Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

well not so fast there big guy. 

A tonne of people who live in the cities live in condos, and theres severe restrictions on having access to a charger there which just get worse the more people own ev's. Most stratas couldn't' provide ev charging for even 25 percent of their population and that's with very expensive upgrades to their electrical and infrastructure system. 

And city use is where it tends to be practical at all. So seeing as that's where the condos are right away your 'massive' hunk is at best a majority, with probably 30-40 percent of people not being able to consider it at this time. 

OK, but I'm talking about people with single-family or town-home. People in Condos also likely don't drive on highways a lot, so likely need to charge much less. And if they do commute long distance, there the few people where the EV market is not convenient to them. 

 

Quote

Then there's the "practicality" of installing chargers.  Well over a thousand dollars in many cases by the time the electrics in the home are brought up to speed. 

You need a NEMA 40 plug and a $300 Stage 2 charger. https://www.amazon.ca/BESENERGY-NEMA14-50-220V-240V-Upgraded-Compatible/dp/B07WGF835H/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1HLGHGQ8J9OID&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.6gDH6gr-JgDaxlXiPdDqd2y6PwnFE-pDitn82XHRWoFbDNjAFpFU_xsCjvVhfvevGYX6JwN1ZJmrMvTfwyNxXi5CECmBOZI-EhHOgOgP1Co0Lu790_mezeY1vV2JWf0TW9X8R0Ba46y7shme3KsiQQeOCO1yq2p-VfR4qj54O-Km-FO7il4k95JRlmlTdlNLcQkyKQqz35OcbocqqZAH3ItJBouwDGiBdKRa2K_ip5_gHfSNCcuYHYgEBSI0NU7fuvyf7eXRBglnXV0TvjuW4rp3iDh8EA_I59yhZTOHHEQ.bkZCpsfQWdjqx_bfYwvwZDJav4LrlmAwNGEgi0bPJpw&dib_tag=se&keywords=Stage+2+chargers&qid=1716568510&sprefix=stage+2+chargers%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

 

Quote

And then you're STILL talking about HOURS to charge the thing.  So if you're someone who drives a lot especially at different times that can be an issue. To and from work and then to and from grocery shopping and then drive the kids to band practice, whatever and running around on the weekends,  sure in the summer when the vehicle is brand new it's probably manaegable but it's not actually 'practical'.  And as the batteries age and in colder weather it may be a lot more of a challenge 

I feel bad for these people you know that regularly have to drive 200-300 kms a day. Are you suggesting that's the experience of most people? 

 

Quote

You're just not being honest.  Period.  It is too long for many applications and if you've got a 10 hour road trip that  you have to stretch into 12 hours because you have to stop for 30 minutes regularly -  yes that absolutely is a massive deal. Especially with kids. 

It's actually an asset with younger kids. They won't stay seated without having to pee or have a snack for more than 2 hours. 

Quote

So the misinformation is yours.  Pretending that these problems don't exist is a lie.   I can buy an ice for far less money and save 2 hours. That's a very REAL thing

I've consistently recognized the problems. But comparing a base model ICE to a modern EV is a little disingenous. 

 

Quote

Really. What size is my fuel tank.  You're being a complete 1diot.  That represents 16.5 km per litre of fuel, if you think that's "really bad" gas milage then you're just a loser who's arguing for the sake of arguing. 

Most people trumpet 1,000 km ranges for new ICE vehicles. 700 kms is not that far off where EVs are not. But again we're only taking about it being a weakness if you're doing all that range in one shot. 

Quote

 

Great but you're not the entire universe, tho you clearly think you are. 

For many it is. 

For ANYONE who's HONEST,  sure. 

 

And for many they don't have an EV. But I'm telling you from first-hand experience, it's not that hard if you have a charger in your garage. 

 

Quote

Your entire argument is that serious problems aren't actually problems because 'pixie dust',  and that everyone in the world must live exactly like you do. 

I disagree with you that 15 minutes to charge to 80% is less a serious problem than you think. That can be done on a lunch break. If you drive like most people then you may only need to charge 2 or 3 times a week. And that only assumes you don't have access to a charger at home. 

