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Is our justice system becoming to soft.


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4 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Ok, who is talking about hatred?  If we base punishment on feeling so sorry for criminals we will also find ourselves in an unjust world.

Poor Omar Khadr.  Just a child soldier. A victim.  Not allowed to fly on Canadian airplanes would be too cruel for him.

I'm talking about hatred.

Actually, I think being soft on Khadr is hardest on conservatives.

Which is just fine by me.

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4 hours ago, Aristides said:

Keeping people off the street so they can't make more victims is not hatred.

Okay. Like I said above though, I don't expect conservatives and progressives to ever agree on this topic and I also fully expect conservatives will forever push as far and as hard as possible to increase the severity of punishment.

I've never heard a progressive say crime should be legalized but I'm quite certain conservatives hear progressives say this all the time.

We can barely share the same language anymore so how much longer will it be until we decide the planet isn't big enough for us?

Edited by eyeball
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26 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Okay. Like I said above though, I don't expect conservatives and progressives to ever agree on this topic and I also fully expect conservatives will forever push as far and as hard as possible to increase the severity of punishment.

I've never heard a progressive say crime should be legalized but I'm quite certain conservatives hear progressives say this all the time.

We can barely share the same language anymore so how much longer will it be until we decide the planet isn't big enough for us?

You mean sentencing, is the topic we don't agree on, not the fact criminals should face justice. So tell us why we should not take this case and give the guy 150 years in prison, and please don't use it is against his charter of rights, that's BS.

I can name a few right now, legalize all Illegal drugs including hard drugs, to ensure a safe drug supply.

legalizing the right to put mentally ill patients to death, Granting permission for women to die because they can not find a suitable and affordable apartment...

 

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1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

So tell us why we should not take this case and give the guy 150 years in prison, and please don't use it is against his charter of rights, that's BS.

As I see it we need to protect society from punishing governments that like using the old soft-on-crime shtick to cater to a particular political base.

We should not take this case and do what you want because it would lead to this.

Quote

Legalizing the right to put mentally ill patients to death

You people and the sort of moral entrepreneurs that like exploiting your outrage, simply can't help yourselves.

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3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Sorry I feel this is a facile and overstated response in this same vein:""Helicopter parents, shouting "yay good job!" when their kid does anything remotely not stupid.""

2. All of it is case by case and not an assessment of what is really wrong.

We probably have access to stats like recitivism rates, time between arrest and sentencing and costs per conviction.  If we vote based on Karla Homolka got released 30 years ago, then we deserve the system we get.

 

3. I'm especially concerned about the public's inattention generally - not just in justice but also education and healthcare, where the public does not pay attention to the stats one little bit and they never come up even at election time. That gives elected officials and Senior bureaucracy cover to let things slip because they know that the public isn't watching the numbers.

1. Soft parents raise soft children, soft children become soft adults, soft adults create a soft society, including a soft justice system.

2.  What should be considered justice for a crime is not something proven by statistics.  How long someone should be punished in prison for a murder is not based soley on statistics.  Part of going to prison is to keep the public safe, part of it is rehab.  But the definition of justice is literally someone getting what they deserve.  If you commit a crime you should be punished, based on the severity of the crime.  What is considered just or fair punishment for a crime is completely philosophical and subjective.

3. Agree.  We have an ailing healthcare system and not much discussion about it.

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6 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1. Soft parents raise soft children, soft children become soft adults, soft adults create a soft society, including a soft justice system.

2.  What should be considered justice for a crime is not something proven by statistics.  How long someone should be punished in prison for a murder is not based soley on statistics.  Part of going to prison is to keep the public safe, part of it is rehab.  But the definition of justice is literally someone getting what they deserve.  If you commit a crime you should be punished, based on the severity of the crime.  What is considered just or fair punishment for a crime is completely philosophical and subjective.

3. Agree.  We have an ailing healthcare system and not much discussion about it.

1. Sorry but this is a superficial observation and may not even be true.

2. Well then how would you assess such attributes over a large number of cases without quantifying it?

3. Ok.

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18 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Sorry but this is a superficial observation and may not even be true.

2. Well then how would you assess such attributes over a large number of cases without quantifying it?

3. Ok.

1.  Disagree.

2. How do you quantify "the criminal got a punishment that was fair relative the crime they committed"?  "Fair" isn't quantifiable, it's completely subjective. 

