Is Canada a full democracy?

[Aristides]

9 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Where did I call you names?  I looked back through the comments and could not find one place.

You label people you don't agree with. 

[blackbird]

58 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You label people you don't agree with. 

Yes, I referred to leftism and leftists, but that is not the same as calling you names, which you falsely claimed. 

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Yes, I referred to leftism and leftists, but that is not the same as calling you names, which you falsely claimed. 

How do you know? Because we may disagree on something you reserve the right to label me whether it is accurate or not.

[blackbird]

7 hours ago, Aristides said:

Bull, all you do is go on about the left which is no more a single thing than the right.

7 hours ago, Aristides said:

Bull, all you do is go on about the left which is no more a single thing than the right.

6 hours ago, Aristides said:

It means people like you who see the "left" as some kind of entity. Your labeling me is proof you are just as much of a problem.

Your obvious defence of the left proves which side you are on.  

[Aristides]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Your obvious defence of the left proves which side you are on.  

I don't "defend the left", whatever the hell that means. You have a black and white view of the world where everything is left or right with no in between. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Aristides

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, Aristides said:

You have a black and white view of the world where everything is left or right with no in between. 

You want to be seen as in between but when you vote, you are most likely voting for one of two sides.  Either the left (Trudeau, Liberals, NDP) or Conservative.  That is pretty black and white.  The NDP have joined with Liberals to form a coalition of the left.  Couldn't be more clear.

[Aristides]

21 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You want to be seen as in between but when you vote, you are most likely voting for one of two sides.  Either the left (Trudeau, Liberals, NDP) or Conservative.  That is pretty black and white.  The NDP have joined with Liberals to form a coalition of the left.  Couldn't be more clear.

We all get only one vote. Trudeau should have been kicking horse turds down the road after the last election if the CPC could ever get its shit together. I'm tired of holding my nose regardless of how I vote. I want someone to give me something I can vote for.

[Aristides]

The fact is, most Canadians are fundamentally centrist and they see the Liberals as being closer to the centre than the CPC. Until the loony fringe of the CPC gets that into their thick sculls, the party will remain in opposition.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, Aristides said:

The fact is, most Canadians are fundamentally centrist and they see the Liberals as being closer to the centre than the CPC. Until the loony fringe of the CPC gets that into their thick sculls, the party will remain in opposition.

What?  The Liberals have become far left.  The Conservatives are slightly left of centre.  Your metrics are way off.  How you can possibly think this way in a context of children becoming trans at school without parents being informed, assisted suicide and hard drugs laws becoming the most permissive in the world, and government attempting to ban free speech, campuses and workplaces becoming inquisition zones of cancel culture…

Get your head out of CBC, CTV, and TorStar for 5 minutes.  

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

What?  The Liberals have become far left.  The Conservatives are slightly left of centre.  Your metrics are way off.  How you can possibly think this way in a context of children becoming trans at school without parents being informed, assisted suicide and hard drugs laws becoming the most permissive in the world, and government attempting to ban free speech, campuses and workplaces becoming inquisition zones of cancel culture…

Get your head out of CBC, CTV, and TorStar for 5 minutes.  

I think assisted suicide should be easily available to anyone who wants it, and the government should legalize and control all drugs currently against the law to use. 

I think parents should always be informed of a child's behaviour at school, if there is any reason to think they would want to know.

I also support freedom of speech beyond where most people might like to go, and I absolutely abhor the fact that campuses and workplaces are becoming inquisition zones of cancel culture. (though I wouldn't try and stop them, due to my views on freedom of speech)

I obviously don't know my left from my right.

Except that all my views are pro-freedom.

Maybe I'm some kind of Libertarian...

 

[Zeitgeist]

10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I think assisted suicide should be easily available to anyone who wants it, and the government should legalize and control all drugs currently against the law to use. 

I think parents should always be informed of a child's behaviour at school, if there is any reason to think they would want to know.

I also support freedom of speech beyond where most people might like to go, and I absolutely abhor the fact that campuses and workplaces are becoming inquisition zones of cancel culture. (though I wouldn't try and stop them, due to my views on freedom of speech)

I obviously don't know my left from my right.

Except that all my views are pro-freedom.

Maybe I'm some kind of Libertarian...

 

Do you think powers of attorney should be able to have the “mentally unfit to make medical decisions” killed?  This will result in mass murder, government sanctioned.  If it’s allowed for kids, many horrific abuses will happen.

Canada is in the grip of pretty diabolical forces.  Just be careful if you criticize the regime, as your views may be unacceptable and fall under banned/compelled speech laws…

Much can be done that won’t look bad for CBC cameras.  No one has to see bank accounts frozen.

Canada is the most radical left country of any western (former?) democracy.  