Quote

The extra cost, the extra time to charge, the problems with equipping homes with chargers on a large scale, etc etc  - all of those are very real and make ev's an IMPRACTICAL choice for most people. There are without a doubt some who it would be a good choice for and they should buy and own one but at this point i doubt even half could make that choice practically 

I actually think the biggest obstacle for car ownership right now is interest rates. Car loans are absurdly expensive. For an ICE or an EV. I'm lucky to have purchased in a lul in the market. 

Quote

 

The tech is just NOT there.  There are TOO MANY problems with it.  If it was only just one issue then it could probably be dealt with but for most people it is less efficient and less practical financially and in use than an ice vehicle. 

Sorry if that leaves you butthurt but that is the fact and ignoring facts has got this country in trouble for too long now. 

 

I think you're going to be very disappointed if you expect EVs to replicate your beloved ICE experience 100%. Some concessions will need to be made, but some big advantages will also be experienced. 

I've never claimed the tech is there yet. I just pointed out that if charger infrastructure improved to the level they need it to be, the current crop of EVs do a pretty good job of replicating the ICE experience. 

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, Boges said:

OK, but I'm talking about people with single-family or town-home. People in Condos also likely don't drive on highways a lot, so likely need to charge much less. And if they do commute long distance, there the few people where the EV market is not convenient to them. 

Townhomes have the same problem as apartments. They are both condos by the way, or stratas depending on which province you're in.

Anything built like that is built with a common electrical supply and its own infrastructure. They absolutely cannot support chargers for everybody in 99.99% of the cases as built. You can extend what they can supply by using tricks like load balancing or shutting off the charger anytime they're using the stove or other high energy appliance but that just significantly increases the charging time as well as the cost of installation and it requires that the strata has already researched this and come up with a solution that matches their grid output and has implemented it which most are light years away from. And even then you are doing fairly well to make it practical for 50% of the people in the strata, maybe if you're very lucky depending on where you are you might extend that to 75% with some expensive upgrades.

Then there's the fact that if every strata in that area did the same thing there would not be enough electrical capacity or even remotely close to it to provide for their needs without massive and expensive Electrical infrastructure upgrades to the entire area and the grid.

You have a slightly better chance in single family detached homes in suburban areas where they tend to have larger lots and the electrical provisioning has not been as maximized as it is elsewhere. But those are the people that drive more.

 

And one more factor that you are probably not aware of. Any large number of Canadian cities the climate has been good enough in the past that the there is no need for air conditioning. It's a luxury, not a necessity so homes were never built with the capacity to provide for significant air conditioning.

In the last number of years that has changed. The heat bubble which killed hundreds in British Columbia for example has led to changes where you pretty much have to allow peopleato have a heat pump to provide cooling for their units. That requires a lot of additional electrical capacity too, and Stratus have to be prepared to provision for that And keep that as a separate electrical requirement from EV charging. That is a massive electrical use that was never intended when the building was designed and built. So now you have two competing issues.

 

The rest is mostly your usual Gobbledygook that simply ignores the facts. I will address this;

Quote

I've consistently recognized the problems. But comparing a base model ICE to a modern EV is a little disingenous. 

That epitomizes your dishonesty to date. You have constantly dismissed the problems as being utterly irrelevant when they are absolutely not.

You claim parents will be happy because now they have to stop more often so their children can run around! That is beyond stupid, they are free to stop as often as they like with an ice vehicle but they don't have to being forced to stop is not an advantage

And it is absolutely ingenuous to compare an ice vehicle to an EV. That is the whole point. You literally said you are not dismissing the problems and then in the next line you say it is unfair to compare the problems.

That is you in a nutshell. I can buy an ice vehicle that is comfortable to drive and suits my needs for about half of what I would spend on an EV so there's no Savings in fuel because the money I save buying it is vastly higher than the amount I'm going to spend on gas. It is more convenient and easy to be able to fill up in a couple of minutes then it is to have to charge for hours at a time. Or even half hours at a time. It is vastly more convenient if you are traveling long distances. And we haven't even gotten into the cost of upgrading my home.

It is a lie to say that you need a $300 charger You are suggesting that people should be doing their own electrical work without certification on their homes and hope for the best with a device that is well known to explode violently if the charging isn't done right.  THat is beyond irresponsible and beyond what most people can do. 

Not to mention that it usually requires a permit so on to that cost of that charger please put the cost of a competent electrician to come in pull a permit and install it. And that assumes your home is working off of 100 amp power, there are a ton of older places that are not upgraded yet.

