Army Guy Posted June 30, 2023 Author Report Posted June 30, 2023 1 hour ago, ExFlyer said: Every government in the past 40 years has made promises and, like all political promises, has failed. Yes, we have gotten some new equipment but, we have also cut our military personnel numbers. Most (over 40%) of the DND (military and civilian) budget is for salaries. Does not leave much for procurement and operations. You are right, most Canadians have no idea what the military does for them every day. My 35 year tenure in SAR was not spent punching holes in the sky. I cannot b e precise but there are about or more than 1000 per year, country wide. As for social programs, that is what gets votes.... give freebies, get b]votes. I get it, politicians make promises then they go unfulfilled, and while it is to late for past PM's , Justin is in charge right now, and he like those before him have done little not just on the military side but most files, still HE made those choices, and does not get a free pass based on previous PM performances.. Well that would be a huge red flag, if you were the CDS...While i was in Wages where never the point of contention...Number 2 in the world at the time, not sure where we are today, but we are paid well when compared to other nations, but thats the tricky part , benefits always make a huge difference and most of ours have been canceled in order to give us these wages... things like medical and dental care for dependents, Single and PMQ were heavily subsidized, bonuses for living downtown, the list goes on and on...And today wages are competing with non related industries, or occupations...and the CF are not attractive, that and the thousands of other things wrong with DND. They normally do, until we need them then everyone points the fingers and ask that pointed question why were they not funded... just look a Russia right now, everyone thought their military was second to none, in training, equipment, etc... now a volunteer army is kicking their asses, something that used to keep NATO up at night , all because of corruption within it's ranks... 6 hours ago, TreeBeard said: Russia isn’t a threat to our allies? Based on what source. 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted July 1, 2023 Report Posted July 1, 2023 4 hours ago, Dougie93 said: pay no attention to the fact that your own "Progressive" cohorts are the ones selling you down the river to Beijing don't expect conservatives to save you from yourselves They're not my cohorts. I was saying zero truck nor trade with Beijing decades ago. Conservatives called me an anti capitalist commie for saying so. I expect conservatives are just as useless at saving anyone. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
ExFlyer Posted July 1, 2023 Report Posted July 1, 2023 12 hours ago, Army Guy said: I get it, politicians make promises then they go unfulfilled, and while it is to late for past PM's , Justin is in charge right now, and he like those before him have done little not just on the military side but most files, still HE made those choices, and does not get a free pass based on previous PM performances.. Well that would be a huge red flag, if you were the CDS...While i was in Wages where never the point of contention...Number 2 in the world at the time, not sure where we are today, but we are paid well when compared to other nations, but thats the tricky part , benefits always make a huge difference and most of ours have been canceled in order to give us these wages... things like medical and dental care for dependents, Single and PMQ were heavily subsidized, bonuses for living downtown, the list goes on and on...And today wages are competing with non related industries, or occupations...and the CF are not attractive, that and the thousands of other things wrong with DND. They normally do, until we need them then everyone points the fingers and ask that pointed question why were they not funded... just look a Russia right now, everyone thought their military was second to none, in training, equipment, etc... now a volunteer army is kicking their asses, something that used to keep NATO up at night , all because of corruption within it's ranks... Based on what source. Wages are still not a bone of contention. I was just saying that the largest expenditures in the DND was wages. Not just for the military personnel but including the civilians within as well. There are over 24,000 civilians in the DND. As wages went up in the Military, subsidies were lessened or dropped. When the lowest paid Corporal making about $70K, they are making pretty good money. Subsidies no longer can be justified. https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/benefits-military/pay-pension-benefits/pay/non-commissioned.html#corporal23 As for competing with non related industries, well, that depends on the trade and the industry. Many, but not all military trades relate to civilian industry but many do. I will say that a first year journeyman vehicle mechanic does not make $70Kper year, neither does a first year journeyman aircraft mechanic. And no clerk or dental assistant make $70K per year. Oh for sure, there are many things wrong with the DND. Firstly, the DND is there to support the Canadian Armed Forces. Both are subservient to the Canadian politicians and policy set out by reigning governments. DND supports (theoretically) what the Military is tasked to do. On the other hand, the Military can only do what the DND has given funding for. Conflicting interests for sure. For instance (sorry for too much detail), the government says to buy equipment. The DND gives military a budget but...the military cannot buy anything. The have to go to Public Services and Procurement Canada. PSPC has no budget. They get paid by the department that want to buy something . So, all the staff and the resources needed to make the procurement is paid by the department and out of the budget given to them for the procurement. So, DND pays PSPC for all the service and what all to buy the equipment. PSPC is not cheap hence the money available to buy is reduced by their expenses. Sorry for going off but there are many behind the scenes stuff that hinders the Military operations. Almost half it's budget is salary then they have to hire another department to buy equipment and things they need. Not much left to do the real job. Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
eyeball Posted July 1, 2023 Report Posted July 1, 2023 2 hours ago, Dougie93 said: both sides have their culture war favoured dictators Not me. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Army Guy Posted July 1, 2023 Author Report Posted July 1, 2023 2 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Wages are still not a bone of contention. I was just saying that the largest expenditures in the DND was wages. Not just for the military personnel but including the civilians within as well. There are over 24,000 civilians in the DND. As wages went up in the Military, subsidies were lessened or dropped. When the lowest paid Corporal making about $70K, they are making pretty good money. Subsidies no longer can be justified. https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/benefits-military/pay-pension-benefits/pay/non-commissioned.html#corporal23 As for competing with non related industries, well, that depends on the trade and the industry. Many, but not all military trades relate to civilian industry but many do. I will say that a first year journeyman vehicle mechanic does not make $70Kper year, neither does a first year journeyman aircraft mechanic. And no clerk or dental assistant make $70K per year. Oh for sure, there are many things wrong with the DND. Firstly, the DND is there to support the Canadian Armed Forces. Both are subservient to the Canadian politicians and policy set out by reigning governments. DND supports (theoretically) what the Military is tasked to do. On the other hand, the Military can only do what the DND has given funding for. Conflicting interests for sure. For instance (sorry for too much detail), the government says to buy equipment. The DND gives military a budget but...the military cannot buy anything. The have to go to Public Services and Procurement Canada. PSPC has no budget. They get paid by the department that want to buy something . So, all the staff and the resources needed to make the procurement is paid by the department and out of the budget given to them for the procurement. So, DND pays PSPC for all the service and what all to buy the equipment. PSPC is not cheap hence the money available to buy is reduced by their expenses. Sorry for going off but there are many behind the scenes stuff that hinders the Military operations. Almost half it's budget is salary then they have to hire another department to buy equipment and things they need. Not much left to do the real job. Wages are going to have to be looked at if the military wants to compete for workers, and along with that benefits...the direction they are looking at right now with hair length, color, piercings is not going to attract the numbers they want let alone need... many industries are already doing this, take a look at MacDonald's, now has a medical and dental plan grant it most of their employees still live at home, but who would have thought a minimum wage employee at a fast food place would have such attractive benefits. And to be fair about wage comparisons it still takes on average 4 years to make corporal, and that close to 70 k a year... I don't think there is to many in the military that agrees how we do procurement, it is to restrictive, it involves to many other department approvals, and to many hands in the pot, many nations have their own procurement offices within their structure, it is the military that decides what they want, what they want to compete in the trails, sets the parameters of the trails, specs that need to be met, The government approves the final amount that could be spent, and if they need more the next year it approves that dollar amount... The whole thing about kick backs , forcing a company to spend the equivalent in Canada, it needs to be built in Canada, it needs to employ x amount of Canadians, and the need to have x amount of built in Canada is what drives the price up... i remember the MLVW truck when it was built in Quebec, had the leaf springs built in the US, then taken apart and resembled in Quebec so they could say x amount was built and assembled in Canada, it was an extra cost that really added no value to the truck or project...then there is the LAV 6.0 we could not afford a totally brand new vehicle, so they cut the old LAV III in half, replaced the bottom portion with the LAV 6.0 chasis and welded the top portion onto the bottom portion... they had started production before the testing was done... resulting in lots of new vehs being sent back to the manufactures a couple of times to be modified...once again it made it more difficult than it had to be, wasted time and money, and cost more than expected if they had only purchased a totally new LAV 6.0 in the first place... not to mention they did not replace those lost in Afghanistan, just the ones that were left in service... which added to the problem of not buying enough on the original contract of LAVIII, meaning a mechanized Inf BN might have had 2 companies of LAV III to start with, the other companies used trucks or school busses....ya the bright yellow ones ...try and look professional when you dismount onto the battle field. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
ExFlyer Posted July 1, 2023 Report Posted July 1, 2023 56 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Wages are going to have to be looked at if the military wants to compete for workers, and along with that benefits...the direction they are looking at right now with hair length, color, piercings is not going to attract the numbers they want let alone need... many industries are already doing this, take a look at MacDonald's, now has a medical and dental plan grant it most of their employees still live at home, but who would have thought a minimum wage employee at a fast food place would have such attractive benefits. And to be fair about wage comparisons it still takes on average 4 years to make corporal, and that close to 70 k a year... I don't think there is to many in the military that agrees how we do procurement, it is to restrictive, it involves to many other department approvals, and to many hands in the pot, many nations have their own procurement offices within their structure, it is the military that decides what they want, what they want to compete in the trails, sets the parameters of the trails, specs that need to be met, The government approves the final amount that could be spent, and if they need more the next year it approves that dollar amount... The whole thing about kick backs , forcing a company to spend the equivalent in Canada, it needs to be built in Canada, it needs to employ x amount of Canadians, and the need to have x amount of built in Canada is what drives the price up... i remember the MLVW truck when it was built in Quebec, had the leaf springs built in the US, then taken apart and resembled in Quebec so they could say x amount was built and assembled in Canada, it was an extra cost that really added no value to the truck or project...then there is the LAV 6.0 we could not afford a totally brand new vehicle, so they cut the old LAV III in half, replaced the bottom portion with the LAV 6.0 chasis and welded the top portion onto the bottom portion... they had started production before the testing was done... resulting in lots of new vehs being sent back to the manufactures a couple of times to be modified...once again it made it more difficult than it had to be, wasted time and money, and cost more than expected if they had only purchased a totally new LAV 6.0 in the first place... not to mention they did not replace those lost in Afghanistan, just the ones that were left in service... which added to the problem of not buying enough on the original contract of LAVIII, meaning a mechanized Inf BN might have had 2 companies of LAV III to start with, the other companies used trucks or school busses....ya the bright yellow ones ...try and look professional when you dismount onto the battle field. Military wages and benefits are far better than even the public service nowadays. As I said, civilian vehicle mechanics do not make anywhere near the military does. For sure there is no secretary, parts person, secretary that will make $70k after 4 years. What is preventing recruitment is the stigma of being in the military. The military has always had medical and dental for it's members and insurance available for their families (yes pay for the family insurance but so does everyone else, with a few exceptions) Apprenticeships take 3 to 4 years before you become a journeyman and get full union pay too. In the Air Force, most get their Corporals at 3 years. The Military has no procurement departments or specialists. They tried to take over procurement some time ago but then the Military admitted