Edited February 19, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Do you think powers of attorney should be able to have the “mentally unfit to make medical decisions” killed?  This will result in mass murder, government sanctioned.  If it’s allowed for kids, many horrific abuses will happen.

Canada is in the grip of pretty diabolical forces.  Just be careful if you criticize the regime, as your views may be unacceptable and fall under banned/compelled speech laws…

Much can be done that won’t look bad for CBC cameras.  No one has to see bank accounts frozen.

Sure, that's your view, but that we differ on certain things is a no brainer.  My point was that differences between left and right are more obscure than you think.

Canada is not in the grip of diabolical forces.  It's just that more people vote for the politicians you don't like than vote for the politicians you do.

I live in Alberta.  I put up with that all the time.

I agree about the bank accounts.  Odd thing that.  I don't remember ever seeing that done before.   I don't even know how that is legal.  If someone has the rationale for that, I'd love to read it.

 

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Sure, that's your view, but that we differ on certain things is a no brainer.  My point was that differences between left and right are more obscure than you think.

Canada is not in the grip of diabolical forces.  It's just that more people vote for the politicians you don't like than vote for the politicians you do.

I live in Alberta.  I put up with that all the time.

I agree about the bank accounts.  Odd thing that.  I don't remember ever seeing that done before.   I don't even know how that is legal.  If someone has the rationale for that, I'd love to read it.

 

Failed healthcare?  Increase euthanasia 

Failed law enforcement, social services, increased fentanyl deaths?  Legalize hard drugs and throw cases out involving firearms.

 I wonder just how extensively the Mexican drug cartels have moved in.

Less resource development, higher taxes and cost of living, less free speech, reduced meritocracy…

More than half of recent immigrants leave Canada after 5 years.  

Edited February 19, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Failed healthcare?  Increase euthanasia 

Failed law enforcement, social services, increased fentanyl deaths?  Legalize hard drugs and throw cases out involving firearms.

 I wonder just how extensively the Mexico can drug cartels have moved in.

Less resource development, higher taxes and cost of living, less free speech, reduced meritocracy…

More than half of recent immigrants leave Canada after 5 years.  

Well, healthcare is certainly a problem.  I certainly would support efforts to introduce some private medicine options to our system.

MAID I support fully.  I would make it less restrictive. I'm a freedom sort of guy.

If you don't want criminals involved in the drug trade. legalize the lot, and implement government control of the production and distribution.  You'd sure make them mad.

Conscientious and sustainable resource development I remain in favour of.  I don't see any alternative right now.

I like taxes.  I don't like wasted taxes.

I like meritocracy too.  It's served me well.

I'm an immigrant and I've been here since 1984.  I've never considered living anywhere else.  If others do, more power to them.

[myata]

10 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Our parties are run as top down hierarchies.  An MP who is party leader vs an MP in cabinet vs an MP on the backbench is not providing equal democratic representation of their constituents.  The PM uses their power to enforce their agenda on the others.

Someone was quoting ratings but that summarizes the status quo pretty well. Now, add that your choice is restricted to the absolute minimum: either this default management corporation, or that (by the simplest notion that if you wouldn't put your finger for one, the other wins by default). Now, in what relation is this picture to a) democracy and b) modern, functional, effective and transparent full democracy?

[Aristides]

9 hours ago, myata said:

Someone was quoting ratings but that summarizes the status quo pretty well. Now, add that your choice is restricted to the absolute minimum: either this default management corporation, or that (by the simplest notion that if you wouldn't put your finger for one, the other wins by default). Now, in what relation is this picture to a) democracy and b) modern, functional, effective and transparent full democracy?

Concentration of power in the PMO and iron party discipline is something we have done to ourselves and not a feature in many other parliamentary systems like the UK where it is not uncommon for MP's to vote against the party line. That is not a left or right issue, both parties have been responsible.

[Michael Hardner]

8 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Concentration of power in the PMO and iron party discipline is something we have done to ourselves  .

Also the invisible deputy minister as a power broker in Canada.

[blackbird]

15 hours ago, Aristides said:

most Canadians are fundamentally centrist

Centrist is leftism and that is what is destroying the west.  So-called centrists are the ones who voted for Liberals and NDP.  We have one of the worst governments in history.  They failed in almost every department, pushed Canada into worse depravity, caused massive divisions between Canadians, opened the border to thousands of illegal migrants to just walk in and get on the dole, and made the cost of living out of reach for millions of Canadians, pushed their ridiculous climate agenda costing Canadians billions of dollars, and created a massive debt.  Now U.S. authorities are even paying for bus tickets for illegal migrants to come to the Roxham border crossing and enter illegally while the Trudeau government does nothing about it.  Thank the Liberals and NDP and their leftist supporters.

