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Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.


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10 minutes ago, herbie said:

OMG the object is to reduce CO2 emissions. Electrification does that whether BEV, PHEV or mild hybrid. Vehicles are a major source.

If we pulled every single car in Canada off the road china would replace all of that CO2 in less than 6 months at the rate they're growing.

And for Ontario and most of the prairie provinces who have to burn fossil fuels to provide the electricity the actual savings is fairly minimum when you take all factors into account.

So if that's the goal it's a dumb goal.

If you want an intelligent goal then you should be looking at dumping money into research that is likely to produce an energy storage solution that allows us to actually make the move to electrical vehicles as well as other electrical uses. We will never be able to make a lithium ion battery that works well compared to fuel. But it is possible to create storage solutions that are, there are many companies working on it right now.

Or solve some of the problems with hydrogen

But taking something that is not a solution and trying to pretend in your mind that it is a solution is not a solution

Don't expect me to take it seriously if you won't.

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Do you have to instantly replay with your usual same old shit? We're not talking about f*cking China.

You wanna talk about China then talk about how you'll be driving a Chinese EV in 15 years because stubborn contrarian asses like yourself nailed N American car production's feet to the floor for another umpteen years.

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2 hours ago, herbie said:

Do you have to instantly replay with your usual same old shit? We're not talking about f*cking China.

 

In Reply to your usual same old shit? Yeah, that's how truth works. The truth will be the same today as it is tomorrow. So when you spout your bullshit and I reply truthfully it's going to sound the same. Don't get mad if by some miracle two plus two still equals four tomorrow

And we absolutely are talking about china. Maybe you didn't realize this but global climate change is a GLOBAL Issue. So it absolutely does matter what's happening in china. If nothing we do can change the circumstances at all because of how small we are as a polluter then we have to take a look at that and take it into consideration. Attempting to bankrupt our nation or transit to technology that is simply not good enough yet when it has no impact other than to make you feel better and pretend you've done something useful when you haven't would be stupid.

2 hours ago, herbie said:

You wanna talk about China then talk about how you'll be driving a Chinese EV in 15 years because stubborn contrarian asses like yourself nailed N American car production's feet to the floor for another umpteen years.

Not going to happen and we both know it. The technology just isn't there yet. When the technology is there then all automakers will naturally transition and buyers will welcome the opportunity. It has nothing to do with being stubborn, it has everything to do with being truthful.

When the technology is there nobody will have to be told, there will not have to be any subsidies, automakers will just do it. But the technology is not there yet. It will be someday. But today is not that day

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4 hours ago, herbie said:

Electrification does that whether BEV, PHEV or mild hybrid.

Not necessarily.

A hybrid if driven properly, is highly efficient.

It otherwise isn't demonstrably different from an ICE.

IE I have a lead foot. A hybrid car would not be used properly by me. It would be an inefficient vehicle.

Rolling at 130km/h on the highway, I assure you is not good use of a hybrid car.

Constantly idling, or stop and go traffic which I avoid, would be perfect.

I am better off in my ICE.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

Total opposition to any cost of change and stubborn resistance to any change whatsoever.

I don't think its opposition. It's questioning the validity of that change in actually doing anything my current vehicle is not.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

and act like that's something to be proud of?

I don't think I would be proud of owning an EV, for the simple fact that they don't meet my needs.

I prefer logic over virtue signaling points. 

Logically speaking, my fuel sipping car uses very little fuel, efficiently. A hybrid car, is outright inefficient, and an EV which I have tested several, just doesn't meet my needs.

I don't understand those proud of shunning the technology,  but certainly do those who don't feel it is suitable for their driving requirements based on evidence. 

4 hours ago, herbie said:

Some people just don't like change

I don't see the harm in that, if the change isn't better than what you're using.

An EV may be better for the planet, but on paper, isn't better than an ICE in many performance aspects.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

The Western world they claim to love has done nothing but change for the last 1,000 years.

Change is easily adopted, when what you're bringing to the table blows the competition away.

The first I Phone.

Internet, touch screen. 

I had a brick cellphone. I knew people with flip phones. These literally looked like garbage in comparison. Ground breaking. Industry changing.

