Canada & NATO

[August1991]

NATO (North America Treaty Organization) is a relic of the Cold War.

We in the West won the Cold War. The Soviet Union is no more.

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We Canadians must now decide how we decide our affairs, our own way.

[August1991]

In the past, we followed the British.

Then, I preferred the American response. 

Nowadays, I prefer the Chretien response. He was a wise man.

[August1991]

9 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

NATO provides a framework for collective defence and promotes stability in the Euro-Atlantic region.

...

Disagree. Strongly.

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Trump was correct. There is no longer a need for NATO.

Reagan won the Cold War.

[CdnFox]

Just now, August1991 said:

Disagree. Strongly.

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Trump was correct. There is no longer a need for NATO.

Reagan won the Cold War.

That might be true for the US but not for Canada - we'd have to start paying for our own military!

[August1991]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

That might be true for the US but not for Canada - we'd have to start paying for our own military!

To defend against whom?

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In the 1970s, our PM went to Red China. In the 1950s, our soldiers fought in Korea.

Because of Trudeau Snr and Reagan, we in the West eventually removed the Berlin Wall.

[August1991]

Just now, Contrarian said:

Respectfully, the continued existence and effectiveness of NATO remains essential for ensuring collective defense and stability in the Euro-Atlantic region, as well as promoting cooperation and security beyond its member states.

Disagree, very strongly.

Wise people like Reagan and Trudeau Snr won the Cold War.

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NATO nowadays is a scam - a shakedown racket. Eisenhower warned us of this.

 

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, August1991 said:

To defend against whom?

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In the 1970s, our PM went to Red China. In the 1950s, our soldiers fought in Korea.

Because of Trudeau Snr and Reagan, we in the West eventually removed the Berlin Wall.

Russsia for a start. They claim they own a significant hunk of the waterway to the north that is canada's domain. There very easily could be an armed confrontation over that.

China. There is a number of scenarios where a military crisis with china could unfold.

THere's many countries which may harm us  and for which we'd want to retaliate.  If Iran blew up the parlaiment building we might want to hit back. You'd need a military for that.

Now - admit it, your first thought was "the americans wouldn't stand for that they'd help".   Yeah. Nato.

A country that cannot provide for it's defense is no country. Right now we do so with the US.  Hell we needed to call them to come shoot down a balloon that was bugging us that we coudln't handle.

If we get rid of them that would be a bad thing unless we were prepared to spend a LOT of our defense.

[August1991]

3 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

According to an arrogant Québécois? 

Since the Berlin Wall fell in December 1989, America has bombed how many countries? Cities?

Belgrade. Baghdad. Tripoli. Killed how many people?

Since September 2001, I can somewhat understand.

 

 

[paxamericana]

See my short essay on why You need us. 

 

[August1991]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Russsia for a start. They claim they own a significant hunk of the waterway to the north that is canada's domain. There very easily could be an armed confrontation over that.

China. There is a number of scenarios where a military crisis with china could unfold.

...

Sorry, I entirely agreed with Trudeau Snr, JFK and Nixon in their opposition to the Soviet way of life.

But they and I would agree that the Russian (or Chinese) government has a claim on whatever.

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We in the Civilised West won the Cold War. Now, we're negotiating prices. It's all about honest numbers. 

[August1991]

My point?

People like Deng Xiaoping, Reagan and Trudeau Snr made it possible for ordinary people - people like me - to travel, cross borders. 

[August1991]

52 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Russsia for a start. They claim they own a significant hunk...

China. There is a number of scenarios where a military crisis with china could unfold.

....

The Soviet Union and Red China posed a serious threat to the West.

But ignorance was a greater threat.

We in the West won. Most people in the world are now free to trade with each other, and they use/understand a number to decide the terms of trade.

[August1991]

No one is born with the ability to count. It is not genetic.

Yet we live in a world where several billion people know/feel that in a deal, 3 is less than 5.

No dog or cat can do that.

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Some people/women believe that a cat/dog/computer is like a child. These people have no idea.

[CdnFox]

10 hours ago, August1991 said:

The Soviet Union and Red China posed a serious threat to the West.

But ignorance was a greater threat.

We in the West won. Most people in the world are now free to trade with each other, and they use/understand a number to decide the terms of trade.

China and russia are still there and still aggressive.  We certainly haven't 'won' anything from them yet

[CdnFox]

10 hours ago, August1991 said:

No one is born with the ability to count. It is not genetic.

Yet we live in a world where several billion people know/feel that in a deal, 3 is less than 5.

