Direct citizen power: referendums

[myata]

The political system in the country cannot be trusted. The system was set up from the outset with zero accountability for politicians and the process of degradation and ethical decay has run its course. Political shell of the country has no real allegiance to the population, does not feel responsibility to it, believes being naturally entitled to govern with no feedback and is venturing more and more into changing it, the population to its needs. Examples abound.

If the process isn't reversed, a third world status can be a real possibility for the country in the medium term. The entrenched system has been envisioned and staunchly avoids and resists any meaningful change, including in transparency, accountability and responsibility, reform of institutions and electoral reform. The status quo does not leave many good options, but direct citizen power through referendums is one of them.

On essential matters we should be able to have referendums many of them. That could invigorate and bring back to life real democracy in the country. Or bury it for unknown time. The status quo is a dead end of democracy, that much is becoming clear.

Edited June 14, 2023 by myata

[Zeitgeist]

I agree that we need more direct democracy.  The PM in Canada is too powerful.  The Supreme Court’ gets appointed by the PM without serious vetting.  The Canadian system in its current form is too undemocratic.  Even the Governor General who is supposed to be a final check on power is jus another Prime Minister appointment.  The country is run by the PMO, including unaccountable advisors like Telford and Butts before her.  The PM whips the MP’s into agreement or tosses them out of Caucus.

Even Constitutional rights are routinely abrogated, and this is done with the blessing of an owned courts system.  If the government introduces martial law, any subsequent inquiry will be led by a government-appointment.  Same is happening on China interference.  Everyone with knowledge of how Parliament works knows this.  The opposition parties will routinely uphold this arrangement if it protects their positions, which is the case for the NDP.

Many Canadians have learned just how powerless they really are. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

Canadian system is a formal copycat of the formal British one, without its essence and soul: independence of MPs, and generally, centuries long tradition of independence and democracy. We just have seen it in post-Brexit and pandemic: collectively, MPs can and do check and control majority MP. In Canada it's totally, exactly the opposite and don't even begin about Justine, every majority PM rules with an iron fist, no checks of any kind. Canada, in essence and truth, is no longer a representative democracy because supposed representatives are nothing more than slaves and employees of their central office. Even an appearance of democracy does not hold that can be seen in multiple examples of so called "inquiries" that answer few questions and change nothing.

The system is well-entrenched and has no desire or will to effect any meaningful change. It's smug and happy exactly where it is and needs no change at all. So it tries to instill an illusion of a perfect democracy where change is not wanted (and actually, anathema) that is patently false. And that leaves few options to the public: to coast to the point where third world condition of till democracy and public administration will inevitably spread to the social life and economy; or insist on the necessary change, even against the resistance of the entrenched political shell. Referendums could be one effective instrument to that end.

Edited June 14, 2023 by myata

[myata]

"There are also monthly ticket at a cost of 16.75 euros (metro only), 30.00 (all means of transport urban area) and 40.00 euros (all means of transport metropolitan area). - https://www.portugal.net/en/lisbon/transport-lisbon/

Lisbon, the capital of Portugal.

Wine in a store begins at 1.99. Cheese, 2.99 a block. Beer, 1.50 draft, open air kiosk, glass for Heaven's sake not plastic. Makes sense, no?

Have you seen the prices in Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa? This is why the destination for the country is Mexico North. No it just can't be anything other why would it? If every little bump, in any line of business, public or private (mobile rates, Internet) knows exactly one model of doing business: get a monopoly and ding-ding it dry every so many months without adding any services. Because you can... right?

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 6/14/2023 at 12:39 PM, myata said:

Canadian system is a formal copycat of the formal British one, without its essence and soul: independence of MPs, and generally, centuries long tradition of independence and democracy.

In both countries PMs and their unelected advisers have become far more powerful. What model of direct democracy would you propose we follow? 
 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[myata]

12 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

In both countries PMs and their unelected advisers have become far more powerful.

True. But in the UK there's centuries or practice and tradition to hold back the tide (not just saying, we can observe it in real time) while in Canada there's nothing. Nada, zilch. Some inspirational chit-chat long gone and tulips grown on it.

12 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

What model of direct democracy would you propose we follow? 

I would begin with opening the political system via some form of proportional representation. To expect that a modern society can be accurately and effectively represented by a monstrous corporation run singlehandedly from often unelected office is beyond naive. We can have referendums on principal issues as well, such as accommodation of minority groups, government checks and entitlements, etc.

