Transgender Issues

[Perspektiv]

According to extremists, she holds zero competitive advantages:

Precisely why the difficulty in having rational discussions is so high.

[Michael Hardner]

55 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

 

Precisely why the difficulty in having rational discussions is so high.

Why somebody seeking rational discussion with seek out extremists is a real puzzle to me.

Speaking of rational, you claim to want rational conversations but insist that you have the right to use insults that you deem correct.

This is about his rational as a cackle from a court jester.

[Americana Antifa]

On 5/5/2023 at 6:08 PM, CdnFox said:

Nope, just a statistical blip. That happens from time to time. You're talking about a very low sample rate.

Interesting how a lot of these "statistical blips" happen when something taboo becomes acceptable or legal. Oh, but the increase in trans people, that's not a statistical blip. That's actually part of a plot by the Je... er... "George Soros" to make the kids all trans in order to destroy Western Civilization. 

But this is what I expect from fascists. Y'all will build entire movements on a few lies. When those lies are debunked, it won't matter, because you don't care about the truth, you care about the results.

Right now the main goal of the Right is trans genocide. This is being justified by the idea that kids are being groomed into being trans, but the justification is for the normies. You don't honestly care either way if kids are actually being groomed. That's why when the data debunks the lies, the data is just brushed aside as "statistical blip."

[Perspektiv]

5 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

on a few lies.

Kind of like there being "unlimited genders"?

6 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Right now the main goal of the Right is trans genocide.

And the left, destruction of society.

6 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

normies

Anyone who uses normies in debate, loses credibility.

[CdnFox]

13 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Interesting how a lot of these "statistical blips" happen when something taboo becomes acceptable or legal.

They don't.  There's tonnes of examples where the law changes and something becomes legal and there's no blip at all There's either a sustained change or none

Can you give us a few examples of these "other" statistical blips?

13 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

 

, that's not a statistical blip. That's actually part of a plot by the Je... er... "George Soros" to make the kids all trans in order to destroy Western Civilization. 

Still going on about the jews i see. Pathetic.  "I'm losing an argument - quick blame the jews!!!!"

13 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

But this is what I expect from fascists. Y'all will build entire movements on a few lies. When those lies are debunked, it won't matter, because you don't care about the truth, you care about the results.

Awww muffin LOL  it's always easy to tell when you know you're wrong and you're frustrated about it   The population of the world that's facist nazis suddenly climbs to 100 percent   LOLOLOL!!!!

13 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Right now the main goal of the Right is trans genocide.

Sure - we all just had a meeting about that. I was "genocide the trans, destroy democracy and put hairy spiders in everyone's garage" in that order. 

You're an !diot  

Here - we know you're so upset you'll be posting pictures in a minute, enjoy this one. I'm pretty sure this is how you think the right works  

Oh - and leave the jews alone would you?

 

 

[Americana Antifa]

9 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Why is it transphobic? How many genders are there? 

It's transphobic because it's a dog whistle. What people really mean when they say this is that you can't transition. It's like how it's not anti-jewish to condemn George Soros, but most of the times when Soros is being brought up, he's being used as a dog whistle for Jews. Same with "Chicago" or "thugs" and black people.

In America there are two genders, but it depends on the society. There have always been societies that recognized more than two genders.

9 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

So you're saying the gender unicorn is incorrect?

The gender unicorn is used to teach about how gender is different from sex. So no, the gender unicorn is correct and cute.

9 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

How do you surgically become a third gender?

Depends on the society and the gender. I know in Albania, people generally don't get surgery to transition to the third gender.

9 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Or isn't pushed onto kids. Some happen to believe in letting kids be just that. Leave the heavy stuff for when they can actually understand it.

It's really not heavy to let kids know that trans people exist.

School is about education and we should be educating kids on the world around them. We should let them know that some of your friends might have two moms or two dads.