 

Every step of the way you dismiss the absolutely serious problems as being unimportant and ignore them but they're real. And because you do that anything else you say is tainted with the fact that we already know you are prepared to be dishonest about this. And this is why Evie sales are actually slowing down, manufacturers are beginning to back away from manufacturing a lot of EV's.  There is a niche market who should have them and want them but they are in no way shape or form ready to replace ice probably even for the majority of users

Why major car manufacturers are slowing production of electric vehicles | PBS NewsHour

EV sales have slowed. Do massive subsidies still make sense? | CBC News

Industry pain abounds as electric car demand hits slowdown | Reuters

EV Sales Slow As Buyers Want 20-Minute Charging And 350-Mile Range (forbes.com)

EV euphoria is dead. Automakers trumpet consumer choice in U.S. (cnbc.com)

EV sector grapples with layoffs, production cuts and altered plans | Reuters

 

Lie if you must - but the public knows. 

[Boges]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Townhomes have the same problem as apartments. They are both condos by the way, or stratas depending on which province you're in.

Anything built like that is built with a common electrical supply and its own infrastructure. They absolutely cannot support chargers for everybody in 99.99% of the cases as built. You can extend what they can supply by using tricks like load balancing or shutting off the charger anytime they're using the stove or other high energy appliance but that just significantly increases the charging time as well as the cost of installation and it requires that the strata has already researched this and come up with a solution that matches their grid output and has implemented it which most are light years away from. And even then you are doing fairly well to make it practical for 50% of the people in the strata, maybe if you're very lucky depending on where you are you might extend that to 75% with some expensive upgrades.

Then there's the fact that if every strata in that area did the same thing there would not be enough electrical capacity or even remotely close to it to provide for their needs without massive and expensive Electrical infrastructure upgrades to the entire area and the grid.

You have a slightly better chance in single family detached homes in suburban areas where they tend to have larger lots and the electrical provisioning has not been as maximized as it is elsewhere. But those are the people that drive more.

If you have a Nema 40 plug, what's stopping anyone? It's the same electrical outlet as a dryer and oven. As long as the circuit can handle 30 amps. If there's shared electricity then sure, that can't happen. 

But very few Condos are inclusive of Electricity anymore. 

Quote

It is a lie to say that you need a $300 charger You are suggesting that people should be doing their own electrical work without certification on their homes and hope for the best with a device that is well known to explode violently if the charging isn't done right.  THat is beyond irresponsible and beyond what most people can do. 

I said a Nema 40 and a $300 charger. I know a Tesla owner that runs a charger from a Dryer outlet. It cost me $400 to get my electrical work done. Well worth it now that my house can accommodate an EV in the future. 

Quote

 

Every step of the way you dismiss the absolutely serious problems as being unimportant and ignore them but they're real. And because you do that anything else you say is tainted with the fact that we already know you are prepared to be dishonest about this. And this is why Evie sales are actually slowing down, manufacturers are beginning to back away from manufacturing a lot of EV's.  There is a niche market who should have them and want them but they are in no way shape or form ready to replace ice probably even for the majority of users

 

Having to stop an extra 15 minutes on a roadtrip is a "serious" problem? 

Having to plan your trips is a serious problem? 

Your anxieties put aside, you'll continue to see more EVs on the road and the tech Is quickly getting "there". 

I can provide many theories why I think EV sales are dropping. The main one being the cost of driving any car. Dealers couldn't keep EVs on the lot and then consumers found out they couldn't get a 2% loan anymore. 

 

[herbie]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

mean, why would I want to buy a car that will cost me more, drive for less distance, and not be as convenient to operate?

Because it shouldn't cost more. Right now the battery costs a lot, the car costs more because ONLY Tesla is in serious mass production.
You don't drive for 6 or 7 hours 99% of the time
You don't need to go anywhere if you plug it in at home.
On top of that it doesn't need engine tuneups or oil changes or transmissions or clutch work or pollution inspections so it's more convenient.

And if you really do drive long distances often you buy a PHEV.

If you're a family man, you probably have TWO cars. One can be electrified for running around town and the other for your Griswold vacation in the family station wagon that nobody does anymore.