Woke policies point to the benefit. Shame those who don't adopt.

Pragmatic policies will look at the reality. Make strategic improvements in preparation, and eventually once the technology reaches first I Phone status, I think its fair to say, it will be nice to point and laugh at their shoebox sized phones, while you effortlessly tuck yours in your back pocket.

Right now, most EVs, look like flip phones to me. 

Once they don't, I will be first in line for an upgrade.

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So I could cruise the highway at 130 in these parts? Maybe in a Bugatti Veyron with 4wd and studded Blizzaks? Steel rock deflectors in front for summertime?

Took the Coquihalla once just so I could legally drive that fast. The gas gauge on the Wrangler moved as fast as it did... and once going the other way down the hill into Hope, a Smart Car passed us going at least 130...

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3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Not necessarily.

A hybrid if driven properly, is highly efficient.

It otherwise isn't demonstrably different from an ICE.

IE I have a lead foot. A hybrid car would not be used properly by me. It would be an inefficient vehicle.

Rolling at 130km/h on the highway, I assure you is not good use of a hybrid car.

Constantly idling, or stop and go traffic which I avoid, would be perfect.

I am better off in my ICE.

I don't think its opposition. It's questioning the validity of that change in actually doing anything my current vehicle is not.

I don't think I would be proud of owning an EV, for the simple fact that they don't meet my needs.

I prefer logic over virtue signaling points. 

Logically speaking, my fuel sipping car uses very little fuel, efficiently. A hybrid car, is outright inefficient, and an EV which I have tested several, just doesn't meet my needs.

I don't understand those proud of shunning the technology,  but certainly do those who don't feel it is suitable for their driving requirements based on evidence. 

I don't see the harm in that, if the change isn't better than what you're using.

An EV may be better for the planet, but on paper, isn't better than an ICE in many performance aspects.

Change is easily adopted, when what you're bringing to the table blows the competition away.

The first I Phone.

Internet, touch screen. 

I had a brick cellphone. I knew people with flip phones. These literally looked like garbage in comparison. Ground breaking. Industry changing.

Woke policies point to the benefit. Shame those who don't adopt.

Pragmatic policies will look at the reality. Make strategic improvements in preparation, and eventually once the technology reaches first I Phone status, I think its fair to say, it will be nice to point and laugh at their shoebox sized phones, while you effortlessly tuck yours in your back pocket.

Right now, most EVs, look like flip phones to me. 

Once they don't, I will be first in line for an upgrade.

Honestly i think even filp phone might be a little optimistic. Maybe the first gen cells after the famous 'bricks'.  And with the plans available there was no chance of replacing your land line with it. 

Now - the tech has evolved and  lots and lots of people don't have a land line. They just use their cells. My aging mom gave up her land line - and she still calls the microwave the "big clock in the kitchen".      THAT is an example of a mature technology that has successfully supplanted the previous tech entirely. 

24 minutes ago, herbie said:

So I could cruise the highway at 130 in these parts? Maybe in a Bugatti Veyron with 4wd and studded Blizzaks? Steel rock deflectors in front for summertime?

Took the Coquihalla once just so I could legally drive that fast. The gas gauge on the Wrangler moved as fast as it did... and once going the other way down the hill into Hope, a Smart Car passed us going at least 130...

Oh dear.  I see we broke your brain again. 

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7 hours ago, herbie said:

So I could cruise the highway at 130 in these parts?

Anywhere with long open highways, certainly. Winding roads? Not recommended, until electric flying EVs hit the market.

Considering at 120km/h am keeping up to cars in light traffic, I would think it would be safe to say that in any city with flat land and highways going across, nobody is going the speed limit. This on its own, makes hybrids useless.

Many bus fleets like the TTC hyping the hybrid technology were forced to revise their ways after seeing that when put on high speed routes, that it cost them more fuel. Not less.

To run electric reliably with present technology, you're using an overhead catenary system.

Cities like Seattle use them, and these buses work great, which is promising for EV technology.

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6 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Now - the tech has evolved and  lots and lots of people don't have a land line. They just use their cells. My aging mom gave up her land line - and she still calls the microwave the "big clock in the kitchen".      THAT is an example of a mature technology that has successfully supplanted the previous tech entirely. 

