Why are governments driving down wages with immigration?

[Moonbox]

56 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

The comparison works quite well and you know it. In order to continue successfully more and more and ever more immigrants have to be brought in and in ever greater numbers. 

I think you need to stop telling me what I know, because it's very different than what you think you know.  

56 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Slippery slope? It's more like a cliff. And I know very well how our economy works, thanks. I also know that government is funded by 50% of the population while the rest get their services for free. And that the more people in that second category the harder it is for those in the first category it is to pay for them.

Sure, but then that second category is being expanded steadily by a tax system full of loopholes that mostly benefit the very top 10% of taxpayers, at the expense of a shrinking middle class.  It's almost like this is a multi-faceted problem requiring more than clichéd anti-immigration natter. 

 

56 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Because we've tried nothing and so obviously nothing will work. I'm not a demographics expert, not one in propaganda. I do know that the culture/values of our population have changed radically in a short period of time with the aid of the singular propaganda focus of our progressive media.

Okay, so you have no suggestions on how to stabilize our population and increase the birth rates (which is absolutely necessary), and as a substitute you offer conspiracy theories about the media.  Got it.  ?

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

In less than 20 years 51% of the population will be foreign born and their Canadian born kids.

Some would say in the last 200 years close to 99% of the population is foreign born.

Quote

Given we were already bringing people over so fast we weren't able to properly integrate them - and that we've substantially increased that intake, Canada's culture and values, not to mention the governments elected, will become a product of what these foreigners and their kids desire with scant regard for Canadian traditions and values - including freedom of speech, religion and the commitment to democracy, compromise and trust.

We did more to blow away local values when we embraced globalism over two decades ago.  As always, trying to point this out when it was happening usually garnered nothing but scorn and accusations of communism (yawn) from the usual suspects.

You in a word.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1992/03/jihad-vs-mcworld/303882/

Quote

Jihad vs. McWorld

The two axial principles of our age—tribalism and globalism—clash at every point except one: they may both be threatening to democracy

By Benjamin R. Barber

MARCH 1992 ISSUE Atlantic Monthly

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Just beyond the horizon of current events lie two possible political futures—both bleak, neither democratic. The first is a retribalization of large swaths of humankind by war and bloodshed: a threatened Lebanonization of national states in which culture is pitted against culture, people against people, tribe against tribe—a Jihad in the name of a hundred narrowly conceived faiths against every kind of interdependence, every kind of artificial social cooperation and civic mutuality. The second is being borne in on us by the onrush of economic and ecological forces that demand integration and uniformity and that mesmerize the world with fast music, fast computers, and fast food—with MTV, Macintosh, and McDonald's, pressing nations into one commercially homogenous global network: one McWorld tied together by technology, ecology, communications, and commerce. The planet is falling precipitantly apart AND coming reluctantly together at the very same moment.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by eyeball

[myata]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

will become a product of what these foreigners and their kids desire with scant regard for Canadian traditions and values

Sounds like a very plausible scenario. Maybe even a given. One question only: what - are - we - thinking - today? Are we?

[herbie]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Canada's culture and values, not to mention the governments elected, will become a product of what these foreigners and their kids desire with scant regard for Canadian traditions and values - including freedom of speech, religion and the commitment to democracy, compromise and trust.

Because you said so? The values you mentioned are the very reasons they come here. So exactly what "traditions and values" do you really think they threaten?

[eyeball]

8 minutes ago, myata said:

Sounds like a very plausible scenario. Maybe even a given. One question only: what - are - we - thinking - today? Are we?

Yes. There's only one answer:

Globalism.

[Aristides]

Well as long as there is a labour shortage, we will have to find people where we can.

[myata]

4 hours ago, Aristides said:

Well as long as there is a labour shortage,

A typical Canadian way of thinking: how to stop-gap the hole, instead of thinking, making and remaking things, processes forward and ahead so that there's no shortage. No need to go anywhere:

- hasten registration of foreign medical professionals

- crazy housing prices

- cutting last old-growth forests, persistent decline in salmon

- outrageously inefficient and failing urban projects

- still no high-speed trains and that's just off the top. We can find it all here.

