Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[Guest]

I just don't think mass adoption is the true goal, regarding EVs. If it were, governments would welcome competition, like from China.

This would drive prices down, and truly make the technology compete with ICEs.

Slowing this down to me, is like Samsung and Apple phones, that have a comfortable monopoly here in the west.

There aren't many Chinese phones competing with them, even though Huawei, is a strong competitor. 

I hadn't even known they had more advanced phones than what I saw in our market, until I went to China.

So, let me get this straight. I can get more bang for my buck for a phone just like my Samsung Galaxy, for less, or in paying more get way more features?

Shut up and take my money!

I get you don't want to hurt the domestic brands, but there needs to be an awareness that unless you make EVs better and affordable to all who can afford a car, you will never get mass adoption (if this is in fact the goal, vs voting brownie points for virtual signaling about it).

[CdnFox]

10 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Unfortunately. 

Once we are, it will likely make no sense to drive freight trucks that aren't fully electric (the sheer weight of batteries make these unfavorable, due to many making their money based on payload).

 

Many groups are working on energy storage technology which vastly exceeds our current battery concept. Presumably the long-term answer lies in finding something along those lines, something that radically outperforms our current technology much in the way that gasoline outperformed wood when it came to storing fire energy. 

It will happen. It's only a matter of time. As far as solving the engine issue goes, electricity is an ideal answer. We just need to be able to store it and produce it more effectively.

Edited June 23, 2024 by CdnFox

[herbie]

20 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Hydrogen cars are far more inefficient than EVs

They ARE EVs. Burning hydrogen in and ICE is, because that is an inefficient technology, more than 60% loss to heat and friction.
Fuel cells deliver almost 100% of the fuel into electricity, and electric motors almost up to 90% of the energy to the drive wheels.

Hydrogen injection into diesel engines increases mileage and reduces emissions, similar to ethanol increasing the octane rating and lowers emissions in gas engines. Fuel cells have a way to go yet in cars, give them 10 years they'll be a little more than BEVs.
They're already in server rooms and broadcast sites all over the place.

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, herbie said:

They ARE EVs. Burning hydrogen in and ICE is, because that is an inefficient technology, more than 60% loss to heat and friction.
Fuel cells deliver almost 100% of the fuel into electricity, and electric motors almost up to 90% of the energy to the drive wheels.

Hydrogen injection into diesel engines increases mileage and reduces emissions, similar to ethanol increasing the octane rating and lowers emissions in gas engines. Fuel cells have a way to go yet in cars, give them 10 years they'll be a little more than BEVs.
They're already in server rooms and broadcast sites all over the place.

So what you're saying is the technology isn't ready yet.

Tokyo while but glad to see you finally got there  

[Guest]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So what you're saying is the technology isn't ready yet.

Heh, seriously. I don't see what is wrong about pointing to how something can get better.

 

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Heh, seriously. I don't see what is wrong about pointing to how something can get better.

 

It makes me crazy. But at the end of the day the reason is because their ideology demands that we take action immediately even if it's ineffective, so having absolutely everyone switch to Ev's tomorrow is paramount to their woke talking points.

So even though it's not possible, and even though the technology is not quite there yet, and even though some people will switch because the current technology will work for them, that's not good enough. They still have to demand that anyone who doesn't agree with them lockstep is an evil denier. 

[ironstone]

On 6/23/2024 at 8:26 AM, Perspektiv said:

I get you don't want to hurt the domestic brands, but there needs to be an awareness that unless you make EVs better and affordable to all who can afford a car, you will never get mass adoption (if this is in fact the goal, vs voting brownie points for virtual signaling about it).

They've got a long way to go if the market today is any indication.

https://insideevs.com/news/713577/ev-50k-losses-bcg-study/

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/24/business/ford-earnings-ev-losses/index.html

 

 
Ford’s electric vehicle unit reported that losses soared in the first quarter to $1.3 billion, or $132,000 for each of the 10,000 vehicles it sold in the first three months of the year, helping to drag down earnings for the company overall.

I believe the cheapest EV in Canada now is the Nissan Leaf at about 41 grand. 

[herbie]

10 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Heh, seriously. I don't see what is wrong about pointing to how something can get better.

Because you're not a malicious petty loser.

3 hours ago, ironstone said:

They've got a long way to go if the market today is any indication

The market is growing fast enough that the BC govt dropped the qualifying price for EV subsidies from $55K to $50K, and Tesla (top selling "car") instantly dropped it's price to $49,900.
Leaving "only" a choice of 70 EVs that qualify....

Don't quote the blundering mis-steps of the Big 3 as sales indicators. The USA has fallen so far behind in auto innovation it's pitiful to look to them for inspiration.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, ironstone said:

the Nissan Leaf at about 41 grand. 

I can't even fit my left testicle in a car that small o_O

Paying 41K for it, would be akin of paying 500$ for a ballpoint pen.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, herbie said:

Because you're not a malicious petty loser.

I like progress. I buy in when that progress works for me.

I don't have any shame in pointing to where and when that it doesn't.

A car maker should see feedback like gold no marketing campaign could provide you with.