Yeah, we don't have a landlines. Cellphones only. 

My nieces and nephews look at me like am a dinosaur, when I tell them about rotary phones.

Or tell them "we would hold the phone between our tilted head and shoulder for long calls". 

They have Bluetooth headphones.

56K modems. You would tell your friends not to call for an hour, so you could download one song. Anyone calling would f*** your plans up.

That sound. Like an alien cyborg being tortured, every single time you connected. 

So you're telling me I could connect quietly, without affecting my phone lines and download illegal unrele...ahem....released movies legally in seconds?! Shut up and take my money! 

Once EVs do this, I will gladly laugh at those dinosaurs sitting at gas stations filling their tanks for 3$ per liter, while I can charge my car with my phone charger in 10 seconds flat for free at the mall, with proof of purchase.

Policies that affect businesses should be administered by people who understand business and consumer goods, in general.

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5 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Yeah, we don't have a landlines. Cellphones only. 

My nieces and nephews look at me like am a dinosaur, when I tell them about rotary phones.

Or tell them "we would hold the phone between our tilted head and shoulder for long calls". 

They have Bluetooth headphones.

56K modems. You would tell your friends not to call for an hour, so you could download one song. Anyone calling would f*** your plans up.

That sound. Like an alien cyborg being tortured, every single time you connected. 

So you're telling me I could connect quietly, without affecting my phone lines and download illegal unrele...ahem....released movies legally in seconds?! Shut up and take my money! 

Once EVs do this, I will gladly laugh at those dinosaurs sitting at gas stations filling their tanks for 3$ per liter, while I can charge my car with my phone charger in 10 seconds flat for free at the mall, with proof of purchase.

Policies that affect businesses should be administered by people who understand business and consumer goods, in general.

LOL  well exactly :) 

When something is a better choice people gravitate towards it naturally. Nobody needed to have subsidies on cars to stop using horses. The government didn't have to pass any laws to get people to move away from abacus's and typewriters when the computer became a common commodity.

And just like the first brick phones eventually led to iPhones and Androids, the current TVs will eventually lead to something that everyone will want to switch to and indeed won't be able to live without.

But eventually isn't today.

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1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

But eventually isn't today.

I don't think I will ever understand those who think shaming works in a free society, when considering the adoption of any product.

I have seen movies do it, when they tanked, and we are seeing it at times, by activists pushing for the elimination of fossil fuels, but not understanding we are dependent on them. They must be reduced over time.

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1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't think I will ever understand those who think shaming works in a free society

Well obviously not on those with no sense of shame whatsoever. Just look South and see how that's running about 33%.

I will continue to shame those who won't consider an EV out of sheer butt stubborness and misinformation. Even knowing those are the main causes of having no shame at all.

8 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Anywhere with long open highways, certainly. Winding roads? Not recommended, until electric flying EVs hit the market.

Considering at 120km/h am keeping up to cars in light traffic

OMG I live in BC... 90% of drivers have never touched that deadly dangerous cruise control thing. You have to slow down to 75 if there's a curve in the road, eide your brakes down a hill at 80 or you'll roll over and explode in flames. The only time they go 130 is when there's a passing lane and they pull right and gun it so no one can pass.
And the polite Alberta drivers all pull right and wave you to pass whenever there's a solid double line, blind curve or crest of a hill.
I must be an absolute maniac, I get to just enough above the posted limit to not get a ticket, push the f*cking button and go the same speed on the straight, through the curves, up and down the hill. And don't care for shit if the engine is a 660cc, a V8, runs on gas, propane, steam or a damn battery.

Yeah your range is reduced the faster you drive, just like in the car you drive today. They're all built with 55 mph. 90 kmh as their most efficient speed.

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18 minutes ago, herbie said:

I will continue to shame those who won't consider an EV out of sheer butt stubborness and misinformation. Even knowing those are the main causes of having no shame at all.

 

Well that's a shame. Wanting to shame people because they won't follow your ideological virtue signaling nonsense.

The biggest shame is you ignoring the valid points pointed out in this thread regarding the inadequacies of current EV's.

The shame sits squarely on your head.

