Canada wrongly supports a "two-state" solution for Israel

[Mako]

31 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

But the question of who is the aggressor is a chicken and egg argument. Today’s air strike is retaliation for yesterday’s rocket attack which was retaliation for the day before yesterday’s air strike which was retaliation for last week’s suicide bombing which was retaliation for the unarmed rock-throwing kids shot by Israeli troops after the village water supply was shut off by Israeli authorities during a drought for no obvious reason…yadda yadda, some provocateur trespassed on the other side’s the holy site, yadda yadda 1973, 1967, 1948 wars Kind David Hotel, Ottomans, Romans, etc. Heck even according to their own founding mythology, the original Jews were invaders of that land who slaughtered the local inhabitant. Abraham, mythical father of all Muslims Jews and Christians was said to be originally from Ur in southern Iraq. 
 

In other words at this point they are all aggressors. 

Just two facts for you:
 

1) The Israeli leadership and people are not religious for the most part.

2) While Muslims have been brutal it’s usually the Israelis who have had the power to discriminate against and bomb the Palestinians.

https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/children.html

Edited April 8, 2023 by Mako

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, Mako said:

2) While Muslims have been brutal it’s usually the Israelis who have had the power to discriminate against and bomb the Palestinians.

https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/children.html

But not to instigate it.  Generally violent conflict is instigated by the muslims.  And usually in a fashion where retaliation will result in civillian casualties on purpose.  For example they'll put a rocket launcher on a hospital roof and then shoot into isreal. The isrealis fire back and destroy the launcher and hospital.  The muslims then say "how terrible they're destroying civilian hospitals!  (My mom was in there ! Snif!).

I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who commits random violence knowing what the result will be in order to gain favor in the international community, and the evidence seems pretty overwhelming that is what's happening.

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, Mako said:

Do you believe the Buddha and Jesus were not real people?

Your blanket condemnation of all religion is kind of silly don’t you think?

Do you accept the fact that non-religious people have committed some of history’s worst crimes?

At best the stories of Buddha and Jesus are highly mythologized stories based on real people and probably each story is the product of multiple myths and legends and religions beliefs that combined over centuries. So the short answer is no I don’t believe that the Jesus and Buddha characters, as presented in their respective texts are real. Since the two religions are mutually exclusive (at least in their traditional practice) they can’t both be accurate so even those who enjoy magical thinking and superstitions have to admit the worst I can be is half right. 
 

To be clear I don’t condemn religion- I know some people believe it just to get out of bed in the morning or to keep from harming themselves or others.  But I condemn teaching religion as literal scientific fact when it is clearly allegory that is over the head of most of its followers   If they changed the name of “religion” to “philosophy” and described all the prophets as “philosophers” and clarified that all of the stories were purely allegory, humanity would probably be better served  

By “non-Religious” people you’re basically referring to the communists so starting in approximately 1917 since AFAIK there’s no record of any large organized “non-religious” groups in human history before then. That stacks up pretty poorly against the many millennia of religious humans dating back to the stone age which contains more atrocities than anyone can count.  But sure, whether with or without religion humans are inherently and equally capable of evil. Religion is created by humans  so is just an extension of our own contradictory nature to wish for peace while simultaneously seeking conflict. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by BeaverFever

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, Mako said:

Just two facts for you:
 

1) The Israeli leadership and people are not religious for the most part.

2) While Muslims have been brutal it’s usually the Israelis who have had the power to discriminate against and bomb the Palestinians.

https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/children.html

1) Even if that’s technically factual in terms of their personal religious practices and observances, it doesn’t mean they’re any less zealous in their belief in zionism or oppression of Palestinians. Besides Israel’s system of government relies on political coalitions that include many ultra religious parties that hold considerable influence over government policy. 
 

2)Both sides are responsible in their own way 

[Army Guy]

On 4/7/2023 at 11:06 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Have a look at these actions. Do none of them qualify for your definition of terrorism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)

This is how their own newspaper justified their campaign:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

British PM Clement Attlee had this to say about the King David bombing:

Future Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir’s code name in the organization was Michael, an apparent reference to Michael Collins, a key figure in the Irish Republican Army.

Yes, one can talk about legitimate military targets, collateral damage etc. All I’m saying is that this is a grey area. 

