Should it be illegal for government to prevent businesses from operating?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, oops said:

Many people believe that the government restrictions have prevented deaths from covid 19. They have not. While no deaths have been prevented large numbers of non viral deaths have resulted  from these actions.

Maybe you should let the WHO know.  You could save a lot of lives by telling them the right way to do things.

 

[oops]

The measures of course are not preventative. they are meant to flatten the curve. 

If you take a look at the curve you will see that the curve called Without preventative measures rises more sharply, and falls more sharply. There is a point where the curves cross resulting in fewer infections from the  unrestricted curve. The measures have however resulted in many deaths from cancer, heart disease and drug overdoses.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, oops said:

The measures of course are not preventative. they are meant to flatten the curve. 

If you take a look at the curve you will see that the curve called Without preventative measures rises more sharply, and falls more sharply. There is a point where the curves cross resulting in fewer infections from the  unrestricted curve. The measures have however resulted in many deaths from cancer, heart disease and drug overdoses.

Yes, but it's interesting to note that along with the reduction in cases, such that health care facilities were better able to cope, no lives were saved.  Also interesting is that the restrictions didn't actually prevent any cases from developing that would have developed without them.  (Of which some would have resulted in fatalities, of course)

Like I said, you really should share all this with the authorities.

[Shady]

This is a chart that Branch Covidians refuse to acknowledge.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Shady said:

This is a chart that Branch Covidians refuse to acknowledge.

I don't see why it is so hard to acknowledge.  It's a very bad virus, and it will have very bad effects.  The scale is questionable, as is its potential variability given a different response to the virus, but I see no problem with acknowledging the devasting effect this virus has had on all levels of society and the health care system.  Everywhere.

I wonder, where did you read/hear of people denying these effects?

[oops]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

Yes, but it's interesting to note that along with the reduction in cases, such that health care facilities were better able to cope, no lives were saved.

The restrictions in fact made the health care facilities less able to cope. These facilities we temporarily closed meaning that they did not cope at all. Cancer and heart disease are the 2 leading causes of death in Canada. We have made great inroads in treating these conditions, however serious cases left untreated usually result in death. During the lock downs many cases were left untreated resulting in many deaths. Of course many sufferers of these conditions were not even able to be evaluated, and have treatments scheduled. This situation will become worse, because increasing government debt will mean less funding for healthcare in the future. Of course when the hospitals did reopen they were less able to cope with now increasing waiting lists needing more resources, not less.

 

There has never been a large ratio of covid cases per hospital.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, oops said:

The restrictions in fact made the health care facilities less able to cope. These facilities we temporarily closed meaning that they did not cope at all. Cancer and heart disease are the 2 leading causes of death in Canada. We have made great inroads in treating these conditions, however serious cases left untreated usually result in death. During the lock downs many cases were left untreated resulting in many deaths. Of course many sufferers of these conditions were not even able to be evaluated, and have treatments scheduled. This situation will become worse, because increasing government debt will mean less funding for healthcare in the future. Of course when the hospitals did reopen they were less able to cope with now increasing waiting lists needing more resources, not less.

 

There has never been a large ratio of covid cases per hospital.

Yes, there is no argument there.  In dispute is the contention that government restrictions have prevented no deaths from covid 19.

[oops]

27 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yes, there is no argument there.  In dispute is the contention that government restrictions have prevented no deaths from covid 19.

My contention is that a delayed death is not a prevented death. The deaths resulting for the government actions on the other hand were totally preventable. The cruelest of these being the isolation of many of our seniors has resulted in them abandoned and dying of loneliness.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, oops said:

My contention is that a delayed death is not a prevented death. The deaths resulting for the government actions on the other hand were totally preventable. The cruelest of these being the isolation of many of our seniors has resulted in them abandoned and dying of loneliness.

No, you did say that government restrictions have not prevented any deaths.  That's wrong.

Given that all deaths are delayed deaths, that's irrelevant.

[Army Guy]

What is your plan ? , you have made it clear your against government plans todate. So what is your plan ? And yet you have not given us the solution. All one has to do is look at major US city centers, with extremely high amounts of Covid cases, and look at how full their medical centers are, how exhausted their staff are, how they keep the dead  stacked up in freezer trailers until they can be buried..

Thats what happens when you don't have a plan.... it's not rocket science, someone had to do something , Was it perfect no it was not, could they have acted faster yes, could they have spent less yes, fact is something had to be done, and yes it cost lives to get it done...was it done on purpose, as much as I'd like to blame the liberals Justin is not smart enough to make this work world wide...