Some parents don't like that in public school they teach about the holidays of different religions. Welp, sorry, but that's life. Your kids need to know that not everyone they meet is going to have their religion or celebrate their holidays.

9 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

My wife's daughter we feel, may be gay. She has always identified herself as more masculine and likes to dress accordingly. My wife reminds her she's a girl. 

Thats because she is. In today's world, this can be child abuse. 

I'm trying to be civil here, but you honestly sound so ridiculous repeating these right-wing lies. No, it's not child abuse to tell your daughter that she's a girl. Nobody would legit say your wife's daughter is being abusive for saying that.

I do believe that if a child had legit signs of gender dysphoria, it would be child abuse to not get them medical help, but that's not the same as a girl being a tomboy. It's like how it would be child abuse to deny a kid food, but nobody is going to call you abusive for limiting how much food your kids can have.

9 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Fast forward a few years, and her daughter told her mom she thinks she may be gay. Imagine if she had started gender affirming her as male, just because she said she was. Asking questions isn't the same as rejecting.

OMG! That's not how it works! If she honestly thought her daughter was trans, she'd have to take her to a doctor and a very long process would beging in which doctors and therapists try to figure out if she actually has gender dysphoria.

This is why we need more education on trans issues in schools. So many people still think that if a young boy wears his mom's high heels one day, they immediately cut his junk off and make him a girl.

[CdnFox]

46 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

It's transphobic because it's a dog whistle. What people really mean when they say this is that you can't transition.

Do you guys  ever notice how many of her arguments MUST begin by explaining what OTHER people meant? Her entire way of thinking hinges on being able to rewrite what other people say to fit her narrative.  She constantly has to say "what you REALLY mean"  so that she can ignore the fact she can't argue with what you said and insert something she can argue with.

Reminds me of that interview with Peterson where the interviewer got clobbered for saying "what you're saying is" till she painted herself into a corner.     It's so childish.

46 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

It's like how it's not anti-jewish to condemn George Soros, but most of the times when Soros is being brought up, he's being used as a dog whistle for Jews. Same with "Chicago" or "thugs" and black people.

 

You are literally the only one here who brings up Soros.  Or the jews. We get that you hate the jews. Just let it go.

[Perspektiv]

2 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

In America there are two genders, but it depends on the society.

You do appreciate, that people have been called bigoted for saying this, right?

2 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

It's really not heavy to let kids know that trans people exist.

I don't disagree. I think its wrong however, to teach gender in a way that in trying to be inclusive to a minute percentile, ends up confusing other kids who otherwise would have been fine.

2 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

School is about education

I agree. Activism has no business there.

2 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

education

Education conducted by activists becomes indoctrination.

2 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

So many people still think that if a young boy wears his mom's high heels one day, they immediately cut his junk off and make him a girl.

No, but some feel that if that said boy stated they were a woman, they would be, end of. I don't see what is transphobic for questioning some things.

[Americana Antifa]

Just now, Perspektiv said:

You do appreciate, that people have been called bigoted for saying this, right?

Duh, because context matters. It's like saying people have been called racist for saying nigga.

When people say there are two genders, they're usually conflating gender with sex as a way of saying that people can't transition genders. Whereas I'm acknowledging that gender is a social construct and not every society has two genders.

Just now, Perspektiv said:

I don't disagree. I think its wrong however, to teach gender in a way that in trying to be inclusive to a minute percentile, ends up confusing other kids who otherwise would have been fine.

But is it really confusing kids? Is there any evidence that schools are teaching gender in a way that is in any way harming or confusing kids?

Just now, Perspektiv said:

I agree. Activism has no business there.

Education conducted by activists becomes indoctrination.

But the Right is just calling any education they don't like "indoctrination" and "activism." Is it indoctrination to teach that the earth is billions of years old? Creationists would say yes, that's indoctrinating kids into Atheism.

What's really going on is that conservativism is built on lies and they don't like that schools are teaching truth.