 

First of, it is not MY definition but one adopted by the federal government, and closely resembles the definition laid out by the US, European union, and UN...

There is no grey area, terrorist targets are civilian targets that will score the most political damage, or instill fear into civilians...very rarely do they take on strictly military targets unless they are soft.

Military targets are based on gathered intel, they are planed so that damage to civilians is minimized, and follow the Geneva convention rules on what can be targeted or not...  That being said sometimes the target is of high value, and civilian casualties do not hold the same value, ie killing the target will save more lives down the road...War is not as sanitized as you may think, Israel does take extraordinary measures to limit collateral damage, such as bull dozing homes of know PLO terrorist, instead of bombing them, advanced notice is given the soldiers show up doze the home and leave... you don't see any of that planning or care all you see is what the media covers,.... if it bleeds it leads...

No one should shed any tears for terrorists..

 

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

But not to instigate it.  Generally violent conflict is instigated by the muslims

I don’t think that’s accurate. Often it’s instigated by Israeli arbitrary shut-off of water, road closures, bulldozing homes or drinking wells built without a proper permit etc.  But regardless, both sides have been tit-for-tat for so many generations that it’s pointless and irrelevant to play the “but he started it “ game. 
 

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

For example they'll put a rocket launcher on a hospital roof and then shoot into isreal. The isrealis fire back and destroy the launcher and hospital.  The muslims then say "how terrible they're destroying civilian hospitals!  (My mom was in there ! Snif!).

Or so the allegations go but I think these claims are exaggerated. I’m not saying a situation like this has never happened but this narrative naturally assumes the worst intentions of one side and the best intentions of the other. Are the 700,000 illegal Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories that syphon water from Palestinians not similar?  Just recently in another tit-for-tat cycle of violence a mob of hundreds of armed Israeli settlers in the OT descended on a Palestinian town and went on an hours-long violent revenge rampage with the Isreali army providing overwatch, injuring hundreds and killing an unarmed Palestinian man who had just returned from earthquake relief work in Turkey. 
 

Incidents of settler violence across the West Bank happen every day, and have steadily increased over the past few years: many of the 700,000 or so Israelis living in the territory and East Jerusalem are motivated by what they see as a religious mission to restore the historical land of Israel to the Jewish people. Settlement communities are viewed as illegal under international law, and one of the biggest obstacles to peace…

Shootings, knife attacks, burning crops, vandalism and the theft of land and livestock are supposed to make life for Palestinians so unbearable they have no choice but to leave. On many occasions, the Israeli army has been documented failing to stem the violence, or even joining in….

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/27/israeli-settler-violence-in-west-bank-escalates-huwara

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I have a hard time feeling sorry for

Conservatives love to use this expression all the time and I don’t know how many times I have to say this:
 

Who you “feel sorry for” is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the principles of justice, fairness and the rule of law

Many people are just not able to to tell these things apart, which is a big problem 

Furthermore you make the mistake of conflating innocent people with terrorists and subjecting them all to the same judgment and collective punishment 

[Army Guy]

On 4/7/2023 at 11:00 PM, Americana Antifa said:

True. But why does Hamas have so much support? Do you think it could be because the people in Gaza are relying on them for survival?

During WWII, there were Jews fleeing Nazi Germany and surrendering themselves to the Soviet Union. Why? Stalinist Russia was a horrible place. Why do you think Jews chose to migrate there anyway?

International community is what keeps the doors open, food flowing , goods flow in and out of Gaza, your giving them way to much credit... The people voted in Hamas a terrorist group becasue they for the most part agree with Hamas political agenda... killing Israel...like i said hate is taught at every level, it will take generations to get rid of it, there is NO peace to be had... you can say what ever you want about Israel methods we don't not have to live there. and one day Hamas will do something and the west is not going to be able to contain Israel and shit is going to happen...

Hamas only controls Gaza, and we are talking about Hamas, so i assumed that is the region your referring Fatah controls the west bank 2 separate organizations in gaza Hamas controls everything police, military elements, everything... 

west bank is an entire different state and political group. in those areas Fatah has never had complete control...Israel is responsible to provide everything infra structure, everything...and i don't think this will ever change, here both sides are inter locked such as shared religious sites, etc.. and one side is not giving the other anything...