it was too ominous, time consuming and expensive for them to take over that responsibility. I was waiting to jump to DND from PWGSC when it happened but alas, it failed. As for what the Military wants, the Military is in complete control of all the requirements, tests, evaluations and results and whether to accept them. They write them and they evaluate all the bidders and are full participants in all testing by themselves. Case in point, the Maritime helicopter project still does not have all the contracted helicopter even after 14 years.There are outstanding issues that do not meet the contract. Same gores for the Fixed Wing Search and Rescue replacement aircraft.It is more than 5 years behind in delivery schedule. The military is not accepting the delivery. Public Works and other departments are present as observers but cannot interfere or rate anything. Yes, regional benefits are part of the procurement process but they have been for many many decades. If the Army got POS for vehicle delivery, it is the Army that decided acceptance criteria. Their requirements, their acceptance requirements and their eventual delivery requirements. None of the other departments can and would influence the requirements of the actual vehicles. Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
Army Guy Posted July 1, 2023 Author Report Posted July 1, 2023 1 hour ago, ExFlyer said: Military wages and benefits are far better than even the public service nowadays. As I said, civilian vehicle mechanics do not make anywhere near the military does. For sure there is no secretary, parts person, secretary that will make $70k after 4 years. What is preventing recruitment is the stigma of being in the military. The military has always had medical and dental for it's members and insurance available for their families (yes pay for the family insurance but so does everyone else, with a few exceptions) Apprenticeships take 3 to 4 years before you become a journeyman and get full union pay too. In the Air Force, most get their Corporals at 3 years. The Military has no procurement departments or specialists. They tried to take over procurement some time ago but then the Military admitted it was too ominous, time consuming and expensive for them to take over that responsibility. I was waiting to jump to DND from PWGSC when it happened but alas, it failed. As for what the Military wants, the Military is in complete control of all the requirements, tests, evaluations and results and whether to accept them. They write them and they evaluate all the bidders and are full participants in all testing by themselves. Case in point, the Maritime helicopter project still does not have all the contracted helicopter even after 14 years.There are outstanding issues that do not meet the contract. Same gores for the Fixed Wing Search and Rescue replacement aircraft.It is more than 5 years behind in delivery schedule. The military is not accepting the delivery. Public Works and other departments are present as observers but cannot interfere or rate anything. Yes, regional benefits are part of the procurement process but they have been for many many decades. If the Army got POS for vehicle delivery, it is the Army that decided acceptance criteria. Their requirements, their acceptance requirements and their eventual delivery requirements. None of the other departments can and would influence the requirements of the actual vehicles. Some of the civil service do not make military wages, but during the strike the media was quoting the average civil servant making 6 figures... yes medical and dental has always been there, but so has cheap housing, family medical and dental care provided by military doctors and dentists, the Canex had subsidized goods, and food, and while in Germany every adult received a cheque at the end of the year as a profit sharing thing. We also had our own schools and teachers, along with all school supplies provided by the military, and many others benefits that we don't have today that could attract young recruits.. i mean how many do you think long purple hair will get them...want to attract more people, need to offer them something no one else is... plus many other things there are very few over seas postings, and those we do have are for selective trades and ranks...lack of modern equipment is also a draw back Stigma is getting worse meaning the new direction is not attracting right people.. and they are loosing more than they are attracting...with some units down a full 1/3 of their T&OE, they estimate a full 16 k short, and thats what they are telling the public, in reality it is far more... Getting procurement specialist is just a matter of education, and training it's not mission impossible, other nations have done it ... and how big of a step is it from being an item manger/ Project manger/ Trade specialist who see over multi million dollar contracts through PWGSC all the time for parts , weapons', etc etc... Yes military does test the stuffing out of everything , and it does pick it's preferred equipment, but that is in no way the stuff they are going to receive, there are much more priorities than being the best equipment available. Like can it be built in Canada, how many jobs is it going to create, how much is the offsets (Bribes)going to be, what political gains are to be had... While i may only be a grunt i have taken part in testing and trailing of military equipment, weapons' evals, tac vests, frag vests, winter Xcross skis, snow shoes, etc i know small potatoes compared to some major buys, but the testing process is the same, and very seldom did the preferred equipment get chosen...a great example of that would be the F-35, it was the air forces chosen aircraft, it beat hands down all the competition, for quality and price... it was dumped becasue the grand master did not like it...As the LAV 6.0 it was not what the army wanted, what they wanted was a brand new veh.. what they got was half of what they wanted. So the military is not in full control, the government gets final say... As for the LAV 6.0 it was what the government finally agreed upon, the army just smiled and was glad to have something not worn out from Afghanistan like the LAV III were...Do you think the air force would have settled on F-18 E/F for a fighter replacement ...the Air force had already said no to anything but the f-35 in the media...not sure how that went but someone should be studying that transaction for future projects... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