There's another word for that: "sustainable". Clearly Canada is not, pretty much in anything. Entire country built not on skill and excellence but cut-cut dig-dig move-move and sell-sell; and so, when all fish is drained and all ores dug and sold we're screwed up big deal. Where is the surprise?

Edited December 12, 2022 by myata

[myata]

11 hours ago, Aristides said:

Well as long as there is a labour shortage

Labor shortage is in the low-paying day-to-day jobs. $20-25 max, often not full hours. What kind of life standard can be sustained here if this becomes the norm? More hands means more competition for jobs so buddy-buddies revolving door board room to politics (and back again) won't have to raise wages and improve processes why bother in can just bring more cheap ones from bottomless hole (yes they like bottomless). The default good government will sprinkle a few goodies and just go into the world, find your dream $3,000 apartment. Nope, doesn't look like anyone is thinking and no one is asking. Habit long gone out of fashion.

Edited December 12, 2022 by myata

[myata]

.... so great Canadian buddy-buddies will "expand economy" aka build great number more of factories and businesses totally dependent not on cutting-edge innovation but on cheap foreign labor and the fix will become permanent. Welcome to the (new) third age, the music.... what, already?

Edited December 12, 2022 by myata

[Zeitgeist]

7 hours ago, myata said:

.... so great Canadian buddy-buddies will "expand economy" aka build great number more of factories and businesses totally dependent not on cutting-edge innovation but on cheap foreign labor and the fix will become permanent. Welcome to the (new) third age, the music.... what, already?

Canada is just the designated resettlement country.  Since we now refuse to make any significant military contributions, we make up for it by being the place for migrants from problem places to live: Syrians, Ukrainians, etc.  It’s the new race to the bottom on wages and quality of life.  It’s good to help people in crisis, but we should be at the decision making table to ensure such crises don’t unfold in the first place.  The war in Ukraine was entirely predictable and preventable.  Canada isn’t given a seat at the geopolitical decision-making table because our government clearly won’t fight for Canadian interests, so why should they be trusted to fight for the interests of humanity at large?  Our leaders worry too much about fluff that doesn’t matter, like gender expression and throwing money at green energy tech that’s insufficient to power a healthy democratic civilization.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is just the designated resettlement country.  

Canada from the outset was based on unsustainable, extensive consumption-based social model, from timber, cod, beavers, minerals and so on. We never reflected on that and never attempted to understand it and change, why bother. And now, humans are the new resource so we're using the same default methods cut more, dig more, sell more, bring more in, without a moment's reflection. This is like that crab that never changed in 100 million years because it didn't need to. But can we count on such luck to keep rolling indefinitely?

[I am Groot]

23 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I think you need to stop telling me what I know, because it's very different than what you think you know.  

Well, as it's an incontrovertible fact that almost everyone ought to realize so I had given you credit for realizing it, as well. I guess I gave you too much credit.

23 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Sure, but then that second category is being expanded steadily by a tax system full of loopholes that mostly benefit the very top 10% of taxpayers, at the expense of a shrinking middle class.  It's almost like this is a multi-faceted problem requiring more than clichéd anti-immigration natter. 

If you must reduce this discussion to thoughtless cliche's could you at least make them Canadian ones instead of borrowing from the US? Calling this anti-immigration natter sweepingly rejects the again incontrovertible fact that the massive increases in the supply of labor drives down wages. The government even says so! The banks say so!  Or are you going to deny this? Do you want me to cite further economists or will you just dismiss that all as "anti immigrant natter'? 

Tell me, is there ANY argument of any kind whatsoever against mass immigration that you would accept or would you simply jerk your knee and squeal about anti-immigration? If you want to shitpost Americana why not go down to the American groups below where you'll find like-minded posters? 

23 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Okay, so you have no suggestions on how to stabilize our population

I suppose I could point out that our population was already stable and in fact was growing but I'm guessing facts play no role in your thinking on this topic.