[oops]

On 12/10/2020 at 3:41 PM, Army Guy said:

What is your plan ? , you have made it clear your against government plans todate. So what is your plan ? And yet you have not given us the solution. All one has to do is look at major US city centers, with extremely high amounts of Covid cases, and look at how full their medical centers are, how exhausted their staff are, how they keep the dead  stacked up in freezer trailers until they can be buried..

Thats what happens when you don't have a plan.... it's not rocket science, someone had to do something , Was it perfect no it was not, could they have acted faster yes, could they have spent less yes, fact is something had to be done, and yes it cost lives to get it done...was it done on purpose, as much as I'd like to blame the liberals Justin is not smart enough to make this work world wide...

I am going to assume that you were addressing me. My plan would be to stop fighting the wrong virus.

I would stop making policies that are killing our elderly, robbing our healthcare and education systems by throwing money that could be going to their funding and instead using it paying people to be idle. The government has caused us to become a more sedentary society lessening our health and well being, they have made us people that see others not as neighbours, but as virus incubators that we need to keep as far away from as possible.

 

Our government has closed our hospitals, and schools and attacked our businesses, all because they are unable to see beyond the end of their noses. If intent could be proven, these would be criminal acts, but I believe they are just inept.

 

I believe that they are revisiting the efforts to fight the 1918 H1N1 influenza pandemic because they have yet to realize that this is not the 1918 influenza virus.

 

If Justin had ran on a platform telling the electorate that he would turn the major decisions of running our nation over to unelected doctors and cheerlead the premiers as they locked our children out of their schools, closed our hospitals leaving our neighbours to die because they would now be refused the treatments they had been expecting, maybe even promised, then he would likely be teaching drama 2000 miles away from our nations capital, and we would all be the better for it.

 

The 1918 H1N1 virus killed the old and young alike. Young adults with healthy immune systems were as likely to die as older people with weaker immune systems. The doctors discovered that this was because the virus triggered an immune response called a cytokine storm.

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140227142250.htm

Scientists have mapped key elements of a severe immune overreaction -— a “cytokine storm” -— that can both sicken and kill patients who are infected with certain strains of flu virus. A cytokine storm is an overproduction of immune cells and their activating compounds (cytokines), which, in a flu infection, is often associated with a surge of activated immune cells into the lungs. The resulting lung inflammation and fluid buildup can lead to respiratory distress and can be contaminated by a secondary bacterial pneumonia -- often enhancing the mortality in patients.

 

Covid 19 does not cause this reaction. Covid 19 is a virus that causes mild to moderate symptoms in most people, and 99% of people living outside of long term care homes recover from it. After 8 months of restrictions do our officials not know this. Are they lying to us, or simply incompetent. Our efforts should be focused on long term care homes where it could do some good.

My plan would be to not lock our children out of their schools, and tell them that they are about to die. I believe we should provide them with  best education we can and tell them that their future is full of promise, and then working as best we can to make that true.

 

My plan would be to not close the hospitals, leaving people to die from cancer, heart disease and other ailments. My plan would be to continue doing elective surgeries like hip and knee replacements helping people to remain active and healthy.

 

My plan would be to keep our businesses open and productive, rather than shutting them down resulting in a 38% decline in gdp (the goods and services that our economy produces).  I would ally myself with our businesses, not be their persecutor.

 

If I was the leader of a nation that had accumulated a debt of close to $1 trillion in it's first 153 years, I would not borrow another $500billion, increasing that by half. I would make my goal to reduce the debt, and not burden our children with a debt that will rob them and their descendants of the resources to provide them with the education, healthcare and social services that we enjoyed.

 

I would not encourage people to hide alone in their homes and telling them that they should be shun their neighbours because associating with them could be fatal.

 

I would actually try to understand the problem, before I took action fighting shadows, while that destroyed so much of what our parents worked so hard to leave for us.

 

I would encourage people to get out meet their neighbours, live life, make memories, and care for children and elderly.

 

If your post was intended for me, I hope that answers your question, if it wasn't you can ignore all that drivel.

[Cannucklehead]

16 minutes ago, oops said:

I would actually try to understand the problem, before I took action fighting shadows, while that destroyed so much of what our parents worked so hard to leave for us.

 

I would encourage people to get out meet their neighbours, live life, make memories, and care for children and elderly.

 

 

And therein is the problem.  You can spread covid to your friends and family if you have it, and you can have it and show no symptoms.  How can we deal with something like that?   

You see what's happening in the u.s?  

 

The government is in a no win scenario here and is choosing the lesser of two evils.  

[OftenWrong]

An invisible enemy that no one can see or detect, yet it is all around us. All pervasive, all threatening, deadly, silent killer.

Now only the government can protect us!  
 

[oops]

42 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

And therein is the problem.  You can spread covid to your friends and family if you have it, and you can have it and show no symptoms.  How can we deal with something like that?   