All cars are 'too expensive' - this thread started with someone who thought it was still 2000 and you could buy new cars for $20K. Carried on with naysayers owning $90K-$100K pickups and complaining EVs were too expensive. Not seeing charging stations popping up on their own block because they never use them. Insisting cobalt can only be mined by enslaved African children not the mine 200 km from their own city. IOW repeating 2015 arguments in 2024 as if nothings changed and refusing to accept 2035 is gonna be a hell of a lot different.
Try stopping to dig up every reason not to and start thinking of what you're options will be when your current vehicle wears out.

[CdnFox]

41 minutes ago, Boges said:

If you have a Nema 40 plug, what's stopping anyone? It's the same electrical outlet as a dryer and oven.

 

And do you currently have a dryer or an oven in your garage?

More importantly your home electrics and the amount of electricity provided assumed that you would have a dryer and an oven but it didn't think you would run two ovens at the same time for example. And many homes are not able to be able to do that without running additional wiring. You can put in a device that says while you're using your oven you cannot charge your EV, they do sell those. But now you're looking at additional money and you may still need to do some serious upgrades to your electrics.

Again, the idea that somebody can buy a normal charger on Amazon and that is their only cost associated with putting a charger in is absolutely asinine. Yet you presented as if it's the absolute truth.

 

It's just not worth even engaging with you. The dishonesty level is way too high. You're only value in this conversation at this point is to show others how delusional people have become about EVs. You can't even be honest about what it would cost to put in a charger as if you don't need an electrician and you don't need any new wiring and your house is guaranteed to have an adequate supply to run your stove and your dryer and an EV charger at stage 2 at the same time or that you wouldn't need additional equipment to load balance.

If you haven't figured it out already I know a thing or two about this.

Come back when you can have an honest conversation. Buy a charger from Amazon and just somehow magically plug it in with no additional cost is absolutely Bonkers and it makes everything else you say utterly meaningless because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about or you intend to be dishonest about it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

You don't drive for 6 or 7 hours 99% of the time

That is correct, but if I drive a lot for a living, wouldn't it be better to be in a car I could fill, and not have to worry about until the following business day?

Filling it up on my way home, for the 1 to 5 minutes that it would take, and be on my merry way?

For many businesses, EVs just make absolutely no sense.

Same reason why so many businesses have propane forklifts just like mine. 

It takes me seconds to swap out a tank. You run out of juice, no problem. There are propane vendors everywhere. Many gas stations sell it, even.

Run out of electricity, you're charging for hours. No alternative.

EVs are similarly inconvenient.

If your only sell point is the environment, and not the better product, you have failed at marketing.

Tesla made their cars sexy. Their key models literally spell this out with the first letter of each one.

You buy one because it looks better than a lot of ICE cars. 

Musk understands marketing, and then some.

Nobody listens to that "its good for you" reasoning. I didn't as a child, being fed veggies I didn't like, and I certainly wouldn't as an adult.

1 hour ago, herbie said:

On top of that it doesn't need engine tuneups or oil changes or transmissions or clutch work or pollution inspections so it's more convenient.

Honestly, I change my oil twice a year. Fueling up, is what you will likely do most, for your car. That is a weak argument.

Transmission flushes aren't required for a very long time. Engine flushes, etc. 

Again, you buy a reliable car, and your high wear parts like brakes and rotors, will require periodic changing. It just isn't comparable, unless you bought a lemon.

This is coming from someone who has driven several EVs and was on the market for one, before realizing the inconvenience of finding high speed charging points, just wasn't worth it.

Almost empty in a gas tank, and am not sweating it, in rural Canada.

I have experienced the same in an EV, and it was a high anxiety inducing ordeal.

I managed to just make it to the nearest high charging station, only for the nozzle to be damaged, and almost shorting out my vehicle.

20 minutes later, I was on my way with only 80% filled, knowing I would be experiencing the same thing the next thing.

If you live close to work, and do small commutes daily, I don't see why you wouldn't buy an EV.

But big picture practicality? Its a ways away.

1 hour ago, herbie said:

what you're options will be when your current vehicle wears out.

I hope you appreciate that I was on the market for an EV, so am highly interested in one.

There are none that meet my needs. Not even close. 

A hybrid was better, but for my driving, an ICE was still best.

Markets will decide. Not governments and automakers.

 

[herbie]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

There are propane vendors everywhere.