23 hours ago, Moonbox said:

and increase the birth rates (which is absolutely necessary), and as a substitute you offer conspiracy theories about the media.  Got it.  ?

What conspiracy theory did I post? Or are you just jerking that knee wildly again with the usual brainless screech towards anyone who dares to question the sacred policy of mass immigration?

Edited December 12, 2022 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

20 hours ago, myata said:

Sounds like a very plausible scenario. Maybe even a given. One question only: what - are - we - thinking - today? Are we?

Not really. I think much of the Left, and certainly the progressive element has adopted immigration as a sacred cause simply because the great majority of immigrants are non-white. Since anti-racism is now basically their religion any suggestion immigration should be lowered is akin to demanding fewer non-white people come in which of course is racism which of course is blasphemous evil. There seems to be no thinking beyond that on the part of the proponents of immigration. And since the progressives control academia and the media, these are the views which get propagated.

[I am Groot]

20 hours ago, herbie said:

Because you said so?

Because they say so. Because numbers matter.

20 hours ago, herbie said:

The values you mentioned are the very reasons they come here.

Fundamentally the reason most immigrants come here is to have a more economically successful life with a nicer house and more consumer products.

20 hours ago, herbie said:

So exactly what "traditions and values" do you really think they threaten?

We won't really know until we see what values remain after the progressive left in academia and media get done destroying them. We're already seeing signs that  Canadians' support for things like freedom of speech are fading and tolerance for different views diminishing. The spirit of compromise which is the bedrock of how a democratic state functions is also weakening.

[I am Groot]

16 hours ago, Aristides said:

Well as long as there is a labour shortage, we will have to find people where we can.

Did you read the cite accompanying the OP? According to Wright there really isn't a labour shortage except in specific areas like the trades, and low dollar jobs like hospitality, restaurants and retail.

I would add we have an obvious shortage in medical professionals but that's a result of deliberate government policy designed to limit the number of doctors and nurses.

[Moonbox]

20 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Well, as it's an incontrovertible fact that almost everyone ought to realize so I had given you credit for realizing it, as well. I guess I gave you too much credit.

You give yourself too much credit, along with your boneheaded theories.  

20 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

If you must reduce this discussion to thoughtless cliche's could you at least make them Canadian ones instead of borrowing from the US? Calling this anti-immigration natter sweepingly rejects the again incontrovertible fact that the massive increases in labor drive down wages. The government even says so! The banks say so!  Or are you going to deny this? Do you want me to cite further economists or will you just dismiss that all as "anti immigrant natter'? 

We've already agreed that our current immigration policies are bad, and that they are driving wages down.  The problem isn't inherent to immigration, but rather cynical policy that fails to pursue worthwhile objectives in lieu of politicized vote-chasing.  

20 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Tell me, is there ANY argument of any kind whatsoever against mass immigration that you would accept or would you simply jerk your knee and squeal about anti-immigration? If you want to shitpost Americana why not go down to the American groups below where you'll find like-minded posters? 

Since we've already actually discussed one (see above, and this is not the first time we've agree on this), perhaps you can acknowledge that this isn't a purely black-and-white issue and that thoughtlessly drawing a line in the sand where you apparently support unfettered immigration if you don't agree with the anti-immigration peanut gallery.  

20 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

I suppose I could point out that our population was already stable and in fact was growing but I'm guessing facts play no role in your thinking on this topic.

Stable isn't good enough.  That's not how our economy has been run over the last 40 years.  Like it or not, Keynesian economics have been at play for as long as I've been alive and probably you as well.  

20 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

What conspiracy theory did I post? Or are you just jerking that knee wildly again with the usual brainless screech towards anyone who dares to question the sacred policy of mass immigration?

The tired old rag about media propaganda.  Their "singular focus" is apparently mass immigration?  Please.  ?

