It Begins. . . Quebec and NYC to implement Vaccine Passports.

[Shady]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

Did I not just cite the CDC that said there are studies that say it is more severe? 

Yes, “some data suggests”.  It’s really irresponsible for a supposed esteemed institution like the CDC to speculate on something like that based on limited data and non peer reviewed studies.  I’ve actually seen data suggesting that the delta variant isn’t as severe, causing normal cold symptoms.

[Accountability Now]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

And a higher vaccination rate nationally. 

Not really. The time the UK started their Detla uptick was around June 15. Their national vaccination rate was 45% fully vaxxed and 63% partially. The US started their uptick around July 15 and they were at 48% fully vaxxed and 56% partially. 

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Shady said:

Yes, “some data suggests”.  It’s really irresponsible for a supposed esteemed institution like the CDC to speculate on something like that based on limited data and non peer reviewed studies.  I’ve actually seen data suggesting that the delta variant isn’t as severe, causing normal cold symptoms.

They're citing studies. Cite your studies that it's just the common cold. 

Downplaying the virus is exactly what the Right-Wing did early in the virus and it's causes so much death in the US already. 

I don't expect most people who are young an healthy will get very sick either, but some will so everyone should protect themselves. 

The US is seeing a "legit" wave in low vaccinated states because they've downplayed the virus and played up the risks of the vaccine. 

 

[Accountability Now]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

Obesity is rampant in the US. 

Should the obese be forced to get vaccinated? 

Um....I'm the one stating no one should be forced to get vaccinated. Why would I say that obese people should?

My point is very simple...the data clearly shows who are at risk. If you aren't in those groups then you can make an educated decision on whether you want the vaccine or not. Pretending that a 20 year unvaccinated kid is more of a risk than a 70 year double vaxxed obese person is the epitome of stupidity. 

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Not really. The time the UK started their Detla uptick was around June 15. Their national vaccination rate was 45% fully vaxxed and 63% partially. The US started their uptick around July 15 and they were at 48% fully vaxxed and 56% partially. 

National numbers don't mean anything if there are regions with high vaccination rates and regions with low vaccinations rates. The national numbers are just averages. 

For example a state like New York has a pretty high vaccination rate, they're not seeing much of an issue. While Southern states are seeing Hospitals overwhelmed. 

[Accountability Now]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Obesity isn't the only comorbidity and sometimes people don't even know if they're susceptible to dying from Covid. 

Never said it was the only one. Just used it as an example. 

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

  And sometimes it kills people with no health issues.

Show me the numbers of people it kills with no health issues. Also...google "Flu kills healthy man" and you will find numerous examples of that too yet we didn't shut anything down for the flu. We know what COVID is doing now and can act accordingly. 

 

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

  Getting vaccinated is something people can do to virtually eliminate the risk of dying from Covid. 

Tell that to the heathy people who died from the vaccine. 

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Show me the numbers of people it kills with no health issues. Also...google "Flu kills healthy man" and you will find numerous examples of that too yet we didn't shut anything down for the flu. We know what COVID is doing now and can act accordingly. 

And we will again when/if Hospitalizations spike. 

BTW Private Business is already way out ahead on this. 

https://www.680news.com/2021/08/09/ontario-vaccine-passport-doug-ford/

[Accountability Now]

7 minutes ago, Boges said:

National numbers don't mean anything if there are regions with high vaccination rates and regions with low vaccinations rates. The national numbers are just averages. 

For example a state like New York has a pretty high vaccination rate, they're not seeing much of an issue. While Southern states are seeing Hospitals overwhelmed. 

LMAO....you were the one chirping about higher NATIONAL rates. Read your own argument. 

The fact is every organization oversimplifies the data which causes confusion. For a proper comparison, you would need to break groups down by age, comorbidity and possibly even race. At that point then you can add vaccination status to the mix to see what effect it has.  AGAIN....a vaccinated person in their 70s is at much higher risk than an unvaccinated person in their 20s yet they are viewed as the exact same. 

[Accountability Now]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

And we will again when/if Hospitalizations spike. 

BTW Private Business is already way out ahead on this. 

https://www.680news.com/2021/08/09/ontario-vaccine-passport-doug-ford/

Not sure what your point is here. Businesses will do whatever they need to stay functional. Its not their way of agreeing with the science, its their way of staying profitable.  