A subject I know lots about... both our vehicles were propane when we lived in Langley and worked in Burnaby. They added the 10¢ road tax to it and it went up 30¢ overnight, when we moved north it wasn't even competitive anymore. Had to memorize every propane stop between Prince George and Vancouver. Even then I ran an F250 with a huge propane tank for a work truck until I retired, 75¢ instead of $1.50/L at the time.
It's 2024. There are now as many charging stations as auto-propane ones and they will outnumber them by next year.
You can plug in at home and charge while you're sleeping so that's even better than hitting a gas station.

You can save on fuel right now with a PHEV, there will be fuel cells and hydrogen stations in the next 10 years, and even if they axe the tax gasoline is going to go up year after year, not down. By then you'll see batteries that charge in 15 minutes, maybe those sodium ones, and in town delivery trucks will mostly be EVs.

All the arguments against have or are being shot down one by one.

Edited May 24, 2024 by herbie

[CdnFox]

15 minutes ago, herbie said:

A subject I know lots about... both our vehicles were propane when we lived in Langley and worked in Burnaby. They added the 10¢ road tax to it and it went up 30¢ overnight, when we moved north it wasn't even competitive anymore. Had to memorize every propane stop between Prince George and Vancouver. Even then I ran an F250 with a huge propane tank for a work truck until I retired, 75¢ instead of $1.50/L at the time.
It's 2024. There are now as many charging stations as auto-propane ones and they will outnumber them by next year.
You can plug in at home and charge while you're sleeping so that's even better than hitting a gas station.

You can save on fuel right now with a PHEV, there will be fuel cells and hydrogen stations in the next 10 years, and even if they axe the tax gasoline is going to go up year after year, not down. By then you'll see batteries that charge in 15 minutes, maybe those sodium ones, and in town delivery trucks will mostly be EVs.

 

So you're saying SOMEDAY it'll be ALMOST as convenient. 

Soooo  call me when that day shows up. 

Quote

All the arguments against have or are being shot down one by one.

They haven't. I know you believe that just saying that somehow makes it true, but it hasn't. Even in your little diatribe above you say constantly will be, in the future, soon, etc etc. So not today. In some hypothetical future things might be better.

Sure, I think that the day will come for sure that they developed the technology necessary to deliver something close to the experience of an ice vehicle at a price that is close to an ice vehicle.

But today, they don't have 15 minute charging. The price is almost double, which means there is no gas savings. Any savings would go to pay for the extra cost of the vehicle. Of course gas will go up, but the fact is that so will electricity. Today it is not a practical solution for the majority of people. Without a doubt there are some that would benefit in some way but even then not much. At best it would be a preference

You haven't managed to address a single issue. It takes two to three minutes to completely fill an ice vehicle. It takes About half an hour to actually fully charge an EV. Even an 80% charges 15 minutes Which is actually a long time when you're on your way home in a hurry or when you have to get somewhere in the morning in a hurry etc. Lost his double. Only a percentage of people would be able to charge at home. Etc etc

 

And you can't address a single one of those other than to say someday in the future it might be better. Talk to me in the future

[Guest]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

There are now as many charging stations as auto-propane ones

Make that as many as gas station, and then and only then, will you have a point that the technology and its convenience is anywhere close to as good as an ICE.

2 hours ago, herbie said:

You can plug in at home

Not everyone has this luxury. Owning an EV, shouldn't be a niche opportunity. Especially if one wants sales skyrocketing.

2 hours ago, herbie said:

All the arguments against have or are being shot down one by one.

Not this one.

2 hours ago, herbie said:

By then you'll see batteries that charge in 15 minutes

Then and only then, will it start to make sense to switch over. The argument is considering right now. The technology is good, and is on its way, but isn't there now.

ICEs still dominate globally, and it's not even competitive.

[herbie]

21 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Make that as many as gas station

Did you see the notice last month that Shell is converting 1,000 of it's gas stations to EV charging stations? Petrocan is slowly adding chargers to existing stations.

BTW I have an outdoor plug on every side of the house for the lawnmower and weed whipper. I don't consider that a luxury...

 

Edited May 25, 2024 by herbie

[Guest]

5 hours ago, herbie said:

Did you see the notice last month that Shell is converting 1,000 of it's gas stations

Like I said. Once that is done. Once every station is equipped with a supercharger, not just a charger, allowing high speed charging, will you have a point.

