Abortion should be banned in the United States (my first topic).

[Iteration]

I am pro-life. My essential view is that unless human rights mean something divergent to "human rights," the unborn should have them. As a consequence, I believe nearly all abortion should be banned (the typical over 99% of cases). There are potential rare exceptions which I remain agnostic on, but these do not make up the paradigm of incidents. Otherwise, I have never heard a good argument for legal abortion and I will openly argue that it ought to be banned. 

In summation, the pro choice position is silly to me. 

[Iteration]

I should mention, I am open to hearing pro choice arguments, (preferably in syllogism). Most of them in my experience either lead to inconsistencies, or very peculiar conclusions that most would be hard pressed to accept. 

[robosmith]

It is ridiculous to give a fetus rights superior to the female CITIZEN who bears it.

When there is a conflict of right to life, NO ONE ELSE is REQUIRED to support another life. 

Women should not be treated as 2nd class citizens to make that EXCEPTION.

[Iteration]

Quote

It is ridiculous to give a fetus rights superior to the female CITIZEN who bears it.
When there is a conflict of right to life, NO ONE ELSE is REQUIRED to support another life. 
Women should not be treated as 2nd class citizens to make that EXCEPTION.

Okay, we can work with this.
Should an unborn child have any rights? If not, what is the standard that determines whether or not an individual should have rights in your view? 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Iteration

[Moonlight Graham]

Women should have unlimited rights to have unprotected sex, become pregnant, and then murder the child inside them.  If a woman had 1000 abortions this is ethical.

There are about 800k abortions performed in the US every year.  This is not a slaughter.  Line up all 800k and and worship at the altar of our rights.

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, Iteration said:

Okay, we can work with this.
Should an unborn child have any rights? If not, what is the standard that determines whether or not an individual should have rights in your view? 

A simple standard would be citizenship. Fetus have never been recognized as a citizen in the US. 

Non-citizens have never had the same rights as citizens.

But more to the point, no single citizen is ever compelled to support any other citizen except pregnant women.

How about if I need a kidney and you're a match? Should I be able to compel you to donate your extra kidney to save my life?

[robosmith]

44 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Women should have unlimited rights to have unprotected sex, become pregnant, and then murder the child inside them.  If a woman had 1000 abortions this is ethical.

There are about 800k abortions performed in the US every year.  This is not a slaughter.  Line up all 800k and and worship at the altar of our rights.

It's NOT a child until born. It is a zygote, blastocyst, or fetus. And abortion is NOT murder.

[Moonlight Graham]

55 minutes ago, robosmith said:

It's NOT a child until born. It is a zygote, blastocyst, or fetus. And abortion is NOT murder.

You have to dehumanize it in order to kill it and still sleep at night.  This is what the Nazis did, and slave owners.

You can call it whatever you want, it's a human life.  When does a fetus become a human being?

Edited October 9, 2022 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

A simple standard would be citizenship. Fetus have never been recognized as a citizen in the US. 

Non-citizens have never had the same rights as citizens.

This is exactly what slave owners said.

Is it alive and human or not?  If you can kill it and end its life, that means it's alive, and should have a right to life.

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

But more to the point, no single citizen is ever compelled to support any other citizen except pregnant women.

How about if I need a kidney and you're a match? Should I be able to compel you to donate your extra kidney to save my life?

Why is a pregnant woman and her doctor the only citizens who are allowed to commit violent assault on another innocent human without their consent and with intent to kill?

[Dougie93]

I simply defend & uphold the Tenth Amendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

so if Blue states legalize abortion, so be it

if Red states outlaw abortion, so be it

move to whichever state it is that bests reflects your values

otherwise, it is not an issue which rises to the purview of the federal government

[Dougie93]

6 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

This is exactly what slave owners said.

but in this case, the Union favours abortion

so turning it over to the federal government would backfire

[Iteration]

Quote

A simple standard would be citizenship. Fetus have never been recognized as a citizen in the US. 
Non-citizens have never had the same rights as citizens.

Okay, so you believe we should be able to stab illegal immigrants to death? Yes or no? 

 

[blackbird]

"5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."  Jeremiah 1:5 KJV

It is clear God recognized the unborn as a person.  So the commandment "thou shalt not kill"  in the Bible applies to the unborn.  Those who reject the Bible and reject God in this are on the road to hell.  There is still time to change.  Read the New Testament and make the change.  Ask God to change your heart and mind and believe the gospel and be forgiven.  The issue of abortion is one thing, but where one will spend eternity is something one should not ignore.

[Rebound]

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You have to dehumanize it in order to kill it and still sleep at night.  This is what the Nazis did, and slave owners.

You can call it whatever you want, it's a human life.  When does a fetus become a human being?

There is no clear delineation, but do you propose jailing men for masturbation?

Should we pass a law mandating that all women and men must engage in as much unprotected sex as possible from the instant of fertility , since any missed opportunity is a lost life? 
 

Why is unborn life more significant than the lives of oppressed foreigners who come to America to flee oppression, and get vilified and caged instead? The Bible exhorts us repeatedly to welcome foreigners into our land, but we leave them to die and we worship the unborn instead?