Here's some stats:

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/crime/rr01_1/p2_1.html

Soft soft soft.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-supreme-court-rules-canadian-judges-have-been-too-soft-on-punishment/

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2022/05/03/minister-flags-creative-plan-for-repeat-offenders-after-being-called-soft-on-crime.html

 

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:
 

As I see it we need to protect society from punishing governments that like using the old soft-on-crime shtick to cater to a particular political base.

We should not take this case and do what you want because it would lead to this.

You people and the sort of moral entrepreneurs that like exploiting your outrage, simply can't help yourselves.

Bullshit, it is not just the "right" that wants the time to fit the crime. This person took 6 lives and ripped them from their families because he got wrapped up in some hate group online. He has no remorse, he felt nothing at the time of the murders, he planned it and then collected the tools he needed, and then killed 6 people. And the court is concerned about his charter rights... and why are 25 years ok and not 120 like he was supposed to get... worried he might not have a chance to see freedom before he dies... Does it worry you, he may not see a chance of parole, do you want this puke in your neighborhood once paroled.  not me, this scumbag got what he deserved. You said yourself, you would have killed this guy if it had been your family... So why the tears over this guy...

now I'm a member of the moral police, and yet it is OK for you to kill this guy had it been your family, but shit we can not keep him in jail for more than 25 years for each person he murdered. That is cruel and unusual punishment somehow. 

And WTF does YOU people mean... This guy represents the worst of our society, and deserves the harshest sentence we can give him. and maybe it will serve as a warning to others who want to be evil well this is the consequence. 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Actually, I think being soft on Khadr is hardest on conservatives.

 

Actually, it was a slap in the face to every Soldier that went to war for this nation. He was a terrorist regardless of age and was killing coalition soldiers for a payday. and Canadians bought him back like some hero... and then awarded him 10 million dollars for his efforts...

Do you want to know how much they paid each soldier's widow less than 300 k that was the top payout our government paid out...In Afghanistan, he was nothing more than a target to be hunted down and ended. 

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3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Okay. Like I said above though, I don't expect conservatives and progressives to ever agree on this topic and I also fully expect conservatives will forever push as far and as hard as possible to increase the severity of punishment.

I've never heard a progressive say crime should be legalized but I'm quite certain conservatives hear progressives say this all the time.

We can barely share the same language anymore so how much longer will it be until we decide the planet isn't big enough for us?

There's a happy middle ground between being a soft progressive and being a conservative d-bag.

Texas still has the death penalty and San Francisco lets thieves rob stores undisturbed in broad daylight.  White racists gun down "suspicious blacks" in the streets while the city of Seattle lets residents illegally occupy a few square blocks downtown for a month (CHOP).  Trump sticks illegal migrant kids in cages with tinfoil blankets and Canadian border agents help them with their luggage.

I don't think its very hard to figure this out.  People need to grow some balls while not being a d!cks.

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4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Okay. Like I said above though, I don't expect conservatives and progressives to ever agree on this topic and I also fully expect conservatives will forever push as far and as hard as possible to increase the severity of punishment.

I've never heard a progressive say crime should be legalized but I'm quite certain conservatives hear progressives say this all the time.

We can barely share the same language anymore so how much longer will it be until we decide the planet isn't big enough for us?

Why does this have to about progressives and conservatives. It is pretty clear our legal system is no longer capable of getting out of its own way. We have people with over 80 convictions that have never seen a day in jail. How long should their victims have to put up with this?  Why do we have laws in the first place if they don't mean anything?

We are increasingly becoming a society where our actions are dictated by what we believe other people think. 

Edited by Aristides
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2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Why is that?

Because Khadr's story and his case came to symbolize so much of what was morally divisive about the war on terror if not the entire relationship between the west and Islam.  It certainly helped set the relationship between left and the right in Canada on its ass too.  I'm not the least bit surprised to see the same people who would argue for a harsher more punishing criminal vengeance system weren't the least bit concerned about stripping away and ignoring a kids right's so he could be legally persecuted.

  

Quote

Everyone should be equally ticked off.  Soft people won't be though.

Oh don't worry, soft people were plenty ticked off too.

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1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

So why the tears over this guy...

I've told you already, it's not this case, or the last case or the one before that and it won't be the next one either. The tears are over the constant endless pressure to have a system of punishment, incarceration and corrections that is based on vengeance, revenge, pay-back...maybe vindictiveness is a more appropriate word.  I don't care if that's how you want to go through your life feeling - I just don't want your feelings being reflected in our justice system.