Once battery technology allows for 5 -10 minute charges.

Until then, its still a work in progress. My ICE will be better and more reliable and convenient until that point. 

5 hours ago, herbie said:

BTW I have an outdoor plug on every side of the house for the lawnmower and weed whipper. I don't consider that a luxury...

Again. Not all Canadians have that luxury.

In today's Canada, even less Canadians.

Many car owners live in densely populated buildings. Places where they can park a car, but can't plug it in. This is a reality for quite a few people.

Neighborhoods where leaving a plug in your car, would mean it potentially being stolen.

Ever try buying a new charger? They're not cheap.

I am happy for you that everything in your life is easy. 

I have grown up poor, so mercifully still have an idea of what it's like to struggle to put food on your table. Quite a few Canadians do, too.

Even though am no longer in that situation, am still understanding of why so many people would prefer a gas car, which is often cheaper up front, along with having a far longer track record--one of the most important things to many car buyers (reliability).

If you can't understand that, then there is nothing I can do for you.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

Did you see the notice last month that Shell is converting 1,000 of it's gas stations to EV charging stations? Petrocan is slowly adding chargers to existing stations.

BTW I have an outdoor plug on every side of the house for the lawnmower and weed whipper. I don't consider that a luxury...

 

And how long do you suppose it would take to charge your 500 km ev using your outside plug?

And no - shell isn't 'CONVERTING' stations to charging stations. It's closing 1000 stations entirely. And it will be putting in charging stations in it's remaining locations and other retail locations over time. 

Shell Announces Closure of 1,000 Gas Stations, Adjusts Focus to EV Charging     - Intersolar & Energy Storage North America

There are about 200 thousand gas stations in the us  and each has a bunch of pumps.  There won't be nearly as many charging stations for a  decade or two and even then you'll have to wait while the guy ahead of you charges. Ever seen a line up at a gas station? now imagine it's 15 minutes per car. 

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Like I said. Once that is done. Once every station is equipped with a supercharger, not just a charger, allowing high speed charging, will you have a point.

 

And it turns out they're not 'converting' anything, they're shutting down 1000 unprofitable gas stations and they intend to expand chargers at their remaining ones. 

And this is my problem with 'future' promises. Half the time the people are promising something that can't be delivered on either by mistake or intent to get you to buy into their ideological plans. 

People get mad when folks like you and me say 'it isn't there - let us know when it is and we can talk". But as this shows until something has ACTUALLY happened - it hasn't happened. 

Someday something will replace ice completely but that day is not today. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

People get mad when folks like you and me say 'it isn't there

This is woke culture.

Prices are high, boycott Loblaws.

Don't look into what is causing the price hike. That's logical. Logic is for conservatives. 

EV technology isn't there. Call those not adopting it, climate deniers.

I don't want to watch a gay rom com with two men dry humping each other and making out for an hour and a half..am homophobic.

And people wonder why so many youth now are narssisstic pieces of s**t that seem to have forgotten the value of merit, hard work and humility?

[CdnFox]

27 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

This is woke culture.

Prices are high, boycott Loblaws.

Don't look into what is causing the price hike. That's logical. Logic is for conservatives. 

EV technology isn't there. Call those not adopting it, climate deniers.

I don't want to watch a gay rom com with two men dry humping each other and making out for an hour and a half..am homophobic.

And people wonder why so many youth now are narssisstic pieces of s**t that seem to have forgotten the value of merit, hard work and humility?

I wish I could say you were wrong.

As far as EVS go, the day will come where one way or another some technology will mature to the point where EVS are a legitimate replacement for ice. But that day is not here and it doesn't look like it's going to be tomorrow either. And advocates for change need to accept that and focus on Pushing for the last steps that are necessary

 

[Legato]

We travel to Myrtle Beach every year for a golfing holiday. Got a ride last year in a new Chevy Blazer EV.

Normal trip takes about 16 Hrs. Took us 25 hrs. The owner programmed all the charging stops required but we never made it over the Appalachians due to high winds. Had to get a tow. Same on return trip, had to make two detours to get a charge. 

The vehicle owner works for GM and got a sweet deal on the Blazer(GM is having difficulty selling them). He was back in an I.C.E two weeks later.