 Israel / Palestine Map: Who Controls What in May 2021? - Political Geography Now (polgeonow.com)

You should read WHY the Jews fled , go back to the beginning of the end of WWI, during and after WWII nobody wanted the Jews, not the US, Canada, Europe, where did you expect them to go...Canada sent back ships full of Jews, what happened to them, did they have a happy outcome, not really ? and our government knew what German was doing to them.... Justine has already apologized for it...So they really did not have much of a choice... And they have been struggling ever since then, if it was not Germans , or the rest of the world, then it was everyone in the Middle East... and yet some how we judge them becasue they refuse to lay done and die... 

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Yes by all definitions they are occupied. That is just a fact. That is why they called the Occupied Territories. They are not a sovereign state. They are occupied by Israeli settlements and are under the control of Israel military. And and as I have mentioned several times now (which you continue to ignore) their access to basic goods and services and even permits for things like housing and wells are under Israeli government control.  
 

The “fog of war” excuse doesn’t cut it. 

Gaza is controlled by Hamas.... which is who we are talking about... Fatah controls the west bank...two different groups...

everything about WAR is under a huge blanket of fog...it is about attrition nothing more ...this example Israel is fighting an insurgent war with a bunch of terrorist that do not want to compromise or surrender ever... Peace will come when the treat is eliminated....in say generations .... And the international community, will condemn Israel's actions but not the terrorist, that includes the UN , who is is very bias towards Israel..

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

But they are not singling out only those individuals who “support or work for” terrorists, they are issuing collective punishment on every single man woman and child regardless of their actions. 
 

Palestinians are under occupation, period. Even the Israeli Supreme Court calls it “Belligerent Occupation”. 
 

As am aside I think you may be confusing Israeli policy for Gaza with the other occupied territories as I believe there is a permanent military presence in all occupied territories except Gaza

In what way are they using collective punishment ?, then tell me how are they going to keep Israelis safe from terrorist if they don't take these measures. 

Palestinians are under occupation becasue they choose to be, stop the terrorism and then talks can begin...it is that simple...

I'm not confused Hamas controls Gaza 'who we were discussing, Fatah controls the west bank. two different groups. 

[Americana Antifa]

44 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

The people voted in Hamas a terrorist group becasue they for the most part agree with Hamas political agenda... killing Israel

OH REALLY?! And why do you think that is? Why do you think people trapped in an open air prison are willing to support a gang of thugs who promise to end the blockade?

[BeaverFever]

48 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Gaza is controlled by Hamas.... which is who we are talking about... Fatah controls the west bank...two different groups...

everything about WAR is under a huge blanket of fog...it is about attrition nothing more ...this example Israel is fighting an insurgent war with a bunch of terrorist that do not want to compromise or surrender ever... Peace will come when the treat is eliminated....in say generations .... And the international community, will condemn Israel's actions but not the terrorist, that includes the UN , who is is very bias towards Israel..

The territories are occupied. They are called the Occupied Territories. Every international authority including Israel’s own judiciary, recognizes that they are occupied. They are not sovereign states. The earth is round, the sky is blue and the Occupied Territories are occupied territories. 
 

The claim that intentional community will not condemn the terrorists is 100% pure BS. The suggestion that Israel is somehow more open to compromise than the Palestinians and they will happily make concessions if only terrorism is neutralized is also BS. Why do they keep building illegal settlements in the occupied territories if this is only about security amd they plan to return the land at first opportunity?   Israel is getting close to 1 Million illegal settlers living in armed and fortified cities built amd settled by the Israeli government in the territories that you claim aren’t being occupied.  

[BeaverFever]

53 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

In what way are they using collective punishment ?, then tell me how are they going to keep Israelis safe from terrorist if they don't take these measures. 

Palestinians are under occupation becasue they choose to be, stop the terrorism and then talks can begin...it is that simple...

I'm not confused Hamas controls Gaza 'who we were discussing, Fatah controls the west bank. two different groups. 

I’ve said it multiple times already and you’re just ignoring it. Do I have to say this again again?  From now on I’m just going to refer you back to this post.  For example:

Diverting drinking water from Palestinian villages to fill swimming pools in illegal settlements isn’t about security. Hell, building Illegal settlements at all isn’t about security.  Denying Palestinians permits for homes and wells and then using that as an excuse to bulldoze the homes and wells they have no choice to build anyway isn’t about security. 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I don’t think that’s accurate. Often it’s instigated by Israeli arbitrary shut-off of water, road closures, bulldozing homes or drinking wells built without a proper permit etc.  But regardless, both sides have been tit-for-tat for so many generations that it’s pointless and irrelevant to play the “but he started it “ game.