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On 5/28/2022 at 4:41 PM, eyeball said:

We are a nation in which conservatives are unable to put aside or leave behind their desire to turn our justice system into a vengeance system.

No matter what anyone else says they'll always be dismissed as soft on crime...if we brought back the electric chair conservatives would be whining that the means of death was too painless, too quick and too soft on crime.

You see the same process guaranteeing that the right-wing forever remains a direction instead of ever becoming a place.

There is a difference between vengeance and justice.  You don't seem to understand that.  You talk as if someone convicted of a crime should not be punished.  This is classic liberalism.  They believe the offender is just a misguided individual who needs rehabilitation.  The Supreme Courts is totally misguided and are nothing more than a bunch of liberals, probably because they were appointed by liberals.  They somehow think a convicted murderer should have the same rights as everyone else.  They completely reject the principle that justice requires punishment in proportion to the seriousness of the offence.  Liberals and left long ago abandoned capital punishment as a form of punishment under the misguided view that nobody should receive capital punishment, that it somehow violates their human rights even though they murdered other people.  Yet they are ok with killing the unborn and giving medical assistance in dying, even to the mentally ill.  Their thinking is totally warped.   

I have never heard of a conservative complaining that a form of  capital punishment was too quick or too painless.  Another lie by the lying leftist.

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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

There's a happy middle ground between being a soft progressive and being a conservative d-bag.

I just don't believe that. Not in light of how and why the right-wing has become so much of a direction as opposed to settling into a place.  It seems to have lost all conception of limits.

Obviously some exist though when you consider how many conservatives are being consigned to the trash heap of leftism by other conservatives these days.

It's like conservatives are going out of their way to out-conservative one another as fast as they imagine the far left is trying to convert everyone into purple-haired transgendered theys, thems and theirs.

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1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Why does this have to about progressives and conservatives. It is pretty clear our legal system is no longer capable of getting out of its own way. We have people with over 80 convictions that have never seen a day in jail.

How many people have that exactly?  I'm willing to bet the few there are will be 1st Nation's.  Easy prediction given how disproportionately 1st Nations are already represented in our prisons.

I don't know if that has something to do with the relationship between progressives and conservatives but I do think progress on the sort of underlying economic and other social factors associated with criminal behaviour has been conservatively slow.

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32 minutes ago, blackbird said:

There is a difference between vengeance and justice.  You don't seem to understand that.

What? Of course I 'seem to understand' there's a fricken difference, did you miss or ignore where I clearly said I think the primary difference is hatred?  

This is why I say conservatives and progressives don't even share the same language anymore.

At least the people of Babel wanted to cooperate when talking to one another. 

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13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

How many people have that exactly?  I'm willing to bet the few there are will be 1st Nation's.  Easy prediction given how disproportionately 1st Nations are already represented in our prisons.

I don't know if that has something to do with the relationship between progressives and conservatives but I do think progress on the sort of underlying economic and other social factors associated with criminal behaviour has been conservatively slow.

Sure we have to look at underlying conditions but you also need to admit, victims have no rights in our system.

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31 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I just don't believe that. Not in light of how and why the right-wing has become so much of a direction as opposed to settling into a place.  It seems to have lost all conception of limits.

Obviously some exist though when you consider how many conservatives are being consigned to the trash heap of leftism by other conservatives these days.

It's like conservatives are going out of their way to out-conservative one another as fast as they imagine the far left is trying to convert everyone into purple-haired transgendered theys, thems and theirs.

This is why people should ignore most conservatives and progressives.  They are largely ideologues and filled with nutters.

People like Justin Trudeau and Pierre Poilievre are unfit to lead in this country.  There is no rational common sense with these people.  Trudeau is afraid to offend anyone and is too busy signaling his virtue to make any tough decisions while Pierre is doing whatever a Poilievre does.

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1 minute ago, Aristides said:

Sure we have to look at underlying conditions but you also need to admit, victims have no rights in our system.

Of course they do. As Khadr proved the only way to take away a Canadian victim's rights is to leave them to rot on their own in an extra-judicial system that's outside of our's.

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3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Of course they do. As Khadr proved the only way to take away a Canadian victim's rights is to leave them to rot on their own in an extra-judicial system that's outside of our's.

You are presenting a false dichotomy.  There's a happy middle between letting him rot in Gitmo and allowing him to fly around on Air Canada flights.

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