Boges Posted August 30, 2021 Author Report Posted August 30, 2021 DoFo is finally on the right side of History. https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-will-unveil-covid-19-vaccine-passport-system-source-confirms-1.5563835 Quote TORONTO -- The Doug Ford government will unveil a COVID-19 vaccine passport system this week, a senior government source confirms. The source told CTV News Toronto the certificate will be required in non-essential settings, like restaurants and movie theatres. Ford will meet with this cabinet next week to finalize the plan, the source said. Quote
Shady Posted August 30, 2021 Report Posted August 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Boges said: DoFo is finally on the right side of History. https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-will-unveil-covid-19-vaccine-passport-system-source-confirms-1.5563835 Well the feds finally provided funding. Quote
Boges Posted August 30, 2021 Author Report Posted August 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, Shady said: Well the feds finally provided funding. From Friday. I guess, in between being harassed by Anti-Vaxxers. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-promises-1b-vaccine-passports-1.6155618 Quote Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau today announced a billion-dollar fund to help provinces create their own vaccine passports — credentials people vaccinated against COVID-19 can show to businesses to make everyday activities safer. Speaking to reporters at a campaign stop in Mississauga, Ont., Trudeau said he wants to see "Canadians moving again in a safe and responsible way." He said the best way to do that is to create a tool the vaccinated can use to prove they've had their shots before entering a store, arena or office. Quote
Shady Posted August 30, 2021 Report Posted August 30, 2021 46 minutes ago, Boges said: From Friday. I guess, in between being harassed by Anti-Vaxxers. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-promises-1b-vaccine-passports-1.6155618 There’s a lot of people harassing him. People sick if paying 20 cents more per lite than necessary. Some people are annoyed that he called an election during a pandemic which was nothing more than an attempted power grab. Some people just think he’s an asshole. Quote
Boges Posted August 30, 2021 Author Report Posted August 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, Shady said: There’s a lot of people harassing him. People sick if paying 20 cents more per lite than necessary. Some people are annoyed that he called an election during a pandemic which was nothing more than an attempted power grab. Some people just think he’s an asshole. Except for the Carbon Tax, I agree. But harassing his campaign is not a good look for those that are on the fence. Quote
Shady Posted August 30, 2021 Report Posted August 30, 2021 Just now, Boges said: Except for the Carbon Tax, I agree. But harassing his campaign is not a good look for those that are on the fence. Generally I agree, but protest is fine. Usually it’s Republicans and conservatives on the receiving end of it. I don’t remember people having an issue with it. When you’re an unpopular politician it’s going to happen. Quote
taxme Posted August 30, 2021 Report Posted August 30, 2021 6 hours ago, Boges said: AFIK most Property in Canada is NOT owned by the government. My home is owned by a highly profitable bank that charges me 3% interest paying off the loan I took out. With capitalism the idea is pretty much the same as communism. If one is willing to work hard then one will make the money. So, why get rid of capitalism. At least with capitalism, we do not have the government telling someone as to how much money they can earn from their abilities to work hard to make more money. With communism, no one is allowed to get rich. The people will be all kept at a certain level of pay which of course will mean that no one will ever be able to have all that they want. With communism everything and everybody is government controlled. The communist government will dictate as to what you can and cannot have. It was not so long ago that there was some buffoon that no doubt works for the globalists who said that "you will have nothing and you will be happy about it". Even the shirt on your back will be government owned. Hey, if people want all the government that they can get in their life then just keep voting for the likes of comrade pro globalist Fidel Trudeau. Fidel and the NDP communist party will gladly take all that you own with pleasure. ? Quote
taxme Posted August 30, 2021 Report Posted August 30, 2021 4 hours ago, Shady said: Well the feds finally provided funding. The feds are handing over 1.8 billion of our tax dollars to all provinces to push for more vaccines and vaccine passports. Shocking indeed. This is communism plain and simple. Who ever thought that just two years ago we would be talking about people needing covid vaccine passports to be allowed to live and enjoy life. Whatever happened to freedom of choice in Canada? ? Quote
Boges Posted August 30, 2021 Author Report Posted August 30, 2021 1 minute ago, taxme said: The feds are handing over 1.8 billion of our tax dollars to all provinces to push for more vaccines and vaccine passports. Shocking indeed. This is communism plain and simple. Who ever thought that just two years ago we would be talking about people needing covid vaccine passports to be allowed to live and enjoy life. Whatever happened to freedom of choice in Canada? ? What happened to freedom of choice to wear a seatbelt or not? Quote