Well with regards to provocation i'm not versed enough in the facts to out and out contest that right now. That isn't my understanding but you may have looked at it more.

Overall sure, it's way too late to go back to the start and would be unproductive to do so. But - we can say for any particular round of violence who broke the peace. And that does have to be a factor in my opinion.

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

 

Or so the allegations go but I think these claims are exaggerated. I’m not saying a situation like this has never happened but this narrative naturally assumes the worst intentions of one side and the best intentions of the other.

 

Well again you have me at a slight (and rare) disadvantage where i haven't studied this enough to say what percent of the conflicts are this way. I remember paying close attention to one years ago and it was certainly happening then, and i've heard it's happend since, but can't say how often. It SEEMS to me like it's more than you're suggesting and it doesn't necessarily speak 'the best' of the isrealis per se.   But i would argue that whoever DOES instigate violence or make use of civilians as shields should be most strongly condemned and siupport for them should be cut off as punishment. It's inhuman tactics in this day and age.

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Are the 700,000 illegal Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories that syphon water from Palestinians not similar?

I wouldn't think so. Fights over resources are common enough and unless people have NO water or the like and are dying it's not the same thing. And if it happens then take THAT to the world community and have isreal condemned for it's actions. Don't shoot rockets at kids then hide behind a hospital.

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

 Just recently in another tit-for-tat cycle of violence a mob of hundreds of armed Israeli settlers in the OT descended on a Palestinian town and went on an hours-long violent revenge rampage with the Isreali army providing overwatch, injuring hundreds and killing an unarmed Palestinian man who had just returned from earthquake relief work in Turkey.

If they instigated the violence then that should be condemned. For sure - but i generally only hear about those stories from the left and i don't hear about any of the things the palestinians do to instigate violence.  And in fairness - they literally have 'wipe out isreal' as their gov'ts campaign slogan (well - half of them anyway i guess)

So it's not hard to beileve they're doing a fair bit of the instigating.

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

 

Incidents of settler violence across the West Bank happen every day, and have steadily increased over the past few years: many of the 700,000 or so Israelis living in the territory and East Jerusalem are motivated by what they see as a religious mission to restore the historical land of Israel to the Jewish people. Settlement communities are viewed as illegal under international law, and one of the biggest obstacles to peace…

I don't know that this is true.  (Mind you again - don't know enough to say it's false).  It seems to me that i've heard from the other side explanations that suggest it's NOT illegal and that the problem is the palestinians want to restore THEIR 'historical lands'.

So my feeling without having read the relevant law or studied the legal aspects is that there's probably no white hats there. Both sides have issues.  But as long as one side will only settle for the destruction of the other i don't see a path to peace.

 

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Shootings, knife attacks, burning crops, vandalism and the theft of land and livestock are supposed to make life for Palestinians so unbearable they have no choice but to leave. On many occasions, the Israeli army has been documented failing to stem the violence, or even joining in….

And the palistinains are doing their share too. Sending firebombs into isreal, doing their fair share of attacking jews and so on. I've seen those stories too.  And every few years they get it into their heads to launch rockets at them - and then there's retaliation.

My gut feeling is that if the palestinians stop with the violence, the violence would stop. The isrealies appear to be more interested in actual peace if they can get it.

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/27/israeli-settler-violence-in-west-bank-escalates-huwara

Ok  so that is the article you were describing earlier with the guy who just got back being killed.

Here's my problem: "wary that Israeli settlers living in the area were seeking revenge for the murder of two brothers shot dead by a Palestinian gunman in nearby Huwara, "

Now, i'm the first to say i don't approve of civilians taking military matters into their own hands and  think the people involved should face charges.

But again - DON"T SHOOT ISREALIES!!!  It gets them ALL WORKED UP. And it's LUCKY it wasn't an armed military group or tanks or fighter/bombers retaliating!

Don't start violence and as  a rule there probably won't be any but if you kill isrealies you KNOW they're going to lose their minds and their response is always disproportional in order to discourage.

So why weren't you condeming the shooting of these two brothers along with the isreali response? Do you not consider that to be a bad thing too?