No dog or cat can do that.

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Some people/women believe that a cat/dog/computer is like a child. These people have no idea.

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/advice/dogs-understand-mathematics/

[Nationalist]

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

That might be true for the US but not for Canada - we'd have to start paying for our own military!

Which we should instead of wasting money of frivolous crap and ignoring our own wealth of natural resources.

[I am Groot]

15 hours ago, August1991 said:

Disagree. Strongly.

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Trump was correct. There is no longer a need for NATO.

Reagan won the Cold War.

Trump is a man of vast ignorance whose understanding of world geopolitics could fit on the tab from one of his soda cans.

The cold war is on right now between the West and the Axis powers of China-Russia-Iran.

[Army Guy]

16 hours ago, August1991 said:

The Soviet Union and Red China posed a serious threat to the West.

But ignorance was a greater threat.

We in the West won. Most people in the world are now free to trade with each other, and they use/understand a number to decide the terms of trade.

According to some of the top generals and politicians in the west and the east, we are already at war...And without NATO where would Ukraine be or any of the EX war saw pact countries... who would step up and tell Russia to back down...or face serious consequences, 

We seen the collapse of the Warsaw pact, Mother Russia is or was still considered a threat from conventional and nuclear forces... China is now the major world threat on all fronts, conventional, nuclear, and economical.  and taking out the largest military alliance to counter both Russia and china, you should start learning to talk both those languages.

[paxamericana]

I think a missing component in this discussion is geography. American security gaurantee is what allowed for countries to circumvent their basic geographical limitation, countries that lacked raw resources to grow and sell product  had unhindered access guaranteed by the American. 

Without the guarantor, basic geographical limit will force countries to secure their own trade route and compete over natural resources as was the reason for both world war. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by paxamericana

[August1991]

On 4/28/2023 at 7:43 PM, Army Guy said:

According to some of the top generals and politicians in the west and the east, we are already at war...And without NATO where would Ukraine be or any of the EX war saw pact countries... who would step up and tell Russia to back down...or face serious consequences, 

We seen the collapse of the Warsaw pact, Mother Russia is or was still considered a threat from conventional and nuclear forces... China is now the major world threat on all fronts, conventional, nuclear, and economical.  and taking out the largest military alliance to counter both Russia and china, you should start learning to talk both those languages.

Army Guy,

The Soviet Union - Communist ideology - posed a serious threat to the West. Reagan won.

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Russia today - Putin - poses no threat to the West.

IMHO, stubborn Slavs are fighting among themselves.

Edited April 30, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:50 PM, CdnFox said:

China and russia are still there and still aggressive.  We certainly haven't 'won' anything from them yet

I prefer a multipolar world.

As Trudeau Snr said: "Create counterweights."

Edited April 30, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

If the Finns join NATO, that's my tell as a Canadian to leave the bar.

This is a European problem.

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The Swedes got involved in the Thirty Years War. It may get ugly.

Edited April 30, 2023 by August1991

[Dougie93]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:32 AM, August1991 said:

We Canadians must now decide how we decide our affairs, our own way.

the Canadian way is to fight for the Empire

regardless of the 1949 Washington Treaty

Canada remains signatory to the United Kingdom United States of America Agreement

Five Eyes is Canada's principle Alliance, well above & beyond NATO

there is no Canadian nation

other than that which was forged in fire on the Western Front

from Second Ypres to Mons

Canada has no foreign policy

other than the Anglosphere

forged in the fires of the Second World War

from Dunkirk to Juno Beach

[Dougie93]

14 hours ago, August1991 said:

If the Finns join NATO, that's my tell as a Canadian to leave the bar.

This is a European problem.

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The Swedes got involved in the Thirty Years War. It may get ugly.

Russia is not revanchist against Finland for the outcome of the First Cold War

Russia is revanchist against America for the outcome of the First Cold War

thus the front line is not in Europe

but rather over the Pole

with Canada in no man's land between

[Dougie93]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:47 AM, August1991 said:

Disagree. Strongly.

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Trump was correct. There is no longer a need for NATO.

Reagan won the Cold War.

Canada though UKUSA & NORAD none the less remains in a frozen conflict with Russia

an interpolar thermonuclear standoff

at fifteen minutes notice to launch on warning hair trigger alert

the North Atlantic Security Zone is a maritime theatre

Canada's area of responsibility is actually Atlantic Western Approaches

primarily defending the G-I-UK Gap

hence why the RCN has 12 ASW frigates & 4 SSK's, if nothing else