is how the seat rails are configured and coated and protected. There’s a whole raft of little things like that that are now in the design of the 600 series that were not in the 500 originally. Not only is Canada getting the benefit of that, all the 600 users are getting that because it was fed back into the system.”

While the RCAF has opted to forego the Leonardo Osprey AESA radar and LiDAR (light detection and ranging) system that are part of the Norwegian 612, the Cormorants will incorporate a L3 Harris WESCAM electro-optical/infrared system and introduce a Smith Myers ARTEMIS mobile phone detection location system.

Most of the other systems are the same, including advanced autopilot and full authority digital engine control. Avionics upgrades will include a more integrated, large screen glass cockpit with moving map display, a terrain avoidance and warning system, synthetic vision, and a significantly improved weather radar. The primary difference is the cabin configuration, said Howe, as the two countries have different concepts of operations for conducting SAR and how they employ their flight engineer or sensor operator.

This article was originally posted by Skies’ sister publication, Vertical Magazine
 

https://skiesmag.com/news/511-612-how-leonardo-imp-plan-overhaul-canadian-cormorant-helicopter/

I am very familiar with the Cormorant program.

The mid life upgrades and updates were planned decades ago. It was always known there would be one. The EH101, which is the parent helicopter, was still in development when we purchased them.

The updates and upgrades will enable more capability than we have now and the Cormorant is so far beyond the capability we had with the Labrador and with the updates, it will be more capable yet.

We will never have all the bells and whistles that are available but, Cormorant SAR can go much farther, higher and longer than the Labrador ever could and with the updates, will do it even better.

[Dougie93]

15 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

No air support? USAF was happy enough to come along and bomb the abandoned/disabled Canadian vehicles afterward to keep them out of Taliban hands but they couldn’t get an aerial view of this massive Taliban force ahead of time? 

there was air support, the A-10 was working the place over prior to

but then the A-19 strafed 8 Platoon in the Blue on Blue, so maybe that got it called off

17 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

If there weren’t enough personnel or vehicles on the ground for success (after a previous failure to take the objective no less) then it still would have been irresponsible for commanders to proceed with the Operation. 

what are you going to do ?

the chain of command is telling you to take that objective with the assets you have

those are orders, you can't refuse them

[ExFlyer]

11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I've always wondered about that myself

I was a Recce Patrolman and doctrine was everything has to be Recce'd in detail prior to the advance

I honestly don't why there was no recce nor screen

if I had to guess, it would that it was Taliban country, the place was crawling with them

so sending a small  Recce element into the village might have been considered to be too risky

if you're going in there, you go in force, since you do not want to risk capture by the Muj

Blaming politicians and even government for in theatre actions is pure politicizing. The chain of command ends with on scene commanders and begins with the commanders on scene.

Failure in RECCE and poor planning is the sole responsibility of the commanders on scene.

As I understood, they were on patrol and not full force and got ambushed.

You seem to be an expert in this incident? Were you on scene? Were you part of the investigation? Part of the command structure? Part of the review? Part of the report writing? Seen all the evidence? Or are you just a locker room critic espousing rumour and innuendo?

Edited July 31, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Dougie93]

15 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Blaming politicians and even government for in theatre actions is pure politicizing.

Failure in RECCE and poor planning is the sole responsibility of the commanders on scene.

As I understood, they were on patrol and not full force and got ambushed.

politicians are subject to politics, which they play no holds barred

I'm not going to second guess 1 RCR, I wasn't there, and they executed the mission with valour in the end

who am I to question Rick Nolan &  Frank Mellish ?  I worship them as the infantry gods that they were

Frank Mellish was an Airborne Regiment Patrol Pathfinder, best of the best

the greatest soldier I ever met

he advanced on foot into the forlorn hope and was cut down

trying to recover his best friends body, to keep it from the Taliban

Edited July 31, 2023 by Dougie93