 

Abortion is not a pleasant procedure. It’s not what people want to do. They do not plan for it or wish it. But women do find themselves in these situations, and it is often married women who do, and unintended pregnancies can destroy their existing family or make life otherwise unlivable for them and their offspring. It’s not fortunate, but that’s how life is. 

[Rebound]

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

"5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."  Jeremiah 1:5 KJV

It is clear God recognized the unborn as a person.  So the commandment "thou shalt not kill"  in the Bible applies to the unborn.  Those who reject the Bible and reject God in this are on the road to hell.  There is still time to change.  Read the New Testament and make the change.  Ask God to change your heart and mind and believe the gospel and be forgiven.  The issue of abortion is one thing, but where one will spend eternity is something one should not ignore.

Pick and choose, pick and choose. 
Illegal abortion has no impact on your life, so let’s choose to ban it. 
Homosexual activity has no impact on your life, so let’s ban that too. 
Donating the corners of your crop to the poor? Hey, wait a second!!!! 
Welcoming foreigners into your land? Nope! Doesn’t apply to me! Special Christian morality exception!

 

As a Christian, you are obsessed with ensuring that everyone adheres to a strict moral code which is ultra-easy and convenient for you personally.  

[Iteration]

Quote

Abortion is not a pleasant procedure. It’s not what people want to do...It’s not fortunate, but that’s how life is. 

Okay, so do believe an unborn child should have any rights? If you do, then you need an argument as to why they should have rights, and it should be legal to kill them at will. If you do not, you need to give a standard as to who you believe should have rights and who you believe should not. 

[Aristides]

At this point, no one is going to change their minds on this issue.

[Iteration]

Quote

 

At this point, no one is going to change their minds on this issue.

That is fine, I just want to debate our positions and see if there are actually any good pro choice arguments. It seems as if the responses I am getting lead to insane conclusions. For example, someone above said citizenship should determine whether or not one has rights, entailing that he believes you should be able to stab all illegal immigrants to death, or even enslave them. 

Do you have any pro choice argument? This goes for everyone as well, or is the goal just to talk with no purpose. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Iteration

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

Pick and choose, pick and choose. 
Illegal abortion has no impact on your life, so let’s choose to ban it. 
Homosexual activity has no impact on your life, so let’s ban that too. 
Donating the corners of your crop to the poor? Hey, wait a second!!!! 
Welcoming foreigners into your land? Nope! Doesn’t apply to me! Special Christian morality exception!

 

As a Christian, you are obsessed with ensuring that everyone adheres to a strict moral code which is ultra-easy and convenient for you personally.  

No "picking and choosing".  Respecting human life is not picking and choosing.  It is what God commanded.  Christians are not perfect but they are following and defending what God taught in his holy word, which you despise and reject.  You as an atheist are your own god and think you can do whatever you feel like or make up your own morality.  The road to hell is wide and is easy to follow when you approve of all forms of evil as you do. 

[Aristides]

14 minutes ago, Iteration said:

That is fine, I just want to debate our positions and see if there are actually any good pro choice arguments. It seems as if the responses I am getting lead to insane conclusions. For example, someone above said citizenship should determine whether or not one has rights, entailing that he believes you should be able to stab all illegal immigrants to death, or even enslave them. 

Do you have any pro choice argument? This goes for everyone as well, or is the goal just to talk with no purpose. 

No you don't. 

Quote

In summation, the pro choice position is silly to me. 

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Aristides

[Rebound]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I simply defend & uphold the Tenth Amendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

so if Blue states legalize abortion, so be it

if Red states outlaw abortion, so be it

move to whichever state it is that bests reflects your values

otherwise, it is not an issue which rises to the purview of the federal government

“Or to the people”

[Dougie93]

Just now, Rebound said:

“Or to the people”

as the SCOTUS has sent the issue back to the states, the people can decide through their state legislatures

that's how America works

[Iteration]

Quote

I simply defend & uphold the Tenth Amendment

Do you believe what is currently legal determines what ought to be done? 

[Rebound]

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

No "picking and choosing".  Respecting human life is not picking and choosing.  It is what God commanded.  Christians are not perfect but they are following and defending what God taught in his holy word, which you despise and reject.  You as an atheist are your own god and think you can do whatever you feel like or make up your own morality.  The road to hell is wide and is easy to follow when you approve of all forms of evil as you do. 

You are PICKING your PERSONAL OPINION of when life begins, and you are CHOOSING to impose it on the rest of the nation.  
 

Here’s the sickness: It takes zero effort for YOU to meet this “moral calling.” You aren’t more moral and society isn’t more moral this way. It’s you feeling good about yourself by dominating a woman’s body by your imposition of cruelty upon others. 
 

You didn’t answer the question, which is why a fertilized egg is a human being but the sperm is not.  A fertilized egg is smaller than a pin head and can be frozen indefinitely.  That doesn’t sound any more human than sperm. 
 

So as ridiculous as you think it sounds to outlaw wasting your sperm, that’s precisely how ridiculous you sound. 

[Iteration]

Quote

No you don't. 

I am not sure why you are responding with this. I am pro-life, and yes, I believe being pro choice is silly. Do you have an argument for the pro choice position, yes or no?