[Mako]

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

But not to instigate it.  Generally violent conflict is instigated by the muslims.  And usually in a fashion where retaliation will result in civillian casualties on purpose.  For example they'll put a rocket launcher on a hospital roof and then shoot into isreal. The isrealis fire back and destroy the launcher and hospital.  The muslims then say "how terrible they're destroying civilian hospitals!  (My mom was in there ! Snif!).

I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who commits random violence knowing what the result will be in order to gain favor in the international community, and the evidence seems pretty overwhelming that is what's happening.

Wow that’s called blaming the victim.

Provide evidence the Palestinians routinely put rocket launchers on hospitals.

Do you acknowledge that Israel has a huge war machine thanks in large part to U.S. taxpayers?

Israel murders a lot of helpless civilians.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-62553628

Edited April 9, 2023 by Mako

[Mako]

7 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

At best the stories of Buddha and Jesus are highly mythologized stories based on real people and probably each story is the product of multiple myths and legends and religions beliefs that combined over centuries. So the short answer is no I don’t believe that the Jesus and Buddha characters, as presented in their respective texts are real. Since the two religions are mutually exclusive (at least in their traditional practice) they can’t both be accurate so even those who enjoy magical thinking and superstitions have to admit the worst I can be is half right. 
 

To be clear I don’t condemn religion- I know some people believe it just to get out of bed in the morning or to keep from harming themselves or others.  But I condemn teaching religion as literal scientific fact when it is clearly allegory that is over the head of most of its followers   If they changed the name of “religion” to “philosophy” and described all the prophets as “philosophers” and clarified that all of the stories were purely allegory, humanity would probably be better served  

By “non-Religious” people you’re basically referring to the communists so starting in approximately 1917 since AFAIK there’s no record of any large organized “non-religious” groups in human history before then. That stacks up pretty poorly against the many millennia of religious humans dating back to the stone age which contains more atrocities than anyone can count.  But sure, whether with or without religion humans are inherently and equally capable of evil. Religion is created by humans  so is just an extension of our own contradictory nature to wish for peace while simultaneously seeking conflict. 

The Jesus as myth view is popular among whiny uneducated internet atheist activist adolescent boys.

https://evidenceandanswers.org/article/pagan-connection-did-christianity-borrow-from-mystery-religions/

Atheists have existed in the past, during the Roman Empire and Enlightenment, but not in large numbers. I think you are right atheism is not a popular faith or philosophy. This makes the massive death toll of atheism all the more remarkable.

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674076082

Frederick II caused many wars.

https://www.spectator.com.au/2015/10/frederick-the-great-king-of-prussia-is-a-great-read/

And let’s not forget that bloated war-monger Christopher Hitchens.

https://www.voltairenet.org/article172154.html

Edited April 9, 2023 by Mako

[Mako]

6 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

1) Even if that’s technically factual in terms of their personal religious practices and observances, it doesn’t mean they’re any less zealous in their belief in zionism or oppression of Palestinians. Besides Israel’s system of government relies on political coalitions that include many ultra religious parties that hold considerable influence over government policy. 
 

2)Both sides are responsible in their own way 

Both sides have committed violent acts but that strikes me as a trivial observation, true of every military conflict.
 

The Zionists/Israelis have been the primary aggressor and they possess a far larger military machine thanks to AIPAC and the American taxpayer. They have done most of the killing.

https://www.wrmea.org/1994-july-august/begin-s-admission-in-1982-that-israel-started-three-of-its-wars.html

Edited April 9, 2023 by Mako

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Mako said:

Wow that’s called blaming the victim.

No, sorry. but if it helps what you're doing is called tribalism filtering.

1 hour ago, Mako said:

Provide evidence the Palestinians routinely put rocket launchers on hospitals.

Why - doesn't sound like you're much interested in the truth.  What will you do if i DO provide that evidence? Will you say i'm right or insist it's not 'real' evidence or just change the channel?

1 hour ago, Mako said:

Do you acknowledge that Israel has a huge war machine thanks in large part to U.S. taxpayers?

Sure.

1 hour ago, Mako said:

Israel murders a lot of helpless civilians.

No, isreal kills a lot of helpless civillians. The palistinians make sure of that.  so don't fire rockets at isreal maybe.