Edited December 12, 2022 by Moonbox

[Aristides]

22 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Did you read the cite accompanying the OP? According to Wright there really isn't a labour shortage except in specific areas like the trades, and low dollar jobs like hospitality, restaurants and retail.

I would add we have an obvious shortage in medical professionals but that's a result of deliberate government policy designed to limit the number of doctors and nurses.

So what are you trying to say, TFW's are stealing all the high paying jobs? I don't think so, they are taking the jobs Canadian citizens don't want. 

[Aristides]

2.1 children per woman of child bearing age is considered the natural replacement rate for a population. Canada's current rate is 1.4 children per woman of child bearing age. At that rate we will soon be a country of geezers without immigration. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Aristides

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Aristides said:

So what are you trying to say, TFW's are stealing all the high paying jobs? I don't think so, they are taking the jobs Canadian citizens don't want. 

They're taking the jobs Canadian citizens can't fill and with the boomer generation starting to retire en mass this will only get worse.  We'll have to turn Canadian women into baby factories, starting 15 - 20 years ago to keep up with the demand for labour or, as experts have been telling us for even longer, increase immigration...starting tomorrow.  This discussion should be about turning TFW's into permanent Canadian citizens to avoid choking off the supply of labour.

I just wish we had politicians who could effectively argue that more experts should be given greater responsibility for managing our affairs according to science, facts and reality as opposed to politics and especially those that cater to the out-sized voice and influence given to overly hard-boiled conservative right-wing sensitivities/sensibilities/fears/advice.

The Deplorables in a word.  And just wait until the retired boomers really start biting into health care.

The par upon which the issue of a labour shortage looms does not match that of climate change but it is another example of how political whining from the same deniers deter us from taking action in time to prevent making things worse.

The one step back from every two forward is getting bigger. Soon it'll be two back for every one forward.  Any bets that still won't stop the whining? 

Edited December 12, 2022 by eyeball

[herbie]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Fundamentally the reason most immigrants come here is to have a more economically successful life with a nicer house and more consumer products.

And to live their lives without persecution, to have a say in how things are run that affect them. Those ARE the Canadian values. Not just simply economic reasons.

Afraid they might not vote how you do? To effing bad, this is a democracy and it's going to stay that way. FFS the boomers everyone whines about have/are now retiring, I know I'm a tail-ender of that generation and I have too. NO KIDS HERE are taking up the slack, the bakeries, the cafes, the retail shops, even computer businesses - HERE - we're handing you what was ours and you won't even take it. HERE - we're handing you a home but you want to rent in downtown Vancouver to go night clubbing, HERE -  a completely functioning set of institutions and you won't even learn how it works, let alone try to run it.
Of course we need immigrants, they're the only ones who can see opportunity. The bulk of "traditional" Canadian\s sure as hell can't.

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

You give yourself too much credit, along with your boneheaded theories.  

I wasn't aware the law of supply and demand was a boneheaded theory. Let me guess, you're a social science major?

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

We've already agreed that our current immigration policies are bad, and that they are driving wages down. 

Which is why you posted that silly little cartoon from Trumpland to mock people who -- say immigration is driving down wages. Are you bipolar or something? Schizophrenic?

 

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Since we've already actually discussed one (see above, and this is not the first time we've agree on this), perhaps you can acknowledge that this isn't a purely black-and-white issue and that thoughtlessly drawing a line in the sand where you apparently support unfettered immigration if you don't agree with the anti-immigration peanut gallery.

Please cite me where I suggested that as opposed to saying the numbers are too high. In fact, your previous post was the one which seemed to be drawing a line in the sand whereby anyone who dares to criticize immigration was some brainless Trump type who hates foreigners.

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Stable isn't good enough. 

It was rising in a stable way, predicted to reach 50 million by 2100. Now it's expected to reach that fifty years sooner.

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The tired old rag about media propaganda.  Their "singular focus" is apparently mass immigration?  Please.  ?