taxme Posted August 30, 2021 Report Posted August 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, Boges said: What happened to freedom of choice to wear a seatbelt or not? No one should be forced to have to wear a seat belt or be forced to have to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle or a bicycle or a tricycle. It's f'n stupid. it's all just more government intrusion into peoples lives, as if we do not have enough government intrusion in our lives. I wonder as to how long it will be before I am told that I am allowed to have just two pees a day and one crap a day. I will probably be told that it will be good for the environment and will help stop global warming. ? Quote
Accountability Now Posted August 30, 2021 Report Posted August 30, 2021 Wondering if the new vaccine passports will include people who have had COVID already. They probably should now that this study was released: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital Quote
Boges Posted August 31, 2021 Author Report Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, Accountability Now said: Wondering if the new vaccine passports will include people who have had COVID already. They probably should now that this study was released: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital In theory it should, but the risks of getting a vaccine are still next to non-existent even if you have been previously vaccinated. Trump still got vaccinated. Edited August 31, 2021 by Boges Quote
OftenWrong Posted August 31, 2021 Report Posted August 31, 2021 15 minutes ago, Boges said: In theory it should, but the risks of getting a vaccine are still next to non-existent even if you have been previously vaccinated. Trump still got vaccinated. Trump probably chose to do so freely and willingly. What we are now doing is saying "people are not smart enough to decide for themselves on a case-by-case basis. Therefore the government will decide broadly." As though that were truly better. One question is why the family doctor is being excluded from this decision. I want to talk to my doctor who knows my personal history and who has the skills to assess what is needed, on a case-by-case basis. I want their advice. Not some blanket order for all, stamped on a page by some government chivato. Quote
Accountability Now Posted August 31, 2021 Report Posted August 31, 2021 10 minutes ago, Boges said: In theory it should, but the risks of getting a vaccine are still next to non-existent even if you have been previously vaccinated. Trump still got vaccinated. So you trust the science when it works for you but not against you? Why not take 10 doses of vaccine at one time then. Why not wear a blue shirt while getting vaccinated. If you are immune then you are immune whether its from Even Israel acknowledges past infection as a form of vaccination. PS...Trump should get it. He's old and probably has health issues. Again...my belief is that people with health issues or elderly should get it. The rest should choose. Quote
Boges Posted August 31, 2021 Author Report Posted August 31, 2021 4 minutes ago, Accountability Now said: So you trust the science when it works for you but not against you? Why not take 10 doses of vaccine at one time then. Why not wear a blue shirt while getting vaccinated. If you are immune then you are immune whether its from Even Israel acknowledges past infection as a form of vaccination. PS...Trump should get it. He's old and probably has health issues. Again...my belief is that people with health issues or elderly should get it. The rest should choose. From a theoretical perspective that may work. But many young healthy people are still getting sick. And they may not know of underlying conditions that make them vulnerable. A vaccine is the most sensible option. Especially when you start talking about Health Issues. There are tough objective standards to be applied for that. Obesity? Blood Pressure Issues? Cholesterol? We get a lot of good data from the Government. But we still don't know the ages of those Hospitalized now and how many have obvious co-morbidities. It leads to assumptions. Quote
Accountability Now Posted August 31, 2021 Report Posted August 31, 2021 27 minutes ago, Boges said: From a theoretical perspective that may work. But many young healthy people are still getting sick. And they may not know of underlying conditions that make them vulnerable. A vaccine is the most sensible option. We've been through this before. Your version of many hasn't been quantified. The ratio of young people to old people may be increasing but I haven't seen an objective increase in numbers. As I showed you from Public Health England, the data shows the number of young kids hospitalized in previous waves was roughly the same as the Delta waves. The US might be showing an increase in numbers but again (as per the article I shared with you) the concern there is the obesity level in kids involved. 