The government also gets forced to make decisions too based on lobbying. Doesn't make it right just political. 

[Shady]

16 minutes ago, Boges said:

They're citing studies. Cite your studies that it's just the common cold. 

Downplaying the virus is exactly what the Right-Wing did early in the virus and it's causes so much death in the US already. 

I don't expect most people who are young an healthy will get very sick either, but some will so everyone should protect themselves. 

The US is seeing a "legit" wave in low vaccinated states because they've downplayed the virus and played up the risks of the vaccine. 

 

Which studies are they citing?

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (WBRC) - Doctors say symptoms of the Delta variant may look a bit different than the original COVID-19 strain.

The symptoms can overlap making it hard to tell which variation you have, and can also look a lot like the common cold or allergies.

“Headaches, fevers, shortness of breath, those are the things that people are going to commonly have, but what we see with the Delta variant so far has been that you’re a little be more likely to have a sore throat, more likely to have sinus congestion, and a little bit more likely to have a runny nose,” said Medical Director of Disease Control for the Jefferson County Department of Health, Dr. Wesley Willeford.
https://www.wbrc.com/2021/08/11/doctors-say-delta-variant-has-different-symptoms-than-original-covid-19-strain/

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Accountability Now said:

LMAO....you were the one chirping about higher NATIONAL rates. Read your own argument. 

Cite where I "chirped" about national rates. 

 

Quote

The fact is every organization oversimplifies the data which causes confusion. For a proper comparison, you would need to break groups down by age, comorbidity and possibly even race. At that point then you can add vaccination status to the mix to see what effect it has.  AGAIN....a vaccinated person in their 70s is at much higher risk than an unvaccinated person in their 20s yet they are viewed as the exact same. 

And you've disregarded stats showing that younger people are making up a larger percentage of cases with anecdotes about old people being locked in their homes. 

The truth is unvaccinated people make up a fraction of the population but they still contribute overwhelmingly to the case count. If Hospitalization rises, it'll be the unvaccinated that will take the blame. Even if they're 20-year-old healthy people. It's those people that are contributing to the spread. 

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Not sure what your point is here. Businesses will do whatever they need to stay functional. Its not their way of agreeing with the science, its their way of staying profitable.  

The government also gets forced to make decisions too based on lobbying. Doesn't make it right just political. 

Many private businesses in the US have already mandated vaccination. Ditto with Universities. All before any political body has mandated them. 

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Shady said:

Which studies are they citing?

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (WBRC) - Doctors say symptoms of the Delta variant may look a bit different than the original COVID-19 strain.

The symptoms can overlap making it hard to tell which variation you have, and can also look a lot like the common cold or allergies.

“Headaches, fevers, shortness of breath, those are the things that people are going to commonly have, but what we see with the Delta variant so far has been that you’re a little be more likely to have a sore throat, more likely to have sinus congestion, and a little bit more likely to have a runny nose,” said Medical Director of Disease Control for the Jefferson County Department of Health, Dr. Wesley Willeford.
https://www.wbrc.com/2021/08/11/doctors-say-delta-variant-has-different-symptoms-than-original-covid-19-strain/

Are you claiming they're lying? 

That's not a study BTW. That's anecdotal. 

It's also just stating that some of the symptoms are different. Not less severe.

[Shady]

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

Many private businesses in the US have already mandated vaccination. Ditto with Universities. All before any political body has mandated them. 

Do you not understand that a private business has more latitude in what it can demand?

[Boges]

Just now, Shady said:

Do you not understand that a private business has more latitude in what it can demand?

Sure. But they also want a standardized way of proving vaccine. 

They know the unvaccinated only make up a fringe of the population. 

[Shady]

Just now, Boges said:

Are you claiming they're lying? 

That's not a study BTW. That's anecdotal. 

It's also just stating that some of the symptoms are different. Not less severe.

“Some data suggests” is a problematic term to use.  Because some data suggests the opposite.

[Boges]

8 minutes ago, Shady said:

“Some data suggests” is a problematic term to use.  Because some data suggests the opposite.

I believe this is the study cited. 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.05.21260050v3

Quote

 

Methods We created a retrospective cohort of people in Ontario testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 and screened for VOCs, with dates of test report between February 7 and June 27, 2021 (n=212,332). We constructed mixed effects logistic regression models with hospitalization, ICU admission, and death as outcome variables. Models were adjusted for age, sex, time, vaccination status, comorbidities, and pregnancy status. Health units were included as random intercepts.