Just now, Perspektiv said:

No, but some feel that if that said boy stated they were a woman, they would be, end of. I don't see what is transphobic for questioning some things.

It's not transphobic to question some things, but conservatives usually ask questions in bad faith. And when it comes to right-wing media, they're constantly lying about what's really going on because they want us to think that kids are getting trans surgeries constantly.

[Americana Antifa]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

She constantly has to say "what you REALLY mean" 

So stop dog whistling. Why are fascists such betas? Just say what you mean.

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Reminds me of that interview with Peterson where the interviewer got clobbered for saying "what you're saying is" till she painted herself into a corner.

That's because Peterson doesn't dog whistle, his brain is just soup.

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

You are literally the only one here who brings up Soros.  Or the jews. We get that you hate the jews. Just let it go.

You have to lie about what I said because you know I'm correct.

Again, why are fascists such betas? I point out that y'all dog whistle about the Jews and your response is basically "I know you are but what am I?"

[CdnFox]

23 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

So stop dog whistling.

Deflection! Reflection! GET BACK HERE WITH THOSE GOALPOSTS!!!

BTW - in case anyone missed it 'dog whistle' is another way of saying "so what you're REALLY saying is.."

23 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Why are fascists such betas? Just say what you mean.

LOL - once again - "what you REALLY mean is.."

23 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

That's because Peterson doesn't dog whistle, his brain is just soup.

And yet he won that debate so strongly it became legend. It seriously kickstarted him in the public sphere.  And all because people who say 'what you REALLY mean is"  wind up looking stupid.

Here. Have a lobster. 

23 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

You have to lie about what I said because you know I'm correct.

Still talking to that mirror i see   Typical leftie - accuse others of what they themselves do.

23 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Again, why are fascists such betas? I point out that y'all dog whistle about the Jews and your response is basically "I know you are but what am I?"

Nobody brings up the jews but you.

So what you're  REALLY saying is.... you  know you're in the wrong and you're having trouble coping  

[Perspektiv]

30 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

But is it really confusing kids?

Yes.

30 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Is there any evidence that schools are teaching gender in a way that is in any way harming or confusing kids?

Quite a bit of it, and some have come under fire for it.

30 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

any education they don't like "indoctrination" and "activism."

I've only seen critical race theory and trans ideology being called that. Done by activists, its essentially telling white people they're irredeemable for what their race has done in the past. This isn't teaching anything. Trans ideology, at times is teaching that gender doesn't exist, and there are unlimited pronouns. I wonder how this could confuse a child, who before this likely knew themselves as being a boy or a girl.

34 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

they want us to think that kids are getting trans surgeries constantly.

So there hasn't been a spike of youth under 18 who have undergone HRT treatment?

[Americana Antifa]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Yes.

Quite a bit of it, and some have come under fire for it.

Can you show me some examples?

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

I've only seen critical race theory and trans ideology being called that.

That kind of proves my point. "Critical race theory" and "trans ideology" are both just meaningless catch-all terms used by the Right to cover any thing racial or trans-related that they don't want kids learning about. Basically, they did to those terms what they did to "woke." In the case of CRT, it's kind of an open secret.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory

Rufo basically admitted that he launched a campaign to redefine what CRT originally meant so it can be used in propaganda. Now conservatives can say kids are being "indoctrinated" into "critical race theory" and what they really mean is kids are being taught that slavery was a thing.

It's always the same thing with right-wing propaganda. They'll pick something they don't like, then redefine a word or term to wage a war against, so that they can demonize the actual thing they don't like. They don't like people knowing about social injustice, so they're against "wokeness." They don't like education, so they're against "indoctrination." They don't like people learning about historical racism, so they're against "critical race theory." They don't like trans people, so they're against "trans ideology."

Quote

Done by activists, its essentially telling white people they're irredeemable for what their race has done in the past. This isn't teaching anything. Trans ideology, at times is teaching that gender doesn't exist, and there are unlimited pronouns. I wonder how this could confuse a child, who before this likely knew themselves as being a boy or a girl.