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1 hour ago, herbie said:

Well obviously not on those with no sense of shame whatsoever.

or with people who have a brain and a reasonable sense of self-confidence and aren't neurotic emotional wrecks that depend on validation from a circle jerk echo chamber in opposition to the facts.

Which rules you out :) 

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1 hour ago, herbie said:

 

OMG I live in BC... 90% of drivers have never touched that deadly dangerous cruise control thing.

Everyone uses cruise control you 1diot. It's one of the most popular features on a car in BC. Not only that, the newer versions of it with radar make it practically a must-have. I set my cruise control every time I drive the car and you get better gas mileage, and when it senses a car ahead it just slows down to match its speed and speeds up again when it does. Even comes to a stop when they do. And this is a fairly entry-level vehicle.

Have you ever considered opening your mouth and NOT looking like a complete !diot?

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3 hours ago, Legato said:

Wanting to shame people because they won't follow your ideological virtue signaling nonsense.

No wanting to shame them because they make fake excuses like virtue signalling to convince themselves they aren't stubborn as mules.

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Everyone uses cruise control you 1diot. It's one of the most popular features on a car in BC.

That's why they speed up and slow down along long straight stretches, speed up when you try to pass and ride their brakes down a hill, jam the brakes on at the end of a passing lane eh? Either you don't drive much or you're as unaware behind the wheel as they are.

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4 hours ago, herbie said:

will continue to shame those who won't consider an EV 

What you buy is a personal choice. Seems rather futile.

I mean, if you offered to help with payments, you would be onto something. 

Otherwise sounds like virtue signaling which does more for you than anything for anyone else.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

Yeah your range is reduced the faster you drive

With an ICE, am simply wasting fuel. A hybrid is you defeating the entire point of your purchase. 

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2 hours ago, herbie said:

No wanting to shame them because they make fake excuses like virtue signalling to convince themselves they aren't stubborn as mules.

 

So what you're saying is you know that you are wrong and you're hoping that you can convince people with shame rather than by lying to them as you have been.

Seems a bit silly, but you do you.

The only thing shameful here is the pathetic performance by the left and their incessant virtue signaling. Learn to follow the science kid

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6 hours ago, herbie said:

No wanting to shame them because they make fake excuses

You are wanting to shame them, because you feel an EV or higher taxes will stop forest fires.

Reality, is you buying an EV does absolutely nothing to stop them.

"Well at least am doing, something!" to me is that guy who appears last during a brawl, to kick an already unconscious opponent. Next day, talking about how he f***ed that guy up.

Thats participation trophy levels of contribution. Its pat yourself on the back, on paper levels of contribution. 

Just like those who conserve their water, minimize their waste and contribute just like you do.

In life, you don't need a trophy for doing something, and as adults you sometimes do things without getting appreciation for it.

Did you buy your EV for your own ambitions, or to get a trophy?

If its the latter, maybe reexamine the former?

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I told you why I will shame some people, because they refuse to think and hinder others.

Now if you* enjoy 60% or more of the energy you paid for being spewed out the engine & tailpipe and lugging 100 lbs of water and cooling equipment to getting 90% of the energy you paid for, you're not thinking.
And if you'd prefer govt invest that money in a couple more refineries rather than EV & battery plants, you're forcefully not thinking.
If you object to EVs by claiming the costs of resource extraction while totally ignoring those of getting oil and acting like ICE vehicles grow like potatoes, you're maliciously thinking with intent to be an obstructionist.

You know that you don't "need" an F150 4x4 to go to work or the supermarket, I managed back in the 1980s with my little 2L D50 pickup and moved shit into my new house and moved friends with it too. Now we have one choice a damn Maverick double the size with 4 doors and a 6" cargo bed for $55,000 and the same or worse gas mileage! That's progress? After 40 years the same mileage and CO2 emissions less practicality for 5 times the price on both vehicle and gasoline?
I got rid of that little truck because I had my second kid. Now I'm a retired rural senior that would buy one of those again, electrified or not. Even use a Kei truck for work for 6 years in town and carrying radio and tower equipment up mountain tops without bawling that it was too small and uncomfortable to take the kids to WallyWorld in.

* not you personally, you the group I've mentioned repeatedly.