Edited February 19, 2023 by blackbird

[Aristides]

13 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Centrist is leftism and that is what is destroying the west.  So-called centrists are the ones who voted for Liberals and NDP.  We have one of the worst governments in history.  They failed in almost every department, pushed Canada into worse depravity, caused massive divisions between Canadians, opened the border to thousands of illegal migrants to just walk in and get on the dole, and made the cost of living out of reach for millions of Canadians, pushed their ridiculous climate agenda costing Canadians billions of dollars, and created a massive debt.  Now U.S. authorities are even paying for bus tickets for illegal migrants to come to the Roxham border crossing and enter illegally while the Trudeau government does nothing about it.  Thank the Liberals and NDP and their leftist supporters.

You call centrists leftists and then accuse others of being divisive. 

[blackbird]

12 hours ago, bcsapper said:

MAID I support fully.  I would make it less restrictive. I'm a freedom sort of guy.

If you don't want criminals involved in the drug trade. legalize the lot, and implement government control of the production and distribution.  You'd sure make them mad.

I like taxes.  I don't like wasted taxes.

You realize you admit you have no morals or ethics at all.  That is extreme liberalism or progessivism which is destroying western society.  You seem quite lucid and rational in other ways and capable of reasoning.  How is it you don't believe in God and his written revelation to mankind?  Why would you automatically assume that freedom to do whatever a person wants is rational or moral.  Do you believe there is such a thing as right and wrong, good and bad, moral and immoral?  Why do you assume a free-for-all for everyone is sensible?  Do you not realize that historically there have always been Biblical principles in western society that governs how people should live?  There have always been limits to what anyone can do in a civilized society?  The Biblical laws, commands, and guidance are there for a reason.  They are there to protect mankind from the evils in his own heart.  Without that man has proven over and over he will simply self-destruct.  Why would you support that?

[blackbird]

8 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You call centrists leftists and then accuse others of being divisive. 

Yes, I realize it is divisive.  I make no apologies for speaking the truth.  Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable for those on the wrong side of it.  If you voted for Trudeau or NDP you voted for the most divisive government in history.  You need to take responsibility.  Since you are defending leftism, you are partly responsible for the mess but you are unapologetic and think you are correct in supporting leftism.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Do you believe there is such a thing as right and wrong, good and bad, moral and immoral?

Sure I do.  It's wrong, bad and immoral to make someone carry on living when they would rather die.

It's wrong, bad and immoral to insist others live their lives based on your fairy tales.

As for the drugs and taxes, that just makes sense.

[blackbird]

24 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You call centrists leftists and then accuse others of being divisive. 

Did you vote for this government (Liberal or NDP)?  They are one of the most unethical governments in Canada's history?

"The Trudeau Liberals have an obvious ethics problem that has expanded to nearly every corner of government, but it’s one they refuse to acknowledge. Even when presented with objective facts of ethical breaches, they play dumb, as if they didn’t know the rules. Common sense may very well take its leave of someone once they are sworn in as a Liberal minister, but pleading ignorance is a poor excuse for repeated unethical behaviour. The problem has become so dire, it’s managed to bring the ethics commissioner to his wit’s end."

NP View: Canada’s stubbornly unethical Liberal government (msn.com)

[Aristides]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Did you vote for this government (Liberal or NDP)?  They are one of the most unethical governments in Canada's history?

"The Trudeau Liberals have an obvious ethics problem that has expanded to nearly every corner of government, but it’s one they refuse to acknowledge. Even when presented with objective facts of ethical breaches, they play dumb, as if they didn’t know the rules. Common sense may very well take its leave of someone once they are sworn in as a Liberal minister, but pleading ignorance is a poor excuse for repeated unethical behaviour. The problem has become so dire, it’s managed to bring the ethics commissioner to his wit’s end."

NP View: Canada’s stubbornly unethical Liberal government (msn.com)

Who I vote for is none of your business and I don't care who you vote for. That's your business.

[myata]

57 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Concentration of power in the PMO and iron party discipline is something we have done to ourselves and not a feature in many other parliamentary systems like the UK where it is not uncommon for MP's to vote against the party line

Indeed. I would say that any FPTP-based system is naturally predisposed to a strong partisan division, and it is really difficult to argue that. Unique and strong democracies like UK and USA have consciously, deliberately and meticulously worked out intelligent and effective, to an extent, mechanisms and forms to mitigate that trait. But Canada never even cared to think or notice.

And now the partisan status quo is entrenched and cemented to such an extent that no meaningful change is possible any longer because it would by definition disadvantage both of the default parties, at this time having really not a lot common with genuine parliamentary parties in real democracies. That is a one way tunnel that Canada has got into entirely by own efforts (or rather absence of intelligent involvement and responsibility) and I personally don't have an idea how this could be solved going forward in the medium term. One obvious possibility is a chronically spreading general crisis of public administration. Are we seeing the first symptoms?