You see what's happening in the u.s?  

 

The government is in a no win scenario here and is choosing the lesser of two evils.  

Viruses have been around for many millions years, long before mankind. They have survived for so long, by not killing their hosts. For some reason you believe that  you  are more able to hide from the virus than it is able to find you. I find that highly questionable. If you missed the graph posted earlier, perhaps you should take a look at it. If you have looked at it and don't  understand it, find someone who can explain it to you. The government measures are meant to flatten the curve. The hope is to slow  the spread of the virus, not prevent it. This just makes the crisis last longer. By crisis I mean irrational government actions, not the virus.  It is time to become responsible adults, and to look to the future and try to provide a better one for our children.

Edited December 12, 2020 by oops

[Cannucklehead]

16 minutes ago, oops said:

Viruses have been around for many millions years, long before mankind. They have survived for so long, by not killing their hosts. For some reason you believe that  you  are more able to hide from the virus than it is able to find you. I find that highly questionable. If you missed the graph posted earlier, perhaps you should take a look at it. If you have looked at it and don't  understand it, find someone who can explain it to you. The government measures are meant to flatten the curve. The hope is to slow  the spread of the virus, not prevent it. This just makes the crisis last longer. By crisis I mean irrational government actions, not the virus.  It is time to become responsible adults, and to look to the future and try to provide a better one for our children.

Yes, to slow it down so as not to overwhelm the health care system.   

 

Let's just say they go the short way.  First, we've seen people get infected twice so the herd immunity is out.  Then we get a mass influx of infected people with covid, on top of the regular load of cancer, heart problems, etc.  

 

What happens then?  What happens if some other emergency happens on top of that?  Say a natural disaster or another virus altogether?  

[oops]

36 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

Yes, to slow it down so as not to overwhelm the health care system.   

 

Let's just say they go the short way.  First, we've seen people get infected twice so the herd immunity is out.  Then we get a mass influx of infected people with covid, on top of the regular load of cancer, heart problems, etc.  

 

What happens then?  What happens if some other emergency happens on top of that?  Say a natural disaster or another virus altogether?  

If you believe that herd immunity is out, then I have to assume that you believe efforts to develop a vaccine are a waste of time. If people have been infected twice, perhaps it is because there are two strains of the virus. Of course slowing the spread is likely to result in time for more strains to develop.

Edited December 12, 2020 by oops

[Cannucklehead]

7 minutes ago, oops said:

If you believe that herd immunity is out, then I have to assume that you believe efforts to develop a vaccine are a waste of time. If people have been infected twice, perhaps it is because there are two strains of the virus. Of course slowing the spread is likely to result in time for more strains to develop.

https://www.ems1.com/coronavirus-covid-19/articles/covid-19-reinfection-faqs-eqEXSRiUdxqy1Hgp/

 

 

Data is accumulating that true reinfection can occur in SARS-CoV-2. In October, Lancet published one of the first U.S. reinfections in a 25-year-old male patient from Nevada [1]. There were 48 days between his illnesses, and his second round was actually much worse than the initial (requiring hospitalization). Other case reports have shown timing between episodes of infection ranging from 63-143 days [2-5].

 

 

DOES THIS MEAN SARS-COV-2 IS MUTATING?

These genomic differences between infections are useful to rule out latent infection/relapse, but they do not suggest mutation due to immune evasion. Immunologists still feel that vaccine candidates should match all circulating variants [6].

 

Hopefully they are correct.  

[oops]

12 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

https://www.ems1.com/coronavirus-covid-19/articles/covid-19-reinfection-faqs-eqEXSRiUdxqy1Hgp/

 

 

Data is accumulating that true reinfection can occur in SARS-CoV-2. In October, Lancet published one of the first U.S. reinfections in a 25-year-old male patient from Nevada [1]. There were 48 days between his illnesses, and his second round was actually much worse than the initial (requiring hospitalization). Other case reports have shown timing between episodes of infection ranging from 63-143 days [2-5].

 

 

DOES THIS MEAN SARS-COV-2 IS MUTATING?

These genomic differences between infections are useful to rule out latent infection/relapse, but they do not suggest mutation due to immune evasion. Immunologists still feel that vaccine candidates should match all circulating variants [6].

 

Hopefully they are correct.  

It seems that they ruled out latent infection, meaning that they did not believe it was a reinfection. It seems that genomic differences enabled the virus to evade the immune system. Is this not a different strain, play with the semantics all you wish. I also believe that a vaccine should match all circulating variants.  It means that we have to make an effective vaccine not dismiss the need for one.  When I was growing up measles, mumps and chicken pox were common. This was not true when my children were young. The reason for this is immunity provided by vaccines. Anti vaccinators are doing a disservice to all of us.