31 minutes ago, Boges said: We get a lot of good data from the Government. But we still don't know the ages of those Hospitalized now and how many have obvious co-morbidities. It leads to assumptions. Either you aren't looking hard enough or choosing not to look. Although...I do recall presenting most of this data to you earlier so I'm guessing its the latter. By age...https://www.statista.com/statistics/1228610/number-covid-cases-hospitalized-canada-by-age/ People under 20 have made up 1.93% of the hospitalizations. By comorbidity ....there are a number of sites that address this but I feel one of the best is the Province of Alberta. (https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#comorbidities It shows cases, hospitalizations, ICU and deaths based on the number of comorbidities you have. 3.2% of deaths in Alberta came from people with no comorbidities. Roughly 20% of ICU, 24.5% of hospitalizations and 68.4% of cases. More important to note that 84% of deaths have involved people with hypertension (high blood pressure). Its not hard to go down to your local Shoppers Drug Mart and test your blood pressure. What would be even more interesting is to see more detailed info on comorbidities and age together. A number of articles I have read have commented that a significant number of young people in the ICU had comorbidities but I have yet to see stats on it. We can go down the rabbit hole of what the vaccine does but I see you have deflected away from the point I made in that having natural infection provides better protection than a vaccine. So why wouldn't it be added to the vaccine passport other than agenda? Quote
Boges Posted August 31, 2021 Author Report Posted August 31, 2021 14 minutes ago, Accountability Now said: We've been through this before. Your version of many hasn't been quantified. The ratio of young people to old people may be increasing but I haven't seen an objective increase in numbers. As I showed you from Public Health England, the data shows the number of young kids hospitalized in previous waves was roughly the same as the Delta waves. The US might be showing an increase in numbers but again (as per the article I shared with you) the concern there is the obesity level in kids involved. Either you aren't looking hard enough or choosing not to look. Although...I do recall presenting most of this data to you earlier so I'm guessing its the latter. By age...https://www.statista.com/statistics/1228610/number-covid-cases-hospitalized-canada-by-age/ People under 20 have made up 1.93% of the hospitalizations. By comorbidity ....there are a number of sites that address this but I feel one of the best is the Province of Alberta. (https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#comorbidities Your first link doesn't filter out for the percentages starting this year when variants that targeted younger people became dominant. Quote It shows cases, hospitalizations, ICU and deaths based on the number of comorbidities you have. 3.2% of deaths in Alberta came from people with no comorbidities. Roughly 20% of ICU, 24.5% of hospitalizations and 68.4% of cases. More important to note that 84% of deaths have involved people with hypertension (high blood pressure). Its not hard to go down to your local Shoppers Drug Mart and test your blood pressure. What would be even more interesting is to see more detailed info on comorbidities and age together. A number of articles I have read have commented that a significant number of young people in the ICU had comorbidities but I have yet to see stats on it. We can go down the rabbit hole of what the vaccine does but I see you have deflected away from the point I made in that having natural infection provides better protection than a vaccine. So why wouldn't it be added to the vaccine passport other than agenda? So we go to mandating vaccines from people that have some, difficult to define slate of co-morbidities. Much more complicated and unenforceable. Is a BMI above 30 a co-morbidity? Only if percentage of fat is above 30%? Much better/easier to mandate vaccines, since they're overwhelmingly safe. Quote
Accountability Now Posted August 31, 2021 Report Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Boges said: Your first link doesn't filter out for the percentages starting this year when variants that targeted younger people became dominant. Fair enough. The only thing I could find quickly for age demographics is from the CDC. Here's a link to that (https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_5.html) Just looking at the colored chart, it doesn't appear that the numbers change much for the younger groups. Where you see the difference is the decrease in the older groups. So again by comparison, there are more younger people by ratio. Of course, we shouldn't trust one's visual perspective so I ran some numbers by clicking on the graph. From November 14 to Jan 16 (Second Wave), the hospitalization numbers on average were 32.2 for 0-4, 50.6 for 5-17 and 1243 for 18-49. For the period thus far in the Delta Wave we see numbers on average of 30 for 0-4, 42.4 for 5-17 and 904 for 18-49. I will not argue that the numbers have gone down that probably isn't the case however its safe to say that the numbers according to the CDC don't show an objective increase in younger hospitalizations. Of course....that data doesn't sell newspapers now does it. 1 hour ago, Boges said: So we go to mandating vaccines from people that have some, difficult to define slate of co-morbidities. Much more complicated and unenforceable. Not mandating but educating. How many people actually know these stats? I would actually love to get in front of antivaxxers and say go get your blood pressure tested. Or do you have an auto immune disease? I would be the biggest advocate of vaccination for them. But the fear mongering for EVERYONE to get it regardless of your health status is ridiculous. 1 hour ago, Boges said: Is a BMI above 30 a co-morbidity? Only if percentage of fat is above 30%? BMI is outdated. Connor McDavid is considered overweight by the CDC calculator! LOL! I would think that it would be fat content but again I am not proposing mandates but rather education. If you think you are truly overweight then get the jab. 1 hour ago, Boges said: Much better/easier to mandate vaccines, since they're overwhelmingly safe. Except when vaccine immunity wanes after 4-6 months and you have elderly people walking around like they are bullet proof as they weren't actually educated. Just curious, how many booster shots are you going to end up taking? How many do you think the bulk of Canadians will take? Quote