Apparently you don't understand what a conspiracy theory is. I never suggested a conspiracy., I never suggested collusion. The media are primarily made up of progressives and I've seen them go on message for many decades, spewing out story after story against nuclear weapons, at one time, or the current climate change and identity politics efforts. They had quite the impact on the public's perception of gay marriage. As did the government efforts at promoting American style patriotism. A government effort at promoting bigger families could also bear results. It's worth trying anyway.

As for the media and immigration. It's a rare, rare event when any story that gives information casting a dark light on immigration gets printed in any newspaper or appears on any television show. That is not conspiracy, just that media stays on message, invariably pumping out pro-immigration stories just as they do anti-racism or climate change stories. 

[Moonbox]

5 hours ago, I am Groot said:

I wasn't aware the law of supply and demand was a boneheaded theory. Let me guess, you're a social science major?

I'm an econ and business major, but this isn't a supply and demand argument.  ?

5 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Which is why you posted that silly little cartoon from Trumpland to mock people who -- say immigration is driving down wages. Are you bipolar or something? Schizophrenic?

I've already agreed that wages are being driven down by soft immigration policy - particularly the Liberals'.  If you want to have a discussion about how and why it's bad, and how we can fix it, I'm down.  Liberal immigration policy, as you say, has been a political tool for as long as I've been alive.   If you're just going to rant about too many immigrants, however, you're shouting at the clouds.  

5 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Please cite me where I suggested that as opposed to saying the numbers are too high.

The distinction isn't particularly meaningful. 

"I don't have a problem with immigrants, I just want there to be less of them."  ?

5 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Apparently you don't understand what a conspiracy theory is. I never suggested a conspiracy., I never suggested collusion. The media are primarily made up of progressives and I've seen them go on message for many decades, spewing out story after story against nuclear weapons, at one time, or the current climate change and identity politics efforts.

So I guess their focus wasn't so singular after all.  

5 hours ago, I am Groot said:

As for the media and immigration. It's a rare, rare event when any story that gives information casting a dark light on immigration gets printed in any newspaper or appears on any television show. That is not conspiracy, just that media stays on message, invariably pumping out pro-immigration stories just as they do anti-racism or climate change stories. 

Ah, I see.  It's not a conspiracy -  they're just all following the same message  - the "singular propaganda focus of our progressive media". ?

 

[I am Groot]

16 hours ago, Moonbox said:

If you want to have a discussion about how and why it's bad, and how we can fix it, I'm down. 

No, I don't think you are. You're not approaching this like an actual discussion. Your attitude is more like it's a competition and if you can deliberately misconstrue something I've said - even though you know exactly what I meant - you can score some kind of imaginary point for yourself. There's no meaningful exchange of ideas or information in that sort of environment because you don't really care what I say so much as how I say it. Hardner does this too. It's irritating and kind of disappointing because neither of you seems like you're dumb guys but it makes open discussions kind of impossible.

[Moonbox]

10 hours ago, I am Groot said:

There's no meaningful exchange of ideas or information in that sort of environment because you don't really care what I say so much as how I say it. Hardner does this too. It's irritating and kind of disappointing because neither of you seems like you're dumb guys but it makes open discussions kind of impossible.

I think you need to go back and re-read this exchange.  I started off agreeing with most of what you said, but you turned out pretty absolute in your viewpoints and fell into silly rhetoric about immigration being a ponzi, media propaganda pushing agendas and other banal stuff like that that's not worth a considerate response.  

Bemoaning the responses you're getting to your own low-brow ranting is a bad look.  

[I am Groot]

9 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I think you need to go back and re-read this exchange.  I started off agreeing with most of what you said, but you turned out pretty absolute in your viewpoints and fell into silly rhetoric about immigration being a ponzi, media propaganda pushing agendas and other banal stuff like that that's not worth a considerate response.  

Bemoaning the responses you're getting to your own low-brow ranting is a bad look.  

Uhm, no, you took it off the rails Sunday by ignoring what I'd written, posting a juvenile Trump type cartoon and then pretending that all discussion of immigration is 'anti-immigrant'. I'm not interested in playing any further games with someone with that kind of knee-jerk response.