See how successful right-wing propaganda is? CRT doesn't say white people are naturally and irredeemably racist, but right-wing media told that lie over and over, now many people think the theory actually says that.

And no, it's not that gender doesn't exist, it's that it's a social construct. Social constructs obviously exist.

Quote

So there hasn't been a spike of youth under 18 who have undergone HRT treatment?

Yes, but that doesn't mean there isn't a long and complex path to transitioning. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Americana Antifa

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Americana Antifa said:

"Critical race theory" and "trans ideology" are both just meaningless catch-all terms used by the Right to cover any thing racial or trans-related that they don't want kids learning about.

Another little trick she likes to pull -  any term which was introduced by the left but is now being seen by the general public as being a bad thing SUDDENLY becomes a "trick of the right" that they use to explain "everything".  And therefore we shouldn't use that term anymore and anyone who does hasn't got a point they just "Don't Like" something

Its kind of the 'other' version of redefining everything to suit their needs on the fly.  If a word doesn't mean what you want it to just redefine it - and if its a word you DON"T like then just redefine it to mean nothing

Sorry kiddo - the concerns around Trans ideology  and politics is very real and so is "critical race theory".  You can't make that go away by simply PRETENDING that it's not a thing or that people don't have valid concerns.  They do.

 

[Perspektiv]

7 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

CRT doesn't say white people are naturally and irredeemably racist

Teaching kids overt and covert racism, often results in the child feeling that unless they fight racism on a daily basis, vs treat everyone with respect, you're conflating activism with education. Activism doesn't belong in school.

7 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

Social constructs obviously exist.

The united states isn't a racist country. Teaching anything that remotely implies this, is activism and based on a lie.

7 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

Yes

That's why some parents are entitled to be concerned. HRT, is a permanent change to a human body. If a child is presented theories that make them question, "protections" that allow schools to withhold this from the parent and wind up detransitioning, this is an insanely reckless missuse of the school system, which is supposed to educate. Leave medical treatments or recommendations to professionals.

 

[Michael Hardner]

41 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

 Leave medical treatments or recommendations to professionals.

 

Medical professionals support using hormone blockers in some instances. Anyway, you arguing bad faith.

[Perspektiv]

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Sorry kiddo - the concerns around Trans ideology  and politics is very real and so is "critical race theory".  You can't make that go away by simply PRETENDING that it's not a thing or that people don't have valid concerns.  They do.

Until someone articulate who doesn't demonize the other side, will you get extremists running their respective countries into the ground, and sewing division.

Trans rights should be respected, just as concerns about HRT should be listened to. Neither are discriminatory. 

Same deal with critical race theory. 

Race should be talked about in school, on a historical basis. History needs to be taught, not shaming you for being part of a country that has a dark past.

But to present it in a way that pushes victimhood vs history, doesn't do anything but divide and anger. 

That anger doesn't do anything if directed at the past. Destroying old statues doesn't do anything. 

Its using the same narssissistic negative advocate building tactics Trump did, but since its for the "correct side" its fine.

[Americana Antifa]

7 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Teaching kids overt and covert racism, often results in the child feeling that unless they fight racism on a daily basis, vs treat everyone with respect, you're conflating activism with education. Activism doesn't belong in school.

So you're saying we shouldn't teach kids that slavery happened?

By this logic, we shouldn't teach kids about anything bad that ever happened. We can't teach kids about the Rwandan Genocide because then they'll want to fight genocide and that's activism. We can't teach kids about poverty because then they'll want to fight poverty.

Aside from the fact that kids should want to build a better world, what you're saying is basically that we just shouldn't teach history.

7 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

The united states isn't a racist country. Teaching anything that remotely implies this, is activism and based on a lie.

That's not what CRT says. The idea of CRT and Critical Theory in general is that systemic discrimination can exist in a way that isn't literal law.