1 hour ago, Mako said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-62553628

Of course they're used to it -  their parents shoot rockets at isreal near their schools and isreal retaliates and blows the hell out of the school and everything near by.
 

So maybe don't shoot rockets or send firebombs or anything like that into isreal. THey've got better gear and they will squash you.

[Mako]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

No, sorry. but if it helps what you're doing is called tribalism filtering.

Why - doesn't sound like you're much interested in the truth.  What will you do if i DO provide that evidence? Will you say i'm right or insist it's not 'real' evidence or just change the channel?

Sure.

No, isreal kills a lot of helpless civillians. The palistinians make sure of that.  so don't fire rockets at isreal maybe.

Of course they're used to it -  their parents shoot rockets at isreal near their schools and isreal retaliates and blows the hell out of the school and everything near by.
 

So maybe don't shoot rockets or send firebombs or anything like that into isreal. THey've got better gear and they will squash you.

So you don’t have proof for your belief that Palestinians are responsible for Israeli bombing deaths.

Do you acknowledge that Israel discriminates against Palestinians.

https://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/database-discriminatory-israel/

Do you acknowledge that the Israelis engaged in ethnic cleansing?

Which side does more killing?

https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/rockets.html

Edited April 9, 2023 by Mako

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Mako said:

So you don’t have proof for your belief that Palestinians are responsible for Israeli bombing deaths.

So the best you can do is lie about what i said? So yiou're admitting i'm right and your only defense is to lie

Well there you go. I was right.

4 hours ago, Mako said:

Do you acknowledge that Israel discriminates against Palestinians.

https://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/database-discriminatory-israel/

I acknowledge the Palistinians discriminate more - they literally have said as an official position that the jews should be wiped out. Something you didnt' mention for some strange reason. Wow - it's as if you were completely brainwashed and think that the palistinians do NOTHING wrong at all.

4 hours ago, Mako said:

Do you acknowledge that the Israelis engaged in ethnic cleansing?

Considering that they haven't actually cleansed anything and htey could if they wanted to - i'm gonna go with 'no'.

4 hours ago, Mako said:

Which side does more killing?

https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/rockets.html

Doesn't matter does it.  If you try to kill me and fail, and i kill you instead before you can try again, i've done more killing but was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT to do so.

So here's my question - you've clearly lied and been dishonest in your above reply - we both know palestinias have used human shield tactics and have been the instigators much of the time, yet you claim otherwise and sealion about it and of course there's your many lies by omission as you suggest the Palestinians have done nothing in this conflict and are simply innocent victims which we also know is not true. That's common knowledge.

So given that - if you really actually felt the Palestinians were in the right here.... why did you feel the need to lie? If it's clear cut as you suggest then why not tell the truth?

Your own words prove you think they are guilty, you just prefer them to isrealies.  I condemn the bad actions of BOTH sides - you've taken a side and will lie to protect it.

Disgusting. You should be ashamed.

[Army Guy]

12 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

OH REALLY?! And why do you think that is? Why do you think people trapped in an open air prison are willing to support a gang of thugs who promise to end the blockade?

Yes really, The people voted in the government they wanted, a terrorist organization.....How much more has to be said, they agree with the tactics these terrorist are using or they would not be in power....As for their promise has it ever seen the light of day... are the people thinking maybe we made a mistake are they taking to the streets and protesting...NO

 

[Army Guy]

12 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The territories are occupied. They are called the Occupied Territories. Every international authority including Israel’s own judiciary, recognizes that they are occupied. They are not sovereign states. The earth is round, the sky is blue and the Occupied Territories are occupied territories. 
 

The claim that intentional community will not condemn the terrorists is 100% pure BS. The suggestion that Israel is somehow more open to compromise than the Palestinians and they will happily make concessions if only terrorism is neutralized is also BS. Why do they keep building illegal settlements in the occupied territories if this is only about security amd they plan to return the land at first opportunity?   Israel is getting close to 1 Million illegal settlers living in armed and fortified cities built amd settled by the Israeli government in the territories that you claim aren’t being occupied.  

I'll explain this again, we were talking about Hamas, Hamas controls Gaza strip, and their authority ends there at the city limits Gaza is not occupied, it is control completely by Hamas. Israel has allowed them self government gave it to them on a silver platter, and yet the rockets keep coming, it proves that they are not concerned with freedom as you suggest they are more concerned with making war with Israel. and why would they give the same to the west bank ? 