[herbie]

2 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

A car maker should see feedback like gold

Oh don't you wish that was true!
Last three times I was in the market all 3 had stopped making what I was looking for and converted to bigger, lees functional, way more expensive versions.
I noticed that in the 10 years since I bought my Wrangler the base price has doubled, the 2 doors are missing off the lots for the $80-$90K models and they've improved the gas mileage by a whole 0.1L/100km.
And all vehicles now have multi thousands of dollars of computers and screens almost as powerful as a $100 Raspberry Pi.

[Boges]

On 6/23/2024 at 4:11 AM, CdnFox said:

more expensive too. But it's easier to store and fill a hydrogen car than it is to charge a battery.

We're sooooo close.  But just not there yet. 

The main problem with Hydrogen is that it's pointless if it can't be made without green energy. It's quite energy intensive to make Hydrogen. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

It's quite energy intensive to make Hydrogen. 

Plus all hydrogen cars I have seen, look like a broke down Transformer robot mid transformation, on crack.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

The main problem with Hydrogen is that it's pointless if it can't be made without green energy. It's quite energy intensive to make Hydrogen. 

Far less than gasoline and i understand they're making advancements there too. 

But again, yes. the tech isn't quite there. 

[herbie]

6 hours ago, Boges said:

The main problem with Hydrogen is that it's pointless if it can't be made without green energy. It's quite energy intensive to make Hydrogen. 

As pointed out in the article I linked, a lot of hydrogen is a byproduct of something else. Now just being released into the atmosphere.
And at every hydro dam there are many hours they aren't generating to capacity. That amounts to electrical potential being wasted. Toss in what could be made with other green energy.

Don't give ammunition to the "we aren't doing it right now, so it can't be done" crowd/

[Boges]

18 hours ago, herbie said:

As pointed out in the article I linked, a lot of hydrogen is a byproduct of something else. Now just being released into the atmosphere.
And at every hydro dam there are many hours they aren't generating to capacity. That amounts to electrical potential being wasted. Toss in what could be made with other green energy.

Don't give ammunition to the "we aren't doing it right now, so it can't be done" crowd/

What I'm saying is, at least with Hydrogen, It's a cart before horse scenario. 

The priority is making renewable energy more widespread. There's no point in making hydrogen with coal-powered electricity.  

I read somewhere that Spain could be the new hub for Hydrogen production because of their ability to generate lots of solar energy. 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

What I'm saying is, at least with Hydrogen, It's a cart before horse scenario. 

The priority is making renewable energy more widespread. There's no point in making hydrogen with coal-powered electricity.  

 

then why is there a point to making EVS which are charged with coal powered electricity? We're doing that now.

[Boges]

11 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

then why is there a point to making EVS which are charged with coal powered electricity? We're doing that now.

Well a lot of markets have moved away from Coal, it's not part of the grid in Ontario. Much of Europe also doesn't use coal. 

I guess if the case can be made that Hydrogen derived from Natural gas is still a lower carbon process than using gasoline, then sure. But you still have to deliver the Hydrogen to a "gas" station. 

If you do the math on the amount of energy a litre of gasoline represents and how much energy an EV uses, the case can easily be made that the EV uses much less energy, regardless of the source. 

Google says a litre of gasoline represents about 9 kwh of energy. Even the biggest EVs only have a battery that's around 100 kwh. So what 10 litres of gas? Even the smallest ICE vehicles needs 20-30 litres of gas for a decent range. 

 

[herbie]

5 hours ago, Boges said:

There's no point in making hydrogen with coal-powered electricity.

So who's proposing that? Only total ignorant blockheads like Trump are promoting coal in 2024. And the ones just being stubborn contrarians claiming that's how we make electricity. Might as well be talking about electricity made from whale oil.

5 hours ago, Boges said:

The priority is making renewable energy more widespread.

That IS the entire point behind all this.
They'll be announcing tariffs on Chinese EVs today, supposedly to protect jobs here but overall a roadblock to promoting EV adoption.

[Boges]

41 minutes ago, herbie said:

So who's proposing that? Only total ignorant blockheads like Trump are promoting coal in 2024. And the ones just being stubborn contrarians claiming that's how we make electricity. Might as well be talking about electricity made from whale oil.

I would agree normally. But that's probably how much of the developing world will be getting their hydro for a little while you. 

But yes. Much of the developed world is leaving it behind. 

[herbie]

On 6/26/2024 at 1:17 PM, Boges said:

But that's probably how much of the developing world will be getting their hydro for a little while you. 

And the developing world has already adapted it's cars, not due to CO2 but to absurd gas prices and poverty. Kei card, tuktuks, motorbikes, engines measured in cc's not litres. Almost none could afford an EV.
Tack on:
- any dams would affect many other countries downstream, not like in Canada, and the USA. Near wars over dams on the Nile, Ganges, Mekong rivers.
- too butt poor and unstable to even think of nuclear

[herbie]

Time to revisit this issue in light of recent events.

A - the federal EV program has run out of money already. Was supposed to continue until Mar 31, but no way a new rebate program could be voted in, not even a chance the current one can get the funds to continue until Mar 31st

B - PP will end the rebates if he gets in

C - Trump's tariff threats endanger the $5 billion EV plant Honda was going to build in Ontario

D - Quebec ended it's rebate program and BC has scaled its program back.

Much has happened in 6 months.