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2 hours ago, herbie said:

they refuse to think

I think what you really mean, is they refuse to think like you

2 hours ago, herbie said:

you're not thinking

Again. Not thinking like you

Not everyone can afford an EV. Am happy for you that you can.

Shaming people for this, really does nothing. Honestly. What do you gain from this, other than personal gratification of an illusion you give yourself of "doing something"?

If anything, this is like a co-worker I had who shamed me for eating bacon during lunch. 

She reminded me how pigs suffered. I don't care what you eat. I didn't comment on her food. 

That level of entitlement will only get people to ignore you, and dig in their heels further.

Instead of shaming, you should be looking at the concerns voiced by the consumers. This actually gets things done. Resolving issues, to ensure future adoption.

Thinking shaming works in this case, when you're the minority is the epitome of not thinking. 

2 hours ago, herbie said:

you object to EVs

There isn't any objection. I'm not on the market for one, as one doesn't meet my current driving needs. 

Doesn't matter to me what anyone thinks of it, as will buy based on need. Not based on what others shame me into buying.

2 hours ago, herbie said:

You know that you don't "need" an F150 4x4 to go to work or the supermarket

We have properties in the Philippines. Our next vehicle will likely be purchased for there. Good luck with an EV where there literally is zero infrastructure to charge it.

Our properties are in a mountainous rainforest. Many unfinished roads, meaning a car would not be recommended. Either you buy a motorcycle, or you get a pickup truck or SUV, or stay out of the rural areas.

Like I said. You are out of touch with the reality most people face. 

Travel a little. Most on this planet are more focused on food on table, roof over head than buying an over priced EV they can't afford.

2 hours ago, herbie said:

That's progress?

My car is a personal choice. I buy it accordingly based on what I need.

In Canada, this means high MPG, reliable and high resale value.

In the Philippines where we intend on retiring early, it will be centered on mobility and reliability.

The world doesn't revolve around your needs. 

If you ran a McDonald's franchise in that country, you would go out of business. 

You like fries and burgers, so feel entitled to impose your will onto others. Markets don't work that way.

You truly need to observe what consumers want. 

Ignoring this, will have consumers continue to shun EVs and rightfully so.

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Once again, I'm not talking about you personally. You've made it clear that if you saw an EV or PHEV that met your needs and price you would consider it.
And I'm talking about thinking rationally, not "like me". As above if it met your needs and price only a fool would still refuse to consider one. As I said before, it's not regulations and incentives that will drive people to EVs, it's oil companies and the car makers. They're already hiking ICE vehicle prices to nearly the price levels of EVs they're counting you will put up with even more.

Kia Niro Hybrid - from $33,000 4.4L/100km 52mpgUS
Kia Niro PHEV - from $38,000
Kia Niro BEV - from $48,500
Average spent in Canada 2023 new vehicle purchase $67,817 (autotrader.ca)

NOT outrageous prices comparatively.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, herbie said:

Once again, I'm not talking about you personally. You've made it clear that if you saw an EV or PHEV that met your needs and price you would consider it.

 

And there's the rub. Not everyone wants to purchase an expensive virtue signaling set of bagpipes where the bag needs to be constantly refilled even only after a few bars of Scotland The Brave . Most peoples need are filled by purchasing a less expensive set of exhaust pipes that require much less filling and are good for all of Bach's piano concerto's on one fill. 

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8 hours ago, herbie said:

I told you why I will shame some people, because they refuse to think and hinder others.

So in other words because they won't repeat your lies and follow your instructions you'd like to shame them. Otherwise you'll throw a hissy fit. 

Congratulations, you have reached the emotional level of a 4-year-old.

If you actually gave a Flying Fig about climate change you would have been arguing against the carbon tax I'm looking for better solutions years ago. All you care about is virtue signaling and I'm not interested and neither are a lot of Canadians

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4 hours ago, herbie said:

Once again, I'm not talking about you personally. You've made it clear that if you saw an EV or PHEV that met your needs and price you would consider it.
And I'm talking about thinking rationally, not "like me". As above if it met your needs and price only a fool would still refuse to consider one. As I said before, it's not regulations and incentives that will drive people to EVs, it's oil companies and the car makers. They're already hiking ICE vehicle prices to nearly the price levels of EVs they're counting you will put up with even more.