How do you know if it is bullshit, has peace ever happened, you look back on all the peace agreements signed and look at which organization has picked the fight back up, and you'll have your answer it is fact not bullshit...There is to much hate for there to be any peace... and if there is not going to be any peace might as well force them out ... but you can't see that...

[SpankyMcFarland]

14 hours ago, Army Guy said:

First of, it is not MY definition but one adopted by the federal government, and closely resembles the definition laid out by the US, European union, and UN...

There is no grey area, terrorist targets are civilian targets that will score the most political damage, or instill fear into civilians...very rarely do they take on strictly military targets unless they are soft.

Military targets are based on gathered intel, they are planed so that damage to civilians is minimized, and follow the Geneva convention rules on what can be targeted or not...  That being said sometimes the target is of high value, and civilian casualties do not hold the same value, ie killing the target will save more lives down the road...War is not as sanitized as you may think, Israel does take extraordinary measures to limit collateral damage, such as bull dozing homes of know PLO terrorist, instead of bombing them, advanced notice is given the soldiers show up doze the home and leave... you don't see any of that planning or care all you see is what the media covers,.... if it bleeds it leads...

No one should shed any tears for terrorists..

 

I think war is innately chaotic and very difficult to write rules for. And I don’t want to defend Hamas either because I don’t agree with their goals. What I am saying is that this area is more ambiguous than it seems. 

BTW destroying homes is deliberate collective punishment of an entire family and is completely unacceptable conduct. Its primary goal is vengeance. It also may assist in ethnic cleansing.

Regarding the title, we should remember that a two-state solution is the preferred outcome held by most nations, including even the US, officially at least. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[CdnFox]

16 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Conservatives love to use this expression all the time and I don’t know how many times I have to say this:
 

Who you “feel sorry for” is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the principles of justice, fairness and the rule of law

Many people are just not able to to tell these things apart, which is a big problem 

Furthermore you make the mistake of conflating innocent people with terrorists and subjecting them all to the same judgment and collective punishment 

First - That's dumb. Clearly they rely on people being sympathetic to their situation on both sides. That creates what's called 'political capital'.  IF people have no sympathy for one side then they're not going to ask their gov'ts to speak out, are they.

So yeah. It matters.

And secondly - screw them then. If that's YOUR attitude and THEIR attitude then i don't really care - if that's how you feel it is then let them sort it out.  IF they don't need me to care then let the isrealies wipe them out for all it matters to me.  Both sides say justice is on their side so if you're going to get pissed because i dared to show an interest then no problem - i'm no longer interested, let them get wiped out, no skin off my nose is it.  Well done.

 

[Army Guy]

6 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I think war is innately chaotic and very difficult to write rules for. And I don’t want to defend Hamas either because I don’t agree with their goals. What I am saying is that this area is more ambiguous than it seems. 

BTW destroying homes is deliberate collective punishment of an entire family and is completely unacceptable conduct. Its primary goal is vengeance. It also may assist in ethnic cleansing.

Regarding the title, we should remember that a two-state solution is the preferred outcome held by most nations, including even the US, officially at least. 

 

I agree the situation is extremely complex, even more so when you add terrorism to it. And i am not making excuses for Israel actions, But survival as a nation is difficult to imigine what you would do to protect it, and with the Jews back ground it is not hard to see why they have chosen this route..... but the truth is some where in the middle.

I"m pretty sure that they are not dozing random housing, I'm sure that one of the family members has taken part in a terrorist act, or supported terrorism in some way, the primary goal is to deter others from doing the same thing, is it vengeance, they call it justice, part of the sentence, or the price you pay for taking part in terrorism...I've seen ethic cleansing up close in Bosnia and this is not it...

Read the entire history of Israel and what was promised and then finally what was delivered and ask your self is it right they have to divide there nation once again to the same people that wanted to push them into the sea... what is it that Israel gets out of the deal...and then Israel has given GAZA and Hamas self determination and government and what are they doing with it, launching rockets, and conducting raids into Israel, so i ask once again what is in it for Israel, Hamas/ Fatah are not offering peace but more war...The lines are drawn in the sand they are drawn in deep, neither side cares what we think, we do not have to live in their shoes...