ExFlyer Posted July 2, 2023 Report Posted July 2, 2023 17 hours ago, Army Guy said: Some of the civil service do not make military wages, but during the strike the media was quoting the average civil servant making 6 figures... yes medical and dental has always been there, but so has cheap housing, family medical and dental care provided by military doctors and dentists, the Canex had subsidized goods, and food, and while in Germany every adult received a cheque at the end of the year as a profit sharing thing. We also had our own schools and teachers, along with all school supplies provided by the military, and many others benefits that we don't have today that could attract young recruits.. i mean how many do you think long purple hair will get them...want to attract more people, need to offer them something no one else is... plus many other things there are very few over seas postings, and those we do have are for selective trades and ranks...lack of modern equipment is also a draw back Stigma is getting worse meaning the new direction is not attracting right people.. and they are loosing more than they are attracting...with some units down a full 1/3 of their T&OE, they estimate a full 16 k short, and thats what they are telling the public, in reality it is far more... Getting procurement specialist is just a matter of education, and training it's not mission impossible, other nations have done it ... and how big of a step is it from being an item manger/ Project manger/ Trade specialist who see over multi million dollar contracts through PWGSC all the time for parts , weapons', etc etc... Yes military does test the stuffing out of everything , and it does pick it's preferred equipment, but that is in no way the stuff they are going to receive, there are much more priorities than being the best equipment available. Like can it be built in Canada, how many jobs is it going to create, how much is the offsets (Bribes)going to be, what political gains are to be had... While i may only be a grunt i have taken part in testing and trailing of military equipment, weapons' evals, tac vests, frag vests, winter Xcross skis, snow shoes, etc i know small potatoes compared to some major buys, but the testing process is the same, and very seldom did the preferred equipment get chosen...a great example of that would be the F-35, it was the air forces chosen aircraft, it beat hands down all the competition, for quality and price... it was dumped becasue the grand master did not like it...As the LAV 6.0 it was not what the army wanted, what they wanted was a brand new veh.. what they got was half of what they wanted. So the military is not in full control, the government gets final say... As for the LAV 6.0 it was what the government finally agreed upon, the army just smiled and was glad to have something not worn out from Afghanistan like the LAV III were...Do you think the air force would have settled on F-18 E/F for a fighter replacement ...the Air force had already said no to anything but the f-35 in the media...not sure how that went but someone should be studying that transaction for future projects... Look, we can go on and on. Firstly, we can easily compare military and public service wages. First of all, the public service has its "jobs" classified into several hundred wage classifications. The Military does not. https://www.tbs-sct.canada.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/rates-taux-eng.asp https://www.tbs-sct.canada.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/rates-taux-eng.asp I have been in both situations and can tell you, that the public service has very few jobs where you make $70K after 3 to 4 years. The public service pay is very restrictive unless you apply for and win a competition for the next level. Canex stopped being a pure Military discount store back in the 70's. Communities and businesses around the bases complained about unfair competition and Canex had to be comparable. Military did have schools and rec centers and arenas and even golf courses but the same situations arose with the communities and they all opened up to the surrounding communities back in the early 80's. PMQ's were reasonably priced rentals but there were never enough hence, members that could not or did not want to live on base were given PLD to subsidize the cost on the market rental. The PLD differed depending where you were posted. Of course, if you decided to buy a house, you did not get PLD. We have not had an overseas base since early 90's when Lahr closed and yes, those posted there got extra pay for being there but, today, if posted overseas (with family) the members also get extra pay and free schooling for the kids and all health benefits as well as subsidized housing. I had 6 families in Italy and 3 in England during the Coromorant program and they lived very well and their kids going to international schools was a real benefit. Things are not as desperate as you make them out to be. Recruiting is a problem but, really, it has been a problem for about 15 or so years. Nothing new there and well, wages are not the answer. The stigma is the military itself. It has not exactly gotten great press in the past decade. Setting up a procurement department is not as simple as just saying other countries do it. Other countries started with it and never left their system. It is not a quick or even economical or beneficial to become your own procurement department. Can you imagine the public outcry with that? Oversight will have to be done and will be intense and if you think procurement will be quicker, well, sorry to tell you, you are very wrong. You just do not grow procurement officers and engineers and contract specialists.... and of course, what processes and procedures do you follow? The 30,000 page supply manual? As I said, DND tried but the cost was too ominous and they shut it down. If you are aware of the testing evaluations and such of equipment, you should be aware that what you receive is what met your technical and contractual requirements and won the competition. You as an evaluator are only one point on an evaluation team and the item that gets delivered is the one that won the completion. So, you may not have liked it but enough of the other team members did. FYI, "Canada is buying 88 F-35 stealth fighter jets in a $14.2 billion deal announced Monday by the Ottawa government. The first of the US-made planes are expected to enter the Royal Canadian Air Force in 2026 with the full fleet being operational by 2033 or 2034," The LAV 6 obviously met the technical requirement and was evaluated by the Army team and deemed acceptable and that is why you have them. I do not speak without some knowledge. As you know, I spent 35 years in, did time in SAR from coast to coast, did several NDHQ tours including major crown project and retired to work in PWGSC in procurement as well as Maritime Helicopter procurement. I am Air Force through and through and have gotten to understand the intricacies of military procurement. All in all, the Military does get what it contracts for using the technical requirements it writes. Extraneous demands from other departments are a P off and only add cost to the contract but they in no way diminish, reduce or delete and of the the requirements or evaluation the military does. Other department do not even sit in the evaluation rooms when evaluation is going on. Some lawyers and some PWGSC persons are called in when there are contractual or procedural questions but they do not see the evaluation till it is over. Facts of the matter is, the DND has a budget and it has to pay for everything the DND and military wants, needs and is tasked to do. They decide what they can afford and when. A total in house decision. Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