[herbie]

Oh that proves EVs are no good? You tried to do a 16 hour trip in the absolute worst, so bad they stopped production and recalled them all, slapped together GM response to an EV mandate.

Yeah we used to do long shots like that Vancouver to Thunderbay non stop when we were 20. Didn't think we proved much doing so. Used to drive lots Williams Lake - Vancouver and Prince George - Vancouver, which are easily doable in a Tesla. Specially as I'm not doing any 10 hour drives and will stop overnight anyway.

You do know even a long haul driver that's getting paid to drive isn't allowed to go 16 hours? Shit like that's an 'adventure' not normal driving.

Now tell me why if you  live in Abbotsford and work in Vancouver, why the hell you're too stubborn to consider driving a Chevy Bolt?
Repeat: most people live in the city, most couples have 2 cars, they're not that much more and you save in the long run so not even considering an EV or PHEV for one is total brain lock, not common sense.
Of course the cheapest option is the car you already got - so running out and getting a loan to buy a new EV makes zero sense, but NOT thinking about what replaces it when it croaks makes even less. Then again, when people buy cars sense doesn't even enter the equation, they buy what they want.

- And this "woke" shit is nonsense, seems anything that goes against buttheaded, sheer stubborness to change or adjust anything people don't want to is labelled 'woke'. Lumping EVs into the usual rightwing woke whine just makes that subject even more meaningless.

Edited May 25, 2024 by herbie

[Guest]

4 hours ago, herbie said:

Oh that proves EVs are no good? 

I don't think the argument is that EVs are no good. The argument is that EVs aren't a technology that is quite ready to fully replace ICEs just yet.

This is backed by simply looking at global sales, infrastructure and quite a few metrics that say sure, this is the future. Not right now, though.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

why the hell you're too stubborn to consider driving a Chevy Bolt?

Personally, I would say am way too tall for such a car. I have driven one before, and while it was sharp,  I need a bigger vehicle.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

they buy what they want

Bingo. The market has spoken. People have hangups about EVs and instead of virtue signaling, people should resolve those issues before they expect full adoption. 

You can't force and shame a society into shame, if you're working in a free society.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

And this "woke" shit is nonsense

It totally isn't.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

seems anything that goes against buttheaded, sheer stubborness to change or adjust

Understanding that you can't force change, that change takes time is rational. There should also be logic and pragmatism behind the changes. Especially if an entire infrastructure is still built mostly for ICEs.

What you're pushing, is woke diatribe.

Same mindset that would see gender as something that is limitless.

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, herbie said:

Oh that proves EVs are no good? You tried to do a 16 hour trip in the absolute worst, so bad they stopped production and recalled them all, slapped together GM response to an EV mandate.

 

That...  actually kinda DOES sound like it proves ev's are no good bud....  i don't think you thought that through all the way... 

[CdnFox]

52 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't think the argument is that EVs are no good. The argument is that EVs aren't a technology that is quite ready to fully replace ICEs just yet.

 

This is the bottom line that for some reason some people fight against despite clear evidence to the contrary. And i don't understand it. 

You had an experience which shows that there are still serious weaknesses in the tech.  But rather than acknowledge that, Herbie decides what you're "Really saying" is that all ev's are crap and nobody should use one. Which neither you nor I  have contended. 

You just can't have a rational discussion about it and that makes me very nervous about believing ANYTHING pro-ev advocates say. 

[herbie]

19 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

What you're pushing, is woke diatribe.

Gibberish.

They're here, they already sell at the same market share as the "cars" category and they won't be going away.
And once again, they're pointing out the utter failings of the Big 3 makers lobby for loans, bailouts and tariffs rather than compete.

What's butt stubborn is making up conditions as if you were being forced to cut down a forest with a Swiss Army knife therefore it's the Swiss Army knives that are stupid, useless and only woke fools would own one.
You can only go 500-600 kms in a day...
Plugging it in your own carport is less convenient than driving across the border for cheap gas....
There are no charging stations, I refuse to acknowledge the one they're building at the end of the block...
$40,000 is too expensive, so I bought a $80,000 pickup...

HTG I too am 'too big' to be comfortable in a Bolt. I wasn't comfy in my Kei truck either but it was a work truck, not something to cross Canada in. Hell we honeymooned in the Rockies in a 1977 Civic and I swear my ears rang for 2 more weeks after. But it got us to work fine until we had another kid. Imagine something like that as an EV - I'd already own one.