Boges Posted August 31, 2021 Author Report Posted August 31, 2021 37 minutes ago, Accountability Now said: Not mandating but educating. How many people actually know these stats? I would actually love to get in front of antivaxxers and say go get your blood pressure tested. Or do you have an auto immune disease? I would be the biggest advocate of vaccination for them. But the fear mongering for EVERYONE to get it regardless of your health status is ridiculous. Bill Maher talks about this. It's another societal problem. People don't want to be told that they're unhealthy. It's fat shaming. And that goes across political spectrums. You think people who refuse to take a vaccine will take kindly to being told that they should eat less Red Meat? FREEDOM!!! Quote BMI is outdated. Connor McDavid is considered overweight by the CDC calculator! LOL! I would think that it would be fat content but again I am not proposing mandates but rather education. If you think you are truly overweight then get the jab. I agree, but there are few objective statistics that paint the whole picture of someone's health. Your bloodwork numbers can be fine, but you're overweight, you can be thin and very unhealthy. But you highlight that this really should be up to the individuals. That's not really how public health works. Quote Except when vaccine immunity wanes after 4-6 months and you have elderly people walking around like they are bullet proof as they weren't actually educated. Just curious, how many booster shots are you going to end up taking? How many do you think the bulk of Canadians will take? A lot of the Anti-Vax rhetoric surrounds not believing what studies say. Boosters for people with waning immunity is probably a good idea. Ontario will offer them for vulnerable people. A blanket booster, at this point, would be overreach. But that's just my opinion, what do the experts say? Quote
Infidel Dog Posted August 31, 2021 Report Posted August 31, 2021 4 hours ago, Boges said: In theory it should, but the risks of getting a vaccine are still next to non-existent even if you have been previously vaccinated. "Non-existent?" Depends on the data you're using. If you're one of these guys who parades around with your chest puffed out flashing the two or so weeks of data from Ontario like a flag of honor, maybe... But those of us who don't think Ontario is center of the universe and are open to considering what's happening in the rest of the world disagree: In Israel, where vaccine uptake has been very high due to restrictions on freedom for those who don’t comply,4 data show those who have received the COVID jab are 6.72 times more likely to get infected than people with natural immunity.5,6,7 The fully “vaccinated” also made up the bulk of serious cases and COVID-related deaths in July 2021, as illustrated in the graphs below.8 The red is unvaccinated, yellow refers to partially “vaccinated” and green fully “vaccinated” with two doses. By mid-August, 59% of serious cases were among those who had received two COVID injections,9 mirroring the data coming out of the U.K. Quote
Accountability Now Posted August 31, 2021 Report Posted August 31, 2021 6 minutes ago, Boges said: Bill Maher talks about this. It's another societal problem. People don't want to be told that they're unhealthy. It's fat shaming. And that goes across political spectrums. You think people who refuse to take a vaccine will take kindly to being told that they should eat less Red Meat? FREEDOM!!! Obesity is one component here. Again, hypertension is one of the largest comorbidities (is the largest in Alberta) and can be objectively measured. Even with obesity, I would suspect that the VAST majority of obese people already know they are. Getting educated on what comorbidiites are involved would not require a Fat Shaming exercise. You point out the facts and let them decide. Right now, MSM floods the news with videos of antivaxxers who died or are struggling and the majority of times they are clearly obese. In most other cases, you can dig to find they had some other issue going on. 11 minutes ago, Boges said: A lot of the Anti-Vax rhetoric surrounds not believing what studies say. I agree. Believe it or not, I have just as many issues dealing with antivaxxer idiots who quote memes rather than the data. With that said, I don't like listening to the media as they twist things. 19 minutes ago, Boges said: Boosters for people with waning immunity is probably a good idea. Ontario will offer them for vulnerable people. A blanket booster, at this point, would be overreach. But that's just my opinion, what do the experts say? The data supporting this is coming out of Israel and the UK. Israel was the first to the table for vaccines and had a large uptake. However at this point, 62% of their hospitalizations are double vaxxed. You can see the same trend happening in the UK as hospitalizations of the double vaxxed started at 6% back in June but have already climbed to 21% as of August. Right now the stats we see in Canada are showing low double vaxxed people in the hospital but based on the above examples, that will largely shift by December or so. Hence the need for boosters. Right now, the experts agree that boosters for elderly and immunocompromised are needed but are mixed on blanket boosters. Right now Canada and even the US are just entering their Delta phase and the hope is it will go away before the talk of boosters are needed however that doesn't seem to be the case in the UK as they continue to average about 30k cases per day. Quote