So for example, the law doesn't say police must target poor people. But because of the private prison industry, police are forced to make arrests for minor infractions. However, those infractions don't always hold up in court if the suspect has a good lawyer. So police target poor people, who are not only more likely to do crime because of material conditions, but also can't afford good lawyers.

Because of the system, poor people end up getting targeted. It's systemic classism without the law actually saying cops must be classist.

7 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

That's why some parents are entitled to be concerned. HRT, is a permanent change to a human body. If a child is presented theories that make them question, "protections" that allow schools to withhold this from the parent and wind up detransitioning, this is an insanely reckless missuse of the school system, which is supposed to educate. Leave medical treatments or recommendations to professionals.

Kids can't get HRT without permission from their parents and doctors.

The policy you're referring to regarding teachers and parents is about if teachers should tell parents if they see signs of homosexuality or gender dysphoria in a student whose parents are homophobic or transphobic. Usually when this comes up, the staff will have a meeting and decide what to do, then they might have a meeting with the parents. If they honestly believe that letting the parents know their kids, for examples, has a crush on a kid of the same gender, will result in violence at home, I don't blame them for keeping it a secret.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Americana Antifa

[Perspektiv]

59 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

So you're saying we shouldn't teach kids that slavery happened?

That's not at all what am saying. Slavery is part of history.

1 hour ago, Americana Antifa said:

By this logic, we shouldn't teach kids about anything bad that ever happened.

No, we should. In the context that keeps things historical. 

I.E Balance and objectivity. You can't talk about how it started, without talking about how it was abolished. About white slave owners, without white champions of the abolitionist movement. More importantly, talking about black affluent slave owners, which point to this being the norm. Prominent slaves, without talking about black champions of freedom.

Omitting balance deliberately, creates a bias. History is to inform. People should be allowed to form their own opinions, by presenting them all sides.

How slaves were treated, rape and the like, to me doesn't belong in the classroom in my opinion. 

1 hour ago, Americana Antifa said:

We can't teach kids about the Rwandan Genocide because then they'll want to fight genocide and that's activism.

Of course we can, and doing so objectively is the point am making (just like above).

1 hour ago, Americana Antifa said:

Aside from the fact that kids should want to build a better world

Then teach them to be good human beings. They'll through it, be the drop of water towards such change.

I grew up around mostly deadbeat dads, and men who treated women like s***.

As a black man no less, I could easily try to protest things, or just live my life the opposite. I knew who I was so moved accordingly. I stuck to libraries and school, vs streets and drugs. I treat women as equals, and married a woman who is as powerful as she is a boss.

I could Twitter flex about things, or just be. Goes a longer way than whining about how horrible the world is (to simply be part of what makes the world better). One of these, does f*** all.

1 hour ago, Americana Antifa said:

poor people end up getting targeted

Poor people, or people who live in areas that are crime riddled that happen to be poor? I live in an affluent neighborhood--only time you'll see cops here, is when they're sitting and joking around in one of the high end cafe's nearby. Am sorry, but there isn't a system holding down black people.

People have the power to make personal choices, and for these, there unfortunately are consequences--including crime.

1 hour ago, Americana Antifa said:

I don't blame them for keeping it a secret.

I have seen plenty of cases, where parents were kept in the dark as children had begun to transition, and there had been no note of violence at home.

Some parents have gone against schools for this, one of which had a daughter who could have committed suicide, as she was provided all this "help", but didn't have her mother to support her. This isn't a teacher's job.

There are counselors to help, for a reason. This is a teacher stepping way out of their bounds, professionally.

We are allowing teachers to be activists, and when you blur the line between educating and this, you in my humble opinion, wind up doing more damage than good.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Until someone articulate who doesn't demonize the other side, will you get extremists running their respective countries into the ground, and sewing division.

I think you'll find that even with articulate people discussing the issues reasonably the Extremists are going to want to flip the chessboard and make it divisive again.