Kia Niro Hybrid - from $33,000 4.4L/100km 52mpgUS
Kia Niro PHEV - from $38,000
Kia Niro BEV - from $48,500
Average spent in Canada 2023 new vehicle purchase $67,817 (autotrader.ca)

NOT outrageous prices comparatively.

 

Completely outrageous prices. Average new vehicle purchase is irrelevant, you're including trucks in that. A person who needs a large truck is not going to be interested in a Kia Niro.

And someone can buy a Toyota corolla for about $10,000 less than the lowest near hybrid. And it's gas mileage isn't much worse. 10 grand buys a lot of gas.

And your costs assume that there is no financing involved. If you have to pay interest on that then the actual costs are very different. You'll add about an additional 4000 dollars out of your pocket during the loan depending on the terms (could be more).  So  now you're at a 14,000  dollar price difference. Oops  forgot sales tax too. 

I bet if i came and demanded you give me 14,000 and gave you nothing in return you'd be pissed. That's pretty much what you're asking people to do

Again you ignore the facts and have to lie to try and prove your point, which means your point is bullshit and so are you

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4 hours ago, herbie said:

Kia Niro Hybrid - from $33,000 4.4L/100km 52mpgUS
Kia Niro PHEV - from $38,000
Kia Niro BEV - from $48,500
Average spent in Canada 2023 new vehicle purchase $67,817 (autotrader.ca)

I don't know about you, but I look at proven technologies.

Right now, that's Tesla and BYD. The latter have been perfecting their battery game since 1995.

Proven track records of both reliability, high range, and incredibly efficient battery technology.

If I am on the market, I would buy either, but likelier to buy a BYD if and when it cracked our market. You get far more for the same price point. Their batteries are insanely advanced as well as safe.

The bang for the buck is major. Also a good reason why BYD is dominating in the EV sphere currently, as are ICE vehicles.

If I am buying a 30 - 40K vehicle, I will go with what gives me the most value, reliability and range.

Right how, I would be looking at a Toyota Rav-4 or similar ICE, based on the model you have shown.

I am getting a great trim if I splurge a couple more grand (and we still wouldn't have cracked the 40K price point).

Makes absolutely no sense to me, to buy that EV.

Last time I bought an unproven vehicle, it cost me nearly 5 grand a year, to keep that lemon on the road within a couple years. Maintenance costs being extra.

3 hours ago, Legato said:

And there's the rub. Not everyone wants to purchase an expensive virtue signaling set of bagpipes where the bag needs to be constantly refilled even only after a few bars of Scotland The Brave . Most peoples need are filled by purchasing a less expensive set of exhaust pipes that require much less filling and are good for all of Bach's piano concerto's on one fill. 

Exaxtly. If I use my above example, I know for certain my Rav-4 would last me for a decade or two if I wanted it to. There would be no question.

My car is a 2012. It looks and still operates like new pushing close to 200, 000kms.

There is absolutely zero doubt this vehicle could take me to 300k.

I have had people offer me more than its market value for it, seeing how new I keep it looking.

There would be nothing but questions if I bought the EV model he just posted.

4 hours ago, herbie said:

You've made it clear that if you saw an EV or PHEV that met your needs and price you would consider it.

I also mentioned that vehicle currently does not exist. Many would buy one, if those needs were met.

I am being squeezed on fuel costs, but that pressure isn't enough to pressure me to buy a vehicle that potentially could cost me more down the road.

5 hours ago, herbie said:

As I said before, it's not regulations and incentives that will drive people to EVs, it's oil companies and the car makers. They're already hiking ICE vehicle prices to nearly the price levels of EVs they're counting you will put up with even more.

At that point with the current economy, you may risk driving down auto sales altogether.

I would refuse to buy my current car brand new at 50, 000$. I couldn't care less what features are inside it.

It wouldn't sway me to buy EV. I bike a lot in the summer. I would likely invest in a top of the line bike, and consider public transit, and focus the ICE for the Philippines. 

The only way you get buyers, is selling them the product they want to buy. Period.

 

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