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, myata said:

 

I would begin with opening the political system via some form of proportional representation. To expect that a modern society can be accurately and effectively represented by a monstrous corporation run singlehandedly from often unelected office is beyond naive. We can have referendums on principal issues as well, such as accommodation of minority groups, government checks and entitlements, etc.

Well I thought your opening post was susceptible to hyperbole, I feel like you've landed on a better focus on the problem with this paragraph and the proposed solution.

In the medium term though, proportional representation would give us years if not decades of the same kind of center left government we have now.

The other thing I'd like to say is that direct votes wouldn't work on legal matters, such as minority rights nor would they be a good idea for entitlements because people would just vote for free money for themselves.

I've been accused of criticizing and never offering anything positive, especially by @Contrarian..

 

So I will offer this: create local digital constituencies, with online discussion... Very limited Anonymous participation allowed, centered around the MPS office to broker discussions on topics of national interest based on your riding.

Non-binding questions, polls, referenda could happen on such a platform.

Most importantly people could provide input on things like service levels, and government operations that impact people's lives directly rather than these huge issues that are only settled by a vote in Parliament.

Releasing us from the idea that government and the people are only represented by question period parliamentary processes would bring more power to the people.

[myata]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

In the medium term though, proportional representation would give us years if not decades of the same kind of center left government we have now.

Isn't it funny how folks who never tasted a strawberry venture into analyses and forecasts about specifics and nuances of flavor? Do it because there's no other reasonable options. It's a dead end, clearly the ride has run its course. A dinosaur among the democracies, then Mexico North.

[Michael Hardner]

37 minutes ago, myata said:

Isn't it funny how folks who never tasted a strawberry venture into analyses and forecasts about specifics and nuances of flavor? Do it because there's no other reasonable options. It's a dead end, clearly the ride has run its course. A dinosaur among the democracies, then Mexico North.

Well again you're lapsing into emotive laments and hyperbole.

No other reasonable options?  That's a lack of imagination on display IMO.  

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Isn't it funny how folks who never tasted a strawberry venture into analyses and forecasts about specifics and nuances of flavor? Do it because there's no other reasonable options. It's a dead end, clearly the ride has run its course. A dinosaur among the democracies, then Mexico North.

So, show and tell us what country where "proportional representation" is used and working?

Edited July 6, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

I think you should start a blog at centrism.ca, your property now, about it, I will link it from the radical side and follow it.

Maybe leave the questions for the mob, it seems to me, many here are lost in space, don't appreciate what they have, point the finger here and there, and instead of using their brain to do something, same old, same old. Doing work for a regular income, and on top of that, personal hobbies which drained me really, is not easy. Real Work is hard, Productivity is hard.

Easy is to do what the regulars do, spit on this land, and forum, because of Trudeau or whatever mediocre politician is up there which will be changed next time instead of talking solutions, innovation, and increasing the level of discussion. 

In almost 1 year this is what I learned, like a bar, where folks come in and present their grievances while others come around for interest, a vote, or collect information, some satire or maybe not. The sheriff, there is no sheriff in town, hence why mediocrity thrives, instead of solutions, that explains how out of those 300 online, just the regulars angry folks come around and spit on this platform due to personal grievances. And you are waiting with the questions. Funny how that works. 

I sent you a private message about this

[myata]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

So, show and tell us what country

Not really. What would be the point in showing to the blind and telling to the deaf? Things are great as they were in the times of Adam. The dinosaurs know.

[myata]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So I will offer this: create local digital constituencies, with online discussion... Very limited Anonymous participation allowed, centered around the MPS office to broker discussions on topics of national interest based on your riding.

Right. Chat it out to your glands Joe and then the Wise and Exalted Ones may take a heed.. or they may not. Too busy adjusting their allowances and compensations you see? but maybe next time, see ya later Joe and why don't you go right back to you service job no benefits minimal vacation and what pension where.

[TreeBeard]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

In the medium term though, proportional representation would give us years if not decades of the same kind of center left government we have now.

If that reflects how the voters actually voted more accurately, what is wrong with that? 

[ExFlyer]

32 minutes ago, myata said:

Not really. What would be the point in showing to the blind and telling to the deaf? Things are great as they were in the times of Adam. The dinosaurs know.