Boges Posted August 31, 2021 Author Report Posted August 31, 2021 4 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said: "Non-existent?" Depends on the data you're using. If you're one of these guys who parades around with your chest puffed out flashing the two or so weeks of data from Ontario like a flag of honor, maybe... But those of us who don't think Ontario is center of the universe and are open to considering what's happening in the rest of the world disagree: In Israel, where vaccine uptake has been very high due to restrictions on freedom for those who don’t comply,4 data show those who have received the COVID jab are 6.72 times more likely to get infected than people with natural immunity.5,6,7 The fully “vaccinated” also made up the bulk of serious cases and COVID-related deaths in July 2021, as illustrated in the graphs below.8 The red is unvaccinated, yellow refers to partially “vaccinated” and green fully “vaccinated” with two doses. By mid-August, 59% of serious cases were among those who had received two COVID injections,9 mirroring the data coming out of the U.K. So do you draw the conclusion that the vaccinations are making the infections worse? Or could it be fully vaccinated people who are getting infected and sick are part of an already vulnerable group? And where we see Hospitalizations, without the vaccine, you may be seeing a death. We'll also see skewed data when the majority of the population is vaccinated. The unvaccinated is a smaller pool of people. Though in Canada we're seeing that a healthy majority of the people testing positive are unvaccinated. I suspect this could be because you can only get a test, covered by Insurance, if you're symptomatic. I don't pretend to claim that vaccination prevents infection. That's a new talking point from the Anti Vax crowd. The more people getting infected, and not knowing it, provides more evidence that the vaccine works. Quote
Infidel Dog Posted August 31, 2021 Report Posted August 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, Boges said: So do you draw the conclusion that the vaccinations are making the infections worse? Or could it be fully vaccinated people who are getting infected and sick are part of an already vulnerable group? And where we see Hospitalizations, without the vaccine, you may be seeing a death. We'll also see skewed data when the majority of the population is vaccinated. The unvaccinated is a smaller pool of people. Though in Canada we're seeing that a healthy majority of the people testing positive are unvaccinated. I suspect this could be because you can only get a test, covered by Insurance, if you're symptomatic. I don't pretend to claim that vaccination prevents infection. That's a new talking point from the Anti Vax crowd. The more people getting infected, and not knowing it, provides more evidence that the vaccine works. I'll spell out my conclusion for you so you don't misunderstand. First of all I'm not anti-vaxx. If you want to get vaccinated, go for it. I'm anti-mask, anti-mandate, anti-lockdown and anti-vaccine passport. And I can't remember if you were the one who said people like me are ignorant of the studies but if whoever that was wants I'll give them a couple weeks reading of studies that support my argument. Think I'm bluffing? Go ahead, call it. As far as the vaccinated vs unvaccinated argument go the data is inconclusive as to how much danger of infection and hospitalization or death there is from one or the other. But one thing is conclusive. Both categories have risks. The vaccinated also have some risk from adverse reaction up to and including death. Current studies are showing immunity to survivors is superior to vaccine immunity. So don't be telling me you're the king of data and therefore need to lock me up and wrap a useless cloth around my face because I don't choose the particular risk you do. If your jab is really keeping you safe from infection or failing that hospitalization or death, good for you. But if it's not that's not my fault. Quote
Infidel Dog Posted August 31, 2021 Report Posted August 31, 2021 Also somebody was talking like they wanted people dragged out of their houses to get them jabbed. If they could get that to happen and an adverse reaction caused say heart failure, as sometimes happens and the person died then in my opinion that's murder. Quote
Accountability Now Posted August 31, 2021 Report Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Boges said: Though in Canada we're seeing that a healthy majority of the people testing positive are unvaccinated. I suspect this could be because you can only get a test, covered by Insurance, if you're symptomatic. I would also suspect that case numbers might not be truly represented as vaccinated people will feel milder or no symptoms yet still spread it. So their number may actually be quite a bit larger than what is represented. To add to this, the PHE case numbers also resemble the hospitalization numbers in that back in June, the double vaxxed were only 7% of the cases but now make up close to 20%. Immunity is waning and that will be the same here. Of course, no one seems to talk about deaths anymore. I'm guessing its because the data doesn't work for the vaccination cause in that metric. Quote
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