Provinces vs States: Language, Abortion

[August1991]

Some of us are left-handed. Others are born with light-skin.

Some of us are short, others are born tall. It happens.

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By chance, Canada has a federal state with a province with many French language people.

I reckon that we Canadians are civilised because we cross lines when we vote. 

 

[August1991]

In 1892, Protestants chose John Thompson, a Roman Catholic, as our federal PM. 

[August1991]

The first premier of Ontario was John S. Macdonald elected in 1867, a Roman Catholic.

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Canada has a long history of individuals crossing religious/ethnic lines.

[August1991]

In 1896, English Canadians voted for a federal Prime Minister named Laurier.

[August1991]

Pierre Trudeau once said that the measure of a society is how the majority treats the minority.

I now think that the better measure -in a democracy- is whether the minority votes for the majority. 

[Aristides]

I hope we will be able to cross lines in future but rampant tribalism seems to be an epidemic in today's world.

[herbie]

You do realize you started a thread and not one of your own posts has anything to do with the subject?

[TreeBeard]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:22 AM, August1991 said:

Pierre Trudeau once said that the measure of a society is how the majority treats the minority.

I now think that the better measure -in a democracy- is whether the minority votes for the majority. 

Can you have the second part without the first part?  If the majority treats the minority poorly, would they vote for that majority?

[August1991]

On 10/16/2022 at 8:13 PM, herbie said:

You do realize you started a thread and not one of your own posts has anything to do with the subject?

Herbie,

I disagree.

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The measure of a civilised society is when people in the minority freely vote for a candidate, outside their tribe.

In federal Canada, we first started to do this in the 1890s.

++++++++++++++++++

No Scandinavian country has done what we Canadians have done.

While the Swedes were avoiding the European Wars, or separating from Norwegians, or leaving the Finns to fight Russia, we Canadians were making the world a better place.

Finns? You were fighting for yourselves - allied with Hitler.

Norwegians? Still today, you have your our own currency, separate from Europe.

We Canadians are willing to cross lines.

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by August1991

[August1991]

In Canada, unlike Norway and the rest of Europe, we have a common currency. Our provincial governments also share their tax revenues..

BTW, the United States has a similar system.

Norway shares nothing with anybody - unless Norwegians decide.

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To me, people in Norway and Scandinavia in general virtue-signal; they're free-riders.

Edited October 18, 2022 by August1991

[TreeBeard]

11 hours ago, August1991 said:

Finns? You were fighting for yourselves - allied with Hitler.

Because countries like Canada wouldn’t help them when Russia invaded. 

[herbie]

which has what to do with provinces vs states, languages or abortions.

maybe if you meant 'nations' instead of states. I assumed from the title you were about to discuss the difference between Canadian provinces and US states relating to their powers over citizens. 

[Aristides]

Sweden did support Finland indirectly during the Winter War. It provided arms and a volunteer force of 10K men and 25 aircraft fought with the Finns. Finland joined Germany in an effort to get back the territory they lost to the Soviets in the Winter War.

Sweden and Finland are EU members, Norway is not but is part of the Schengen Zone. Only 19 of the 27 EU members are in the Euro Zone.

[Iteration]

On abortion, I would argue that we should simply ban it, with extremely rare exceptions. 

[TreeBeard]

2 hours ago, Aristides said:

Sweden did support Finland indirectly during the Winter War. It provided arms and a volunteer force of 10K men and 25 aircraft fought with the Finns. Finland joined Germany in an effort to get back the territory they lost to the Soviets in the Winter War.

Sweden and Finland are EU members, Norway is not but is part of the Schengen Zone. Only 19 of the 27 EU members are in the Euro Zone.

Sweden wasn’t one of the Allied powers.  They were neutral during WWII. 
 

I was talking about the other Allies not helping Finland when Russia invaded.  It wasn’t that the Finns loved the Nazis, but the enemy of my enemy….

[August1991]

12 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Sweden wasn’t one of the Allied powers.  They were neutral during WWII. 

The Swedes fought decisively in the Thirty Years War.

Since then, the Swedes have always stood aside - while other Europeans fought/killed/incinerated themselves.

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In Norway, Sweden and Finland, you virtue signal your Lutheran ideas.