Worry instead over what's coming long before the EV mandate. Mandated automatic braking. Cars that will buzz at you exceeding the posted speed limit or even prevent you going 105 in a 100 zone. They already spy on you and it will get far worse, report your every move to both police and the insurance companies.
 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, herbie said:

and they won't be going away.

I hope they don't. I see myself buying one. Hopefully the technology will make it as such as that being my next car, vs the distant future.

Right now, its just not there.

3 hours ago, herbie said:

$40,000 is too expensive, so I bought a $80,000 pickup...

The cheapest Tesla, is a well equipped ICE. 

Also, you get a pickup typically for what it can do. There is nothing on the market right now (EVs) that can truly compete with one based on that.

Like I said. Its close, but not quite there.

3 hours ago, herbie said:

I too am 'too big' to be comfortable in a Bolt. 

Too tall. Its tiny.

My wife is tiny, and wouldn't be caught dead in a car that small, either.

I mean talking to you, makes me want to buy the wife an ICE Hummer. You can't shame someone to buying something that is a personal choice. A highly selfish one, at that.

Once automakers get that (meaning that making your cars more desirable and practical vs pointing to how green they are), you will likely start to see EV sales dwarf that of ICE cars.

 

[Boges]

On 5/24/2024 at 4:01 PM, CdnFox said:

And do you currently have a dryer or an oven in your garage?

More importantly your home electrics and the amount of electricity provided assumed that you would have a dryer and an oven but it didn't think you would run two ovens at the same time for example. And many homes are not able to be able to do that without running additional wiring. You can put in a device that says while you're using your oven you cannot charge your EV, they do sell those. But now you're looking at additional money and you may still need to do some serious upgrades to your electrics.

I live in a Condo Townhome. I deal directly with the electricity provider. If needed to up the amperage, why would I have to consult with them. Now if I wanted to install Solar panels, that's another story. 

Like I repeatedly mention, these aren't cookie cutter scenarios. Some people have ample access to charging, some don't and the ability for an EV to be practical for them is contingent on that. 

Quote

Again, the idea that somebody can buy a normal charger on Amazon and that is their only cost associated with putting a charger in is absolutely asinine. Yet you presented as if it's the absolute truth.

Reading comprehension issues? I said a Nema 40 plug and a charger (3rd time I've said it). Now if getting a Nema 40 charger in your garage or close enough for your car costs several thousands of dollars, that sucks. But don't act like it's typical. Even if it cost $2,000, that's a capital investment in your home that will make it more valuable as EVs become more common. 

 

[CdnFox]

16 minutes ago, Boges said:

I live in a Condo Townhome. I deal directly with the electricity provider. If needed to up the amperage, why would I have to consult with them.

 

Well you're not telling the truth here at some point. If you are making modifications to the strata corporations electrical grid without advising them or getting permission you're breaking the law. It's that simple.  If you're trying to tell me that you live in a strata Corporation but have independent electrical provisioning that doesn't have anything to do with the strata property then I would have to say that is so unlikely that I would be tempted to say you are being misleading. At the absolute very least you are like the only one in Canada.

Strata corporations control and own the common infrastructure which includes the electrical. It is absolutely not possible to lawfully upgrade the strata corporations infrastructure without the permission of the strata Corporation.

Your replies are becoming more and more questionable as we go. It's obvious that you are prepared to be dishonest to support your position.  You can't have a type  charger in your garage just by buying one on amazon.  You can't modify a strata corporation's infrastructure without their permission. 

So seeing as you were dishonest about that it makes me wonder what else you were dishonest about with regards to your experiences with the vehicles. 

 

The technology isn't there, and very clearly those who are in love with the idea are prepared to be dishonest in order to try and sell the concepts to others. A niche market exists where it's a good idea but until the technology improves it is not going to replace ice

[Guest]

On 5/25/2024 at 2:17 PM, Legato said:

(GM is having difficulty selling them). 

Sounds like a piece of s*** car.

Anyone see the Cybertruck from Tesla video, which is stuck in snow, with all wheels turning making it worse....videotaped by a man in his Silverado, effortlessly driving through the snow storm?

The one test from your all wheel drive truck should have been passed with flying colors.