Because your claim is Bull Sit

You cannot back up your own BS LOL

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

If that reflects how the voters actually voted more accurately, what is wrong with that? 

I didn't say there was anything wrong.  But unless there is a big change, they will likely be less attention to conservative issues in the medium term, and possibly a two-party system soon after.

[myata]

4 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

If that reflects how the voters actually voted

then the voters would control who sits at the trough and that was never a good thing.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, myata said:

True. But in the UK there's centuries or practice and tradition to hold back the tide (not just saying, we can observe it in real time) while in Canada there's nothing. Nada, zilch. Some inspirational chit-chat long gone and tulips grown on it.

I would begin with opening the political system via some form of proportional representation. To expect that a modern society can be accurately and effectively represented by a monstrous corporation run singlehandedly from often unelected office is beyond naive. We can have referendums on principal issues as well, such as accommodation of minority groups, government checks and entitlements, etc.

All that would do would be to remove a lot of what little accountability we have.

And referendums are largely useless. The politiicans still get to pick the questions, and frame the debate. As the saying goes, "I don't need to run the country, i just need to control the nomination process".

While i appreciate the concerns you're attempting to address those just aren't good ways to address them.

[myata]

30 minutes ago, myata said:

Chat it out to your glands Joe and then the Wise and Exalted Ones may take a heed.. or they may not

What is confusing you @Michael Hardner? Who has the hands of the wheel and who's doing useless chatting that changes nothing... like talking heads; panel discussions; even Public Inquiries sometimes? Who yet has not figured it out here that as long as you have your butt firmly glued to a chair at the trough, it doesn't really matter who's doing the chattering?

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

All that would do would be to remove a lot of what little accountability we have.

We don't. No point in living in a dream world.

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

We don't. No point in living in a dream world.

sure we do.  The fact we don't always use it wisely doesn't change that. But we absolutely do have a decent level of accountability.  Ask erin o'toole about that.

If Canadians actualy used their powers wisely gov't would be a LOT more cautious and care about opinion more

And if they won't then no other system is going to deliver better results.

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, myata said:

What is confusing you @Michael Hardner?  

Do you expect anyone to understand "chat it out to your glands Joe"?

[TreeBeard]

19 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I didn't say there was anything wrong.  But unless there is a big change, they will likely be less attention to conservative issues in the medium term, and possibly a two-party system soon after.

Wait a sec….  When has a proportional system ever produced a two party system?  It has always been a criticism that it produces too many parties, not too few!  
 

It seems like you’re flinging poop and seeing what sticks. 

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Wait a sec….  When has a proportional system ever produced a two party system?  It has always been a criticism that it produces too many parties, not too few!  
 

It seems like you’re flinging poop and seeing what sticks. 

Maybe.

It would mean a giant change though, in how the parties relate to each other, and I think we agree on that.

[myata]

Look folks, we can figure this one out. Let's just try, objectively and diligently OK?

Imagine we were in a democracy, in a modern complex and developing society. So there are issues, right?

And so there will be interests. Next, citizens who want to effect change in their country would create communities, groups. For example: we owe a great debt to LBC++ people for the next approximately seven generations and should strive to make them live a dream; another group, accommodation is fine as long as its proportional and reasonable; cut government bureaucracy group and so on.

Let's suppose there are twenty, in total. Next, in a democracy they come to the citizens and ask: which issues do you consider important to you? Will you elect us so we could make the change you seek happen?

And then, citizens decide.

And now important please: which of the twenty were elected by the citizens? How can you tell?

No it's a question really: how can you tell which issues, and parties the citizens elected to effect the necessary change?

Do you do that by the only objective criteria? Or with a voodoo dance? Which one, only two options!

Proportional system is used by a great majority of developed democracies. Why? Because of the logic above. How do you determine a winner, among many equal candidates? Only by an objective criteria, right or wrong?

Another system is unique in the history, it cannot be taken formally outside of the context of the centuries of experience and traditions.

Or you can have independent representatives. You still need an answer to complexity and diversity of interests but at least formally you are a democracy because interests of citizens are represented by independent agents.

And that would be all reasonable options. We don't have it. We don't know which interests are important and priority ones for the citizens because there's no way to tell. Because the system is set to do a voodoo dance between two preset options, the only ones possible, as opposed to pick the winner based on results and merit, clearly and objectively.

Edited July 6, 2023 by myata