We in Canada make it possible for different people to get along in practice. We cross lines. To me, this is the critical feature of a civilised society. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by August1991

[August1991]

Norway?

Even voters in Chicago don't do what Canadians have done for over a century.

When voting, we Canadians have a long history of crossing. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by August1991

[August1991]

I was appalled by the recent voting system in the US. 2022.

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IMHO, Canada is a civilised society because individuals can vote secretly - a single X on a ballot.

You Americans ask people to vote on a ballot with six-zilliion candidates, and even a referenda. 

 

[August1991]

On 10/18/2022 at 3:10 PM, herbie said:

which has what to do with provinces vs states, languages or abortions.

maybe if you meant 'nations' instead of states. I assumed from the title you were about to discuss the difference between Canadian provinces and US states relating to their powers over citizens. 

In Canada, each province has jurisdiction over language and education.

Recently, the US Supreme Court made the question of abortion an issue at the state-level.

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In any society, how we all get along is a difficult question.

While I admire the American constitution, I like the Canadian federal system. I note that we Canadians have a tendency to vote across tribal lines.

In the US, the first Roman Catholic was Kennedy. In Canada, we've had many Catholic leaders - elected by Protestants.

But far more significantly, in Canada, people in the minority are willing to vote for a majority candidate - even when a fellow minority candidate is on the ballot.

In Canada, minority Protestants in Quebec vote for a Catholic, minority French-speaking in Ontario vote for an Anglo - even when they have someone of their language/religion on the ballot. And we in Canada have done for this for over a century.

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How many black Americans voted for McCain or Romney when Obama was on the ballot?

How much are Norwegians willing to sacrifice for fellow Europeans?  

 

[500channelsurfer]

The United States was founded and constitution written with violence in mind. The federal government was intended simply to defend its member independent states from British and future oppression and invading forces.

Canadian independence happened almost reluctantly. We only brought home our constitution in 1982. We never went to war for it and it only exists as a series of assumed accepted precedents, with referendums to better formalize and change it always failing. 

The nations of Europe have national identities dating back a thousand year or more so their citizens are much more easily made to feel strongly for their 'tribe.'

[herbie]

It didn't happen reluctantly. Just took a while for a generation fed up with Britain having say and a PM with enough balls to do something about it.

[Queenmandy85]

14 hours ago, herbie said:

It didn't happen reluctantly. Just took a while for a generation fed up with Britain having say and a PM with enough balls to do something about it.

No, we didn't patriate the BNA Act because we could not agree on an amendment formula. The original BNA Act in 1867 was written by Canadians and rushed through the British Parliament without debate. It was expediant to pass the BNA bill as it was with the option to revisit the amending formula later when there was agreement. 

[herbie]

I wasn't referring to the BNA act, but the Constitution.

Like hearing my parents tale of how it took until after the war to be Cdn citizens instead of British subjects, and how my father-in-law who never became a citizen could still vote, but my grandfather who was only a landed immigrant and not a British subject couldn't. Even though we still have a Monarch as head of state, the Constitution was the final act of independence.

 

[August1991]

On 11/28/2022 at 10:56 AM, Queenmandy85 said:

No, we didn't patriate the BNA Act because we could not agree on an amendment formula. The original BNA Act in 1867 was written by Canadians and rushed through the British Parliament without debate. It was expediant to pass the BNA bill as it was with the option to revisit the amending formula later when there was agreement. 

Correct.

As Thatcher said, she held her nose.

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Everyone talks of Reagan, Thatcher. No one talks of Trudeau Snr - and how he did a deal with Thatcher.

[August1991]

On 11/26/2022 at 1:59 AM, 500channelsurfer said:

The United States was founded and constitution written with violence in mind. The federal government was intended simply to defend its member independent states from British and future oppression and invading forces.

Canadian independence happened almost reluctantly. We only brought home our constitution in 1982. We never went to war for it and it only exists as a series of assumed accepted precedents, with referendums to better formalize and change it always failing. 

The nations of Europe have national identities dating back a thousand year or more so their citizens are much more easily made to feel strongly for their 'tribe.'

Europe's problems date for thousands of years?

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You misunderstand my city, my country.

In federal Canada, we have politicians like Hitler, psychopaths. (It happens.)

But these politicians somehow do good. And Canada is a civilised place,

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by August1991