Results Compared to non-VOC SARS-CoV-2 strains, the adjusted elevation in risk associated with N501Y-positive variants was 52% (43-62%) for hospitalization; 89% (67-116%) for ICU admission; and 51% (30-74%) for death. Increases with Delta variant were more pronounced: 108% (80-138%) for hospitalization; 234% (164-331%) for ICU admission; and 132% (47-230%) for death.

 

 

[Accountability Now]

13 minutes ago, Boges said:

Cite where I "chirped" about national rates. 

Ok...

3 hours ago, Boges said:

And a higher vaccination rate nationally. 

 

14 minutes ago, Boges said:

And you've disregarded stats showing that younger people are making up a larger percentage of cases with anecdotes about old people being locked in their homes. 

You're really struggling keeping the arguments together.  I disputed your claim that ratios shouldn't be used and instead objective numbers should be used. I then showed you the stats from England where they proved that younger people rates have not changed from the previous waves.  Here it is AGAIN so you don't trip over yourself

Quote

 

Hospital admission rates continue to be higher among older age groups but were much lower in the week ending 1 August 2021 than the mid-January peak (week ending 17 January 2021). Among those aged 45 to 54 years, admissions were one quarter of their mid-January peak while among those aged 85 years and over they were almost 13 times lower.

However, admission rates in younger age groups were similar to those seen in mid-January.

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/hospitals

 

 

[Boges]

10 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

You're really struggling keeping the arguments together.  I disputed your claim that ratios shouldn't be used and instead objective numbers should be used. I then showed you the stats from England where they proved that younger people rates have not changed from the previous waves.  Here it is AGAIN so you don't trip over yourself

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/hospitals

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations

The rate of vaccination across the UK is pretty standard. This is similar to provinces across Canada. 

While in the US there are regions with pathetically low vaccination rates. Those states are also the ones that have, not only removed public health measure but banned them. So their national numbers are more of an average than an overview of vaccine coverage. 

So to make a finer point here. I do believe this "wave" will be similar to the UK in terms of Hospitalizations and major sickness. I think we agree on a lot of that. 

Ultimately we're having a hypothetical argument on what to do if Hospitalization does become an issue again. In Ontario those stats are being measured and reported daily, so we can see who's driving the infection. Which is good. 

I think Vaccine passports will have to happen, because dividing people by their chances of getting sick is fraught with issues. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Boges

[Accountability Now]

6 minutes ago, Boges said:

I think Vaccine passports will have to happen, because dividing people by their chances of getting sick is fraught with issues. 

I agree with everything you said except this part which was ironically the first point we engaged on. If we follow the UK data and from other countries (other than US) you will see that the percentages of vaccinated cases, hospitalizations and death are still there. Its tough to draw hard lines on something like a vaccine passport when the very thing you are basing it on shows such data.  With that said....we will have to wait and see.

Good chat.

[Shady]

Health is earned.  Living unhealthy is a privilege.

 

[Shady]

It absolutely is getting out of control.

 

[Boges]

19 minutes ago, Shady said:

It absolutely is getting out of control.

 

That's highly anecdotal. 

Most media I consume still contends the vaccine is very effective against Delta in prevent sickness, hospitalization and death. 

Shame on any outlet making people less likely to want to get the vaccine. 

[OftenWrong]

On 8/13/2021 at 1:46 PM, Boges said:

Most media I consume still contends the vaccine is very effective against Delta in prevent sickness, hospitalization and death. 

Shame on any outlet making people less likely to want to get the vaccine. 

Wasnt it the same media that advised people to take astrazenica, then later when it was cancelled to mix it with moderna? Even pfizer to mix with moderna? Those people are rather fucked up now.

Shame on the government for screwing up the message numerous times, and for screwing Canadians who followed their advice in good faith. Theyre the reason people who are well educated m, even health careworkers, dont want the shot.

[Zeitgeist]

How did we end up in a situation where an illness that has a lower death rate than the flu for children and from which the vast majority of adults are protected by vaccination is causing us to stay apart from each other in reduced capacity settings and wear masks?   Why isn’t government being honest?  A lot of unnecessary suffering is being maintained for the sake of sensationalism.