I am Groot Posted July 2, 2023 Report Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, ExFlyer said: As for what the Military wants, the Military is in complete control of all the requirements, tests, evaluations and results and whether to accept them. They write them and they evaluate all the bidders and are full participants in all testing by themselves. Case in point, the Maritime helicopter project still does not have all the contracted helicopter even after 14 years.There are outstanding issues that do not meet the contract. Same gores for the Fixed Wing Search and Rescue replacement aircraft.It is more than 5 years behind in delivery schedule. The military is not accepting the delivery. Public Works and other departments are present as observers but cannot interfere or rate anything. Yes, regional benefits are part of the procurement process but they have been for many many decades. If the Army got POS for vehicle delivery, it is the Army that decided acceptance criteria. Their requirements, their acceptance requirements and their eventual delivery requirements. None of the other departments can and would influence the requirements of the actual vehicles. That is one of the most naive statements I've ever seen written here. You really think the politicians just leave it up to the military to buy what they want? You think it's a coincidence the winning bidders seem to usually have facilities/plants in government ridings? I have a vague memory of a truck the military wound up buying failing testing repeatedly at the military's testing facility. The government (Mulroney, I believe) shut down the testing facility and sent the truck to a private sector American facility where (Surprise!) it passed and was then purchased. Can't remember but it might have been the Iltis... Edited July 2, 2023 by I am Groot Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
ExFlyer Posted July 2, 2023 Report Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) 22 hours ago, I am Groot said: That is one of the most naive statements I've ever seen written here. You really think the politicians just leave it up to the military to buy what they want? You think it's a coincidence the winning bidders seem to usually have facilities/plants in government ridings? I have a vague memory of a truck the military wound up buying failing testing repeatedly at the military's testing facility. The government (Mulroney, I believe) shut down the testing facility and sent the truck to a private sector American facility where (Surprise!) it passed and was then purchased. Can't remember but it might have been the Iltis... Nothing naive at all. I am very aware of the procurement procedures and process having worked them for a number of years. I can link the documents and processes and procedures if you wish to intelligently debate instead of making emotional unsubstantiated claims. What I am saying is the RFP, Request for Proposal and specifications are written by the Military. The evaluation of the bid are all done by military personnel. The acceptance and testing of the winning product are all done and supervised by military personnel. I did say that there will be additional contract demands by various departments (you wanna say politician? OK, I won't argue that) but, they are in addition to the contract and not in anyway superseding or altering the technical requirements or testing and evaluation plans. As for the shut down of the vehicle test facility in Ottawa, I cannot remember the designation (EDIT: LETE , Land Engineering and Testing Establishment) but I do not live far from there, it was a Military decision to shut it down and move testing to the field. The facility now belongs to the RCMP, primarily as a storage facility. The Army, Navy, Air Force, not government chooses the testing facilities. To be a bit more clear, Canada has decided that cost of upgrading test facilities for new equipment far outweigh the benefits. It is far to expensive to modernize the aircraft test facilitates for the F-35 than doing the testing on American test facilities. Same goes for newly developed Army resources. Now, the new ships are a different issue altogether. Our home grown warships have already quadrupled the cost of manufacture (and exponentially rising again) and there is no one on earth, even Canada, that has test facilities so, we will cough up for that. I do not speak about this unknowingly. I do have lots of experience within this world of Military procurement. Edited July 3, 2023 by ExFlyer Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
Army Guy Posted July 2, 2023 Author Report Posted July 2, 2023 2 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Look, we can go on and on. Firstly, we can easily compare military and public service wages. First of all, the public service has its "jobs" classified into several hundred wage classifications. The Military does not. https://www.tbs-sct.canada.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/rates-taux-eng.asp https://www.tbs-sct.canada.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/rates-taux-eng.asp I have been in both situations and can tell you, that the public service has very few jobs where you make $70K after 3 to 4 years. The public service pay is very restrictive unless you apply for and win a competition for the next level. Canex stopped being a pure Military discount store back in the 70's. Communities and businesses around the bases complained about unfair competition and Canex had to be comparable. Military did have schools and rec centers and arenas and even golf courses but the same situations arose with the communities and they all opened up to the surrounding communities back in the early 80's. PMQ's were reasonably priced rentals but there were never enough hence, members that could not or did not want to live on base were given PLD to subsidize the cost on the market rental. The PLD differed depending where you were posted. Of course, if you decided to buy a house, you did not get PLD. We have not had an overseas base since early 90's when Lahr closed and yes, those posted there got extra pay for being there but, today, if posted overseas (with family) the members also get extra pay and free schooling for the kids and all health benefits as well as subsidized housing. I had 6 families in Italy and 3 in England during the Coromorant program and they lived very well and their kids going to international schools was a real benefit. Things are not as desperate as you make them out to be. I looked at a few and can easily find public service jobs that pay more than 70 k after 4 years, fire fighter, RCMP officer, both are more than 75 k a year. During the strike the media had said the mean avg of public worker sector is over 6 figures. When i went to work in Maint company , CFB Gagetown Hvy equipment ( mechs that worked on trucks, and armored vehs maintainers were making more than 75 k, and it went up from there depending on additional quals...and since we were on a ARMY base most were hvy mechs...now did the admin or supply guys make that much, no but the last time i checked PG ( buyers) workers were making close to that 70 k, with the PG 04 (head buyer)making well past that... I have said in my opening remarks that the military's wages are decent, and i have also worked in the public sector after retiring, and not once did i complain about the wages i was making... My entire point here was in order to become more competitive Military needs to relook at at a lot of areas, wages being one of them, Benefits as well, considering most benefits we used to have have been canceled due to cuts...Yes Military has an image problem, but to say that is what is causing the recruitment crises is some what short sighted...when other issues having been screaming for a long time, hard to get excited about the job with 40 plus year old fighters, ships, and tanks that we are to cheap to fix... No where did i say things were desperate, what the Military has said is there is a "crises" ( CDS words) in recruiting with more than 16,000 vacant positions, (thats what they are telling the public) in reality I'm sure it is much higher...judging what still serving friends of mine are saying...There are many solutions to fix this problem over all, learning to be more inclusive is not going to address all of its woes. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted July 2, 2023 Author Report Posted July 2, 2023 3 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Setting up a procurement department is not as simple as just saying other countries do it. Other countries started with it and never left their system. It is not a quick or even economical or beneficial to become your own procurement department. Can you imagine the public outcry with that? Oversight will have to be done and will be intense and if you think procurement will be quicker, well, sorry to tell you, you are very wrong. You just do not grow procurement officers and engineers and contract specialists.... and of course, what processes and procedures do you follow? The 30,000 page supply manual? As I said, DND tried but the cost was too ominous and they shut it down. If you are aware of the testing evaluations and such of equipment, you should be aware that what you receive is what met your technical and contractual requirements and won the competition. You as an evaluator are only one point on an evaluation team and the item that gets delivered is the one that won the completion. So, you may not have liked it but enough of the other team members did. FYI, "Canada is buying 88 F-35 stealth fighter jets in a $14.2 billion deal announced Monday by the Ottawa government. The first of the US-made planes are expected to enter the Royal Canadian Air Force in 2026 with the full fleet being operational by 2033 or 2034," The LAV 6 obviously met the technical requirement and was evaluated by the Army team and deemed acceptable and that is why you have them. I do not speak without some knowledge. As you know, I spent 35 years in, did time in SAR from coast to coast, did several NDHQ tours including major crown project and retired to work in PWGSC in procurement as well as Maritime Helicopter procurement. I am Air Force through and through and have gotten to understand the intricacies of military procurement. All in all, the Military does get what it contracts for using the technical requirements it writes. Extraneous demands from other departments are a P off and only add cost to the contract but they in no way diminish, reduce or delete and of the the requirements or evaluation the military does. Other department do not even sit in the evaluation rooms when evaluation is going on. Some lawyers and some PWGSC persons are called in when there are contractual or procedural questions but they do not see the evaluation till it is over. Facts of the matter is, the DND has a budget and it has to pay for everything the DND and military wants, needs and is tasked to do. They decide what they can afford and when. A total in house decision. Does it have to be simple, or easy, or do we just continue using a system that is at the very least slow as F****, taking 10 to 15 years to purchase a service pistol is unrealistic...and still today there are no new pistols...this is a few simple case of taking it to the extremes... Perhaps what our current system has shown is this system has failed and needs to be updated...the forces have gone through many systems changes in the past, including revamping our entire supply system, from it's operating systems to the way it does business, and if we can change the entire system we can certainly change the procurement system on a federal level... The forces have grown trades from scratch before why is this an mission imposable, I have know some supply friends that have gone on to work in PGWSC, working with completely different departments like coast guard or fisheries and they seemed to transition smoothly, still working there, doing quit well... you as a SAR tech seemed to be fine with the transition...i don't see the problem...Infact we already have item mangers and project mangers who get training and move on to keep our logistical tail running , buying parts and equipment when needed... Oversight is still going to be in the government hands they are going to approve the funding, they are going to tell Military what they can spend, all thats going to happen is they won't be choosing the equipment just the dollars... F-35 is being purchased...but lets go back to 2015, what is it that justin said...how much did the military have to say on that matter...the entire project was thrown back to the starting stages...and who gave approval this purchase of the F-35...The PM did...The Air force wanted the F-35 all along...And while this might not happen to all procurement projects it does with all the major ones.... The LAV 6.0 was rushed into service, it still had not undergone testing or evaluations, that happened afetr the fact and the results were sending dozens of LAVs back to manufacture for new modifications...like brakes were not large enough to handle the new weight resulting in many brake failures, tires could not handle the new weight, and were complete worn out after 1000 kms, cracks in hulls, so many things had gone wrong that the manufacture sent teams down to be included in the testing process... and still the continued pumping them out of the manufacture... This project had already been approved a dollar amount, then canceled some of that funding was used on another project, the government refused to cover additional costs, hence the cutting in half the veh in order to make it work... It was never in the tech specs to just cut the veh in half and glue them back the original intention was to replace vehs that were abused in Afghanistan with New vehs... atleast that was what we were being told, as 2 RCR was the testing unit for the LAV...what we got was just an example of what not to do in a project... To suggest that government does not influence major projects is false... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
ExFlyer Posted July 2, 2023 Report Posted July 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: I looked at a few and can easily find public service jobs that pay more than 70 k after 4 years, fire fighter, RCMP officer, both are more than 75 k a year. During the strike the media had said the mean avg of public worker sector is over 6 figures. When i went to work in Maint company , CFB Gagetown Hvy equipment ( mechs that worked on trucks, and armored vehs maintainers were making more than 75 k, and it went up from there depending on additional quals...and since we were on a ARMY base most were hvy mechs...now did the admin or supply guys make that much, no but the last time i checked PG ( buyers) workers were making close to that 70 k, with the PG 04 (head buyer)making well past that... I have said in my opening remarks that the military's wages are decent, and i have also worked in the public sector after retiring, and not once did i complain about the wages i was making... My entire point here was in order to become more competitive Military needs to relook at at a lot of areas, wages being one of them, Benefits as well, considering most benefits we used to have have been canceled due to cuts...Yes Military has an image problem, but to say that is what is causing the recruitment crises is some what short sighted...when other issues having been screaming for a long time, hard to get excited about the job with 40 plus year old fighters, ships, and tanks that we are to cheap to fix... No where did i say things were desperate, what the Military has said is there is a "crises" ( CDS words) in recruiting with more than 16,000 vacant positions, (thats what they are telling the public) in reality I'm sure it is much higher...judging what still serving friends of mine are saying...There are many solutions