Look no further than Antifa's response to you for proof

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Trans rights should be respected, just as concerns about HRT should be listened to. Neither are discriminatory. 

Same deal with critical race theory. 

Race should be talked about in school, on a historical basis. History needs to be taught, not shaming you for being part of a country that has a dark past.

But to present it in a way that pushes victimhood vs history, doesn't do anything but divide and anger. 

Of course. And i think reasonable people would all agree that teaching the facts of history is important, and being dispassionate about it rather than pushing it as part of an agenda make sense. But that doesn't suit the more radical agendas. 

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

That anger doesn't do anything if directed at the past. Destroying old statues doesn't do anything. 

Its using the same narssissistic negative advocate building tactics Trump did, but since its for the "correct side" its fine.

To be honest - trump wasn't first. That was Obama. He won by building the 'intersectional coalition' initially and exploiting divisions.  He would continue to do so for both terms in office.  "If I'd have had a son, he'd look like Travon Martin".

Trump just picked up the pieces left behind and ran with them.

Creating division and then weaponizing it for political gain has been a very effective political tool going back to before roman times. It's quick, its easy, it works. 

Unfortunately, fear and anger are still the two most motivating factors for humans, and stoking those things as the left does works. And it inspires others to do the same, and we get into a spiral dive.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Americana Antifa said:

So you're saying we shouldn't teach kids that slavery happened?

 LOL - here we go again.  "So what you're really saying is (makes ridiculous claim) " Once again the truth simply doesn't suit her agenda. So she makes some shit up and argues that instead.

Boy - you sure don' t have to look hard to see which side is dishonest and knows it   LOL

[Perspektiv]

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Extremists are going to want to flip the chessboard and make it divisive again.

Probably why I never got into politics. Am peaceful. My wife wanted to make a run in politics as we both have strong political families, but I told her for our marriage's sake--to pursue something else. She genuinely cares and has tons of strong policies in mind, but its not what bothers me--its the fact that she would have her name slung into the dirt, by opponents wanting to sew division, including my name. Yeah, no thanks.

Also, if you care, politics isn't the game for you. Its a dirty game. The point is to make people buy that you care, and advance your agenda as you see fit, which is why at the end of their terms, so many politicians have upheld so few of their promises.

12 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Antifa's response to you

To me, this is the epitome of what is dangerous about the far left. They sell victimhood. Their "well meaning" ways, have literally destroyed the black community, which for many are entirely dependent on the government to survive. They'd rather virtue signal than actually try to fix issues.

Leave it to the far left, to tell you men are women, fat is skinny and healthy and lies only apply to opposition.

15 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But that doesn't suit the more radical agendas. 

Unfortunately. I truly miss the political days, of falling asleep during a president's speech, because its so boring and well wishing.

59 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

To be honest - trump wasn't first

He wasn't, but was one of the most divisive politicians I have ever seen. That's saying something, as am in Canada under Trudeau.

I'd like to see the return to common sense, and articulate politicians that don't need to sling dirt, to get the job done, but I have this feeling that those days are long gone.

Soon enough, if you're a lesbian and reject trans penis, there will be something inherently wrong with you.

If your husband transitions to being your wife and ditches their family to pursue their "true selves", you wanting a divorce makes you a horrible person.

Pathetic, what is unfolding in this world.

[CdnFox]

34 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Also, if you care, politics isn't the game for you

This is largely true.  I mean, you CAN care a little but your primary attribute has to be the thirst to succeed even if it means cutting throats or setting aside your values when it'll get you ahread. Otherwise you just wont' make it very far. Ask Judy Wilson-raybould.

Quote

To me, this is the epitome of what is dangerous about the far left. They sell victimhood.

Nothing motivates like fear or anger. A lot of those who abuse religions take advantage of that. Be obedient and Give money or go to hell. Fight those guys over there, they dared to offend your god(s).  The good religious people don't need to do that but the scammers will use it like a club to bludgeon people with.