to fix this problem over all, learning to be more inclusive is not going to address all of its woes. As I said this can go on and on. Can you really think that a fire fighter or RCMP officer is equivalent of a clerk, dental assistant, supply tech, postal clerk, traffic tech or a myriad of other military jobs?? The media makes many claims,much without research, validity or fact. I have given you the authoritative inks. Yes, you can make more than $70K per year but,it is if you apply for the next level, pass the requirements and get accepted after interviews. Promotion and advancement in the public service is not merit based as it is with the military, it is on qualification and competition. I am sorry, I did not read or comprehend that you worked in the public sector, not public service but public sector?? As for a PG4, they are not head buyers. The PG classification goes up to PG 6 and if that person wrote competitions, had the qualifications, won the competition and passed the interviews, then yes, they make $75K. As I have said, there is no merit promotions in the public service, all is based on competition. As for old equipment, I hope you do not think that you are on a new aircraft next time you go on vacation or the city bus is new. Maintenance on equipment is what it is. Getting parts and persons to do the work is an issue but not the issue. The information I have given you is correct. I am not going to argue with what you think the army needs but clearly it is not getting what you think it needs or deserves and most importantly, civilian people are not buying into it either, hence no recruits. If there are many solutions, I am sure someone within has looked at them from an organizational and economic point. Or are the solutions just talk from the table at the mess? I also have many friends still in as well as those from my public service tenure. The point is, without knowing what is doable and what is viable and the reasons for each, it is all talk. As I said, I have extensive experience in both worlds (not Army specific) and can speak with some expertise. The military "crisis" is lack of interest in the military therefore no one wants in. I am not sure pay (and a military person gets all benefits, health, dental, pension etc) and whatever equipment you think they should have are enough to attract recruits. I really do not know what it is you are trying to convey anymore. Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
ExFlyer Posted July 2, 2023 Report Posted July 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: Does it have to be simple, or easy, or do we just continue using a system that is at the very least slow as F****, taking 10 to 15 years to purchase a service pistol is unrealistic...and still today there are no new pistols...this is a few simple case of taking it to the extremes... Perhaps what our current system has shown is this system has failed and needs to be updated...the forces have gone through many systems changes in the past, including revamping our entire supply system, from it's operating systems to the way it does business, and if we can change the entire system we can certainly change the procurement system on a federal level... The forces have grown trades from scratch before why is this an mission imposable, I have know some supply friends that have gone on to work in PGWSC, working with completely different departments like coast guard or fisheries and they seemed to transition smoothly, still working there, doing quit well... you as a SAR tech seemed to be fine with the transition...i don't see the problem...Infact we already have item mangers and project mangers who get training and move on to keep our logistical tail running , buying parts and equipment when needed... Oversight is still going to be in the government hands they are going to approve the funding, they are going to tell Military what they can spend, all thats going to happen is they won't be choosing the equipment just the dollars... F-35 is being purchased...but lets go back to 2015, what is it that justin said...how much did the military have to say on that matter...the entire project was thrown back to the starting stages...and who gave approval this purchase of the F-35...The PM did...The Air force wanted the F-35 all along...And while this might not happen to all procurement projects it does with all the major ones.... The LAV 6.0 was rushed into service, it still had not undergone testing or evaluations, that happened afetr the fact and the results were sending dozens of LAVs back to manufacture for new modifications...like brakes were not large enough to handle the new weight resulting in many brake failures, tires could not handle the new weight, and were complete worn out after 1000 kms, cracks in hulls, so many things had gone wrong that the manufacture sent teams down to be included in the testing process... and still the continued pumping them out of the manufacture... This project had already been approved a dollar amount, then canceled some of that funding was used on another project, the government refused to cover additional costs, hence the cutting in half the veh in order to make it work... It was never in the tech specs to just cut the veh in half and glue them back the original intention was to replace vehs that were abused in Afghanistan with New vehs... atleast that was what we were being told, as 2 RCR was the testing unit for the LAV...what we got was just an example of what not to do in a project... To suggest that government does not influence major projects is false... I cannot begin to tell you why it has taken so long to buy a pistol but what I can say, once the RFP has been released and companies have put in their bids, the entire thing rests with the department affected (Army) and their staff. For sure there are very specific military trades. There has to be and there is no argument about that. The F-35 procurement has been through many governments. We have been paying millions of dollars into the development costs for decades. Harper got kicked for it and stopped paying then Trudeau started again then got public flack and slowed down but did not stop development payments. The F-35 development itself was way behind and every customer just had to sit and wait. The LAV 6 program was in the hands of the Army team. What and how and when and where was under their total control. Cannot speak to what their issues were or are, only the Army can answer that. cancelled, funding shuffle, is the Army decision. Just to pass along, if money has been allocated for major crown project, it cannot be used for something else. It must be cancelled and only the department can do that. As far as what you think they wanted and what they got, very often something called scope creep affects the end result. Meaning the military plays with the specs and the end result may not satisfy all parties and all initial requiremnts. Sort of like a camel being horse designed by committee. People get transferred in and out of project and like a dog, they all P on the hydrant (specs) to mark their territory. What they wanted in the beginning may not be what they want now. Seen that happen too often while in the Military and while in PWGCS Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
SpankyMcFarland Posted July 2, 2023 Report Posted July 2, 2023 Modern megafires are becoming a strategic problem for North America. I’d say our neighbours to the south would be grateful if we could a better job of addressing them first. Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
I am Groot Posted July 2, 2023 Report Posted July 2, 2023 6 hours ago, ExFlyer said: To be a bit more clear, Canada has decided that cost of upgrading test facilities for new equipment far outweigh the benefits. It is far to expensive to modernize the aircraft test facilitates for the F-35 than doing the testing on American test facilities. Same goes for newly developed Army resources. Now, the new ships are a different issue altogether. Our home grown warships have already quadrupled the cost of manufacture (and exponentially rising again) and there is no one on earth, even Canada, that has test facilities so, we will cough up for that. I do not speak about this unknowingly. I do have lots of experience within this world of Military procurement. And at what level? You'll get orders coming down from above, FROM the military, but you do not know how they got them or what political interference informed their decision-making. Yes, our new warships are vastly more expensive than they were supposed to be and way behind schedule. They also fail to meet the original specifications for the RFP in rather substantial ways. Just to start with, only proven designs were to be submitted. These were not proven designs as they'd never been built before. The ships, according to an Australian study, do not meet the speed and range requirement as set out in the RFP either. Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
ExFlyer Posted July 2, 2023 Report Posted July 2, 2023 46 minutes ago, I am Groot said: And at what level? You'll get orders coming down from above, FROM the military, but you do not know how they got them or what political interference informed their decision-making. Yes, our new warships are vastly more expensive than they were supposed to be and way behind schedule. They also fail to meet the original specifications for the RFP in rather substantial ways. Just to start with, only proven designs were to be submitted. These were not proven designs as they'd never been built before. The ships, according to an Australian study, do not meet the speed and range requirement as set out in the RFP either. I have no idea what you are trying to say? I hope you realize that the DND is a ministry of the government and military is a department within. The military changes priorities all the time ,depending on what taskings are given. Once RFP's are released an bids presented, they are valid for a particular time, more often than not, 90 days. Evaluations of those bids must be done and accepted in that time frame because after that, the financial and delivery commitments are cancelled. Any dithering only jeopardizes the offer. As for political interference, as I said before, the technical aspects remain valid or, if needed, changed for new requirements but then the price increases. The political aspects are those that various departments have mandated and they do not affect the technical requirements. I can assure you there are no politicians, political staff or other departments in the technical evaluation rooms.The IRB's (Industrial Regional Benifit) offered are evaluated by the departments affected and the Military does not see them Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
BeaverFever Posted July 2, 2023 Report Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) On 6/30/2023 at 6:24 PM, Dougie93 said: pay no attention to the fact that your own "Progressive" cohorts are the ones selling you down the river to Beijing don't expect conservatives to save you from yourselves The right has sold out to Beijing plenty. It was the right who lead the change during the massive rush to outsource manufacturing jobs overseas to places like China in the first place And despite all the bluster and rhetoric ypu don’t see the right doing much different than the left regarding China policy. The reason is that western capitalists are heavily invested in China and they exert a lot of influence on both parties to leave their golden goose alone. The communist party of China has figured out how to use capitalist greed as weapon against capitalist countries. As the saying goes a capitalist will sell you the rope you plan to hang him with, even when he knows what you intend to do with it. Edited July 3, 2023 by BeaverFever 2 1 Quote
August1991 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 On 6/30/2023 at 11:23 AM, Aristides said: In 1960 our military spending was 4% of GDP, it didn't drop below 2% until 1988. It's disturbing to see Canada so reluctant to increase its capability as world wide tensions increase. What worldwide "tensions"? ==== Aristides, I think that we should hire people to check the environment - not what the Chinese or Russians are doing. Quote
August1991 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 On 6/30/2023 at 7:31 PM, Army Guy said: What did WE do in Afghanistan...Not everyone likes to hear this but here goes. it was our soldiers that sacrificed everything, their blood , sweat, tears... Our mission in Afghanistan had nothing to do with NATO. ==== Some 100 Canadian soldiers died in Afghanistan. Their mission was different. You know it I know it. 1 Quote
August1991 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 As you English say, why in God's good name are we still a member of an organisation designed to defeat the Soviet Union - a regime that no longer exists. ===== I once favoured NATO membership. I wanted to ensure the Witch was dead. America has become the Witch. Quote
ExFlyer Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 16 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: Modern megafires are becoming a strategic problem for North America. I’d say our neighbours to the south would be grateful if we could a better job of addressing them first. And your suggestion to do better than we are doing now to suppress forest fires?? The US has fires as well https://www.fireweatheravalanche.org/fire/ Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
ExFlyer Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 8 hours ago, August1991 said: As you English say, why in God's good name are we still a member of an organisation designed to defeat the Soviet Union - a regime that no longer exists. ===== I once favoured NATO membership. I wanted to ensure the Witch was dead. America has become the Witch. USSR - Soviet Union - Russia, same, same different name. In fact, Putiin is more troublesome than Khrushchev ever was. Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 14 hours ago, BeaverFever said: The right has sold out to Beijing plenty. It was the right who lead the change during the massive rush to outsource manufacturing jobs overseas to places like China in the first place And despite all the bluster and rhetoric ypu don’t see the right doing much different than the left regarding China policy. The reason is that western capitalists are heavily invested in China and they exert a lot of influence on both parties to leave their golden goose alone. The communist party of China has figured out how to use capitalist greed as weapon against capitalist countries. As the saying goes a capitalist will sell you the rope you plan to hang him with, even when he knows what you intend to do with it. straw man you conflate the Neoliberal project with conservatism Quote
BeaverFever Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 3 hours ago, Dougie93 said: straw man you conflate the Neoliberal project with conservatism Only because conservatives themselves have for the past 40 years Quote
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