And as discussed in another thread ,the far left these days is eerily like a religion.

38 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

He wasn't, but was one of the most divisive politicians I have ever seen. That's saying something, as am in Canada under Trudeau.

Trudeau is worse by a long shot. Trump took divisions that were already there and played them. Trudeau created the divisions and hightened them. We are MASSIVELY more divided than ever and not just as a country, but people towards other people as well. I doubt it will ever go back to the way it was when neighbours helped you build a barn when you showed up.

A more interesting and subtle question is who was worse - trump or obama? Trump on the face of it was fighting with everyone so it's easy to jump to the conclusion he was. But - most of those divisions were there all ready.  That's what Clinton was trying to tap into with her basket of deplorables.

Obama weaponized the intersectional groups very effectively in his first campaign and that lead to a lot of the later divisions. The left AND right began to take it from there but it was the dems under obama who tried to foster that to create a strong voter base. That would fizzle a little for his second run, and just wasnt' there for hillary. But the divisions caused remained, and trump just kind of played around in it.

It actually is complicated when you start to dig down, more so than you'd think at first glance,

But yeah - trudeau is hands down the worst. This country was fairly unified under harper. It is now ripped to shreds and people are furious at each other. I see it every day.

[Perspektiv]

21 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Trudeau is worse by a long shot.

You're right, if eluding to policy only.

Trudeau is far superior at crafting his image where it matters.

[Americana Antifa]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

That's not at all what am saying. Slavery is part of history.

You said: Teaching kids overt and covert racism, often results in the child feeling that unless they fight racism on a daily basis, vs treat everyone with respect, you're conflating activism with education. Activism doesn't belong in school.

So what is your argument here? Should we teach slavery but ignore the racism? But wouldn't that still make kids want to fight against worker exploitation? That would be activism too.

Wouldn't it be better to just stop with this safe space nonsense and teach history as it is?

 

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I.E Balance and objectivity. You can't talk about how it started, without talking about how it was abolished. About white slave owners, without white champions of the abolitionist movement. More importantly, talking about black affluent slave owners, which point to this being the norm. Prominent slaves, without talking about black champions of freedom.

Omitting balance deliberately, creates a bias. History is to inform. People should be allowed to form their own opinions, by presenting them all sides.

That's literally how it's taught now. Maybe teachers should go into detail about the black slave-owners, native American slave-owners, and slavery outside of America, just to show how common it once was. But what you're describing is pretty much already how slavery is taught.

But according to the Right, this is CRT and must be banned.

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

How slaves were treated, rape and the like, to me doesn't belong in the classroom in my opinion. 

Well yeah, we don't need to go super into detail in grade school. Maybe in high school, they can talk about things like rape.

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Then teach them to be good human beings. They'll through it, be the drop of water towards such change.

But you're saying we shouldn't teach about racism because it might make kids want to fight against racism.

So you're saying teach them to be good human beings, but don't teach anything that might make them want to actually cause good in the world.

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Poor people, or people who live in areas that are crime riddled that happen to be poor? I live in an affluent neighborhood--only time you'll see cops here, is when they're sitting and joking around in one of the high end cafe's nearby. Am sorry, but there isn't a system holding down black people.

Well I don't believe in systemic racism either. I think liberal politicians just use racism to deflect from the real problem, which is capitalism.

But the point is that the core of CRT is a racial version of the core of Critical Theory, which is that systems can be oppressive without actually being law. When Republicans say that CRT says all white people are racist, America will always be racist, they're just lying. And Rufo admitted this.

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

We are allowing teachers to be activists, and when you blur the line between educating and this, you in my humble opinion, wind up doing more damage than good.

But by "activists," what do you mean?

If a child is saying or doing something that might get them abused at home, teachers generally don't tell the parents, at least not right away. They'll have meetings and discuss what the safest option is. It's not just with gay or trans stuff, it's like this with anything that they